House of Coel Hen/Morgan

[Ryan Davies]

I felt another thread was getting slightly derailed.

Posting the relevant previous posts here before replying.

 

[Ryan Davies]

I think Wales is going to be with a High King again. If an heir male line is down from Cunedda with no female breaks, the High King's Seat can be reestablished. I wish I knew the YDNA of King Cunedda.

Did you know Alt Clud is named for an Aeolian island? The Cymry are from there some.

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[Ryan Davies]

Cymraeg is from an old language called Lukka or Lycian. This was one of the oldest Greek cultures. If one restores the gamma after the C, it is Cgmraeg. Cg means 'all together' according to the Luwian dictionary. The mraig part is from the settling of the Amyrgian culture during the late Bronze Age. We Morgans and also the Cymraeg (MRG) are named for them. They come from many parts of the Mediterranean Sea area. Most of the Cymry come from a mountain in the Anatolian Riviera called Mount Chimaera. They were mighty fighters. They were most mighty under King Priam when he wrested Troy or Wilusa from the Hatti. Across from Mount Chimaera is an island called Amorgos Island...the summer palace area of King Minos. King Minos settled Arcadia, an area South of the Pelopponese. The Morgans were the princes of Arcadia called the Oenotrians. They had ruled Calabria also (South Italy) since around 2000 B. C. The Cymry are the trading friends of our people forever. Morges and Amorges were names among our people. The two cultures have been blended so that most Cymry have Morgan blood. This information is coming together rapidly thanks to recent excavations of settlements of antiquity . The Y DNA Studies today are helping so much also.

During the time of Cyrus the Great a rapid second or third migration of our people went from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Epirus, Corfu, Calabria, Sicily and the Larian Lake ( Lake Como) (Cymraeg scholars will remember Ap Larian, an ancient king down from Morgan).

More than 500,000 people had to vacate Lydia and Lycia to make way for a new Persian Satrapy not conducive to remaining free. Our people had founded the system of democracy based on the polis (later refined by the Athenians). They hated being slaves.This system had self rule in the polis with an upper organization called a league. A king governed all. We have a cool most ancient history!

Just thought somebody out there might want to know about this Good information.

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[Ryan Davies]

Is it true that the first clan of Wales is Cunedda? I found that in an old book and wondered if it is consensus today?

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[Ryan Davies]

Going that far back into pre-history you get myth at best. It is interesting insofar as it informs what the Britons thought of themselves, but in order to (re-)create a monarchy? Nah, not useful at all.




Again, too far into pre-history and wishful thinking. Plus you need a sexy story to get people interested. We've either got die hard republicans (Plaid), Die hard Monarchists who love Liz, Charles, Wills and you're not going to convince either of those sets I don't think. So it's everyone else and to get them you need to give a convincing reason!


We know that the House of Aberffraw (and a few other Kingdoms) existed and theoretically a male (undisputed) line heir and possibly a female line (you can see from this thread that it's disputed) could possibly claim that it was there's by rights. It's been done before – see the Sir John Wynn.


It's a story that the we could grasp and appreciate; Llewellyn the Last killed by the English, his daughter imprisoned for life, his brother declared King and within 6 months captured and became the first person of noble blood to be hung, drawn and quartered. The English king offers our people a Prince of Wales who speaks no word of English and then presents his baby son, taking the piss out of us. The English Kings have always claimed ownership of the title “Prince of Wales” and given it to their heirs on this right of conquest, Charles took the House of Aberffraw's coat of arms as his own and put an English crown over it.


The House of Aberffraw were the last dynastic, native Royal House in Wales and ruled for over 700 years. One of their descendants claims it and it's sexy.


We know that Owain Glyndŵr fought a rebellion and controlled much of Wales. He's our William Wallace and Robin Hood rolled into one. Universities have been named after him, statues built and his coat of arms is seen at sports stadiums and a symbol of independence. Even republicans revere him. One of his descendants claims and it's sexy.


A welsh Lord or Baronet or something who's family has been posh and lived in a castle for a few hundred years is made King? Let's be honest, we'll probably forget he had no right to the title and it was an English king who made is ancestor Lord whatshisface. It's still sexy.


DNA test to show that you're in the male line of a possibly mythical person and your ancestors once ruled Troy? Not sexy, no resonance with your average man on the street either in the valleys, the cities or up north.


Plus, you're never going to find DNA tests that show decent from Cunedda as he has no known male line descendants. You'd need at least 2 known lines with no infidelity in order to find or verify others.






Not even close. Maybe they mean the pre-eminent royal house? In that case I'd say they may have a case.
Cunedda probably existed but some people think his name might have been given retrospectively and that it was a title. He (or the person/people he represents if he's a myth) came from within the Roman walls (or just outside on the Pict side) between 350-450 AD. The Romans used the space as a buffer state or a semi-autonomous province.


Cunedda's father, grandfather and great grandfather all had Roman names and were probably professional Roman soldiers, possibly of British decent. His grandfather was certainly a commander over part of the land past Hadrian's wall and the assumption is that command passed to his son and eventually his grandson Cunedda. It is possible that they were British chiefs who the Roman's tried to butter up by giving imperial rank, but unlikely IMO in that Cunedda's great-grandfather wasn't a Roman commander but still has a Latin name.


He travelled with a warband and drove a certain Irish/Pict tribe out of north Wales. There's also evidence of him fighting in South Wales (a hill name).


That's pretty much all we know. Geoffrey of Monmouth claimed a lot of other stuff, but you have to be really careful with him and assume that it's more likely to be fiction than fact.


There were already welsh tribes in Wales before Cunedda and they stayed after he settled. They were there when the Romans first invaded. No clans. Tribes and Royal Houses though.

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[Ryan Davies]

Cunedda has direct male line descendants amongst the Morgans. Abba Father has made them come down all the way from Noah. It is just a fabulous miracle and truth that the family exist at all.

We should be glad that the Cymry have kept such careful records. We would not have much respect for our family if we were not able to enjoy studying about them and how they have served God.

I believe the tears and bravery today should be counted as Joy. I believe the Saints of Wales in former generations have striven to speak the truth. Whatever any Country chooses as a form of government should be in Christ.

Did you know that America is named for Amerigo Vespucci, a descendant of Amorges, son of Italus, the Oenotrian Greek king who unified Italy? The Cymry came through Italy to Aquitaine to Dol to Wales. The Cymry were the Greeks who had swept into many cities of Italy, but especially a city called Velch. They coexisted with Etruscans, Romans, and others in the melting pot known as the Roman Empire. They married in with the Roman Emperors. Keeping pedigrees has made the historical tracings possible.

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[Ryan Davies]

Right...

I think I realise where you are coming from. By "old" you don't mean Geoffrey of Monmouth, I don't think.

Would I be right in thinking you're getting your stuff either from Iolo Morganwg (Who historians widely think was a forger, but I think may be wrong to dismiss entirely out hand) or the more recent and popular Adrian Gilbert, Alan Wilson and Baram Blacket ("writers" of books like "The Holy Kingdom", "The quest for the real King Arthur" and "The Orion Mystery")?

If it's the later then they are mildly entertaining but full of rubbish, and no serious historian takes them seriously. From memory some of there arguments seems to be based on nothing except speculation.

Is the general premise that the Kings of Morgannwg were male line descendants of Cunedda, they were the true "high Kings" of the Britons and that they are survived in the male line by people with the surname Morgan?

If that's even close then I don't think I'm going to convince you otherwise or that this thread is the place for it.

Enjoy your journey into Welsh history and keep in mind that not everything everyone says is true- even reputable historians are proved wrong by new discoveries.

All it takes is Cunedda's wife(/lovers) to have been unfaithful and maybe none of his DNA got passed on even as far as his children.

Check your assumptions too, they can leave blind spots. Surnames didn't exist in Wales until the 1500's. So for example having Morgan as a surname means that your father's first name was Morcant when that family took on a surname. It's not like the clan system in Scotland is assumed to be where everyone is descended from a chief (and in actual fact it's not like that at all, most clan members are not descended from a chief but merely gave allegiance to one and took their chief's clan name as their surname, but that is the common assumption)

If you have Welsh ancestry then there's every chance you're descended from someone royal, it won't get you a throne but there's every reason to be proud of your heritage.

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[Ryan Davies]

Well, thanks anyway! Hope everyone stays Faithful!

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[Ryan Davies]

The House Of Aberffraw is the Royal Line down from Cunedda the High King of Britain isn't it? If there is a requirement for Salic Law, then there cannot be a break in the line of males. Why hasn't anyone pointed out that there were breaks in the concurrent lines of Anwyl and Owain Glendower? Ethyllt verch Cynan and Angharad ferch Maredudd, ancestresses respectively of the Anwyl and Glendower lines, were the heiresses of Wales. Ethyllt was married to Gwriad ap Elidur. Angharad was married to the interim King, Cynfyn ap Gwerstan. Whatever line might have been picked, a break in tradition arose when heiresses received the nod.

Owain Tudor was directly down from Cunedda and King Henry VIII felt very free to claim Wales based on this fact. When he left the succession requirements for his son to follow, Mary Tudor, Henry's sister, was the next line progenitress. To this day, the British succession is tied to being down from Mary Tudor. This is a break in Wales tradition.

I think that Wales Law requires the Right of Succession extend to another brother of Maredudd, Angharad's father, if he had a brother.

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[Ryan Davies]

I think Einion Yrth, the progenitor of these standups for the honours, was UTHR PENDRAKON. PENDRAKON is Hebrew for " lest by power." One of his sons was killed by his nephew for his Throne.

Henry VIII is an heir male to Cunedda. His Y DNA is with the British Museum. If someone is the High king, he will match that for Salic Law to be enforced. If Wales decides to have male or female lines eligible for a monarchy, then never mind!

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[Ryan Davies]

It turns out the Cymraeg for Prince is Twyswg. It is an Etruscan word originally literally translated: "you son." It is unfair to assume the Northern Morgans of Cateness are an entirely different clan than Cunedda's son, Dwegfyl, a direct heir line now. They use the same word for Prince only spelled "Toiseach."

The word clan is also Etruscan "kln." It was in use in Moray and Argyll, which was Wale's for centuries. My grandfather, David 1 of Scotland, took the Mormaers' territories of Moray and others to satisfy immigrant knights he brought from Flemish areas. They were tilting in Pembroke when he enlisted them. They defeated the Angus clan and David made Freskin of Moravia, earl of Moray. The Angus clan was descended from Berwyn, king of Britain through Morggan Mac Cathmael. Berwyn was a descendant of the Italic Morgan clan out of Italus, first king of Italy.

Earlier, Morggan Of Mar's son had married Llewelyn the Great's daughter. There is an old house near Aberffraw called Morggan's house from that era (around 1000 A. D. - the time of the meteor bombardment of Europe and the erosion of life in Scotland from the climate changes). Llyn Llywenan on Anglesey might be a rescue mission for Morggan's people brought down from Loch Llawers. Llywenan is Yew Tree Lake with yews planted by them. They were famous yew tree growers in Scotland. It is true that some lakes in the area were called loch instead of llyn.

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[Ryan Davies]

I have to make an adjustment about Owen Tudor's Line...he is down from Coel Hen with Y DNA The same as Cunedda's. They are all down from Beli Mawr. The sons of Coel Hen moved South and the sons of Cunedda moved back North to Glen Lyon. Same Y DNA.

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[Ryan Davies]

SeaBrightMorgan, maybe you should start your own thread about the Morgans, Y-DNA of Cunedda/Coel Hen & "High King of Wales"? It might be more appropriate than posting in this one which while it goes off on tangents is primarily about the House of Aberffraw.I've enjoyed reading most of this thread, but you're posts make it more confusing to follow as you are posting while you find new information.

Although Cunedda is often seen as the founder, strictly speaking most historians see the Kings coming from his male line as the House of Cunedda. The last of that male line in Gwynedd to reign was Hywel ap Rhodri Molwynog. His daughter, Esyllt, married Merfyn Frych who was the male line ancestor of the House of Aberffraw.

You've correctly- albeit after 10 posts- realised that he is not a male line descendant of Cunedda. Some good sources suggest he was the son of the King of the Isle of Man rather than a decendant of Coel Hen. The book you are reading at sounds like it suggests that Cunedda was the son of Coel Hen. More reliable sources suggest he was Coel's son-in-law, so no Y-DNA passed on there.

BTW what book are you reading?

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[Ryan Davies]

SeaBrightMorgan

I, like most people posting on this particular thread, would treat information from the early part of the House of Aberffraw and the entirety of the House of Cunedda, and certainly pre-Cunedda very lightly and assume that lots of it was mythological and certainly not a reputable source. I know you don't, and it can make it hard to talk about the later period which we know a lot about for certain and the earlier part on the same thread. That's why I'd love for you to start another thread so I can engage with both your information about the Morgans/Coel Hen/Cunedda and the House of Aberffraw which are, IMO, two separate topics.

I can just about buy the idea of someone claiming a Brythonic title based on male line decent from Cunedda or Coel. Maybe Wales, but not the House of Aberffraw which this particular thread is about. Especially not a male line descendant of Coel Hen – assuming that their ancestors aren't descended from Merfyn Frych – claiming to part of the house of Abberffraw.

Put simply, if a male line descendant of Coel Hen/Cunedda ever became King of Wales and none of his direct ancestors (apart maybe from Cunedda) had ever been King of Gwynedd, then he would title himself King of Wales, Prince of Wales, High King of Wales, maybe King of Brythoniaid and Head of the House of Coel (or if relevant perhaps the House of Cunedda- unlikely if you are relying on just Y-DNA and a surname being Morgan) or possibly Tudor* but not King of Gwynedd, Prince of Gwynedd, Prince of Aberffraw or head of the House of Aberffraw.

*Although I totally disagree that Henry VIII was a male line heir to Cunedda, you obviously think he was. Did he head up the House of Aberffraw or the House of Tudor? It's Tudor, so by your own logic a male line descendant of Coel, who never sat on the English throne, could be heir to the House of Tudor – I think even the most die-hard of us would admit that the House of Tudor is somewhat more well known and prestigious than that of Aberffraw.

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[Ryan Davies]

Ok, SeaBrightMorgan (and BallerinaTime333, feel free too because I added one of your posts). I created a Coel Hen/Morgan thread because I want to see where you go with this train of thought. I'm not sure if it's going to be or or

I'll try and respond on that thread as soon as I can, but I'd love it if you can post your info about Coel Hen, Cunedda, High Kings of Wales, YDNA of Henry VIII, how Abba Father preserved the male line from Noah to the kings of Troy to Britain to Wales and on to the good 'ol USA and everything in between over there rather than this thread.

And please, please - could you post on that thread what books you've been reading and how they think Morgan families in the US are the heirs to celtic thrones?

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f186/house-of-coel-hen-morgan-42023.html

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[Ryan Davies]

Owain Tudor was directly down from Cunedda and King Henry VIII felt very free to claim Wales based on this fact.

Nope, not true.

The most obvious, glaring error is King Henry VIII claimed England and Wales on the bases that his father was King Henry VII. That's a little unfair on my part and I assume you actually meant that King Henry VII claimed Wales based on male line decent from Cunedda?

Which is also untrue.

The mix up may be that he flew the Welsh dragon which was the symbol, not of Cunedda, but of Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon who Geoffrey of Monmouth in his stories (not "history" mind you, stories eg he mixes up things from Cadwaladr's life with that of Cædwalla of Wessex) as the last High King of the Britons.

If you remember the myth about King Arthur being asleep, until he is needed to rescue Britain, then the source is the Welsh belief that a fellow Celt would one day rid Britain of the Saxons, in the poetry it was Cadwaladr who was the emblematic figure who represented a rise of Welsh High Kings of the Britons again. Henry VII wasn't claiming decent from Cunedda, he was claiming to "be" the "Son of Prophecy", a Celt taking back England for the Celts against the Anglo-Saxons.

He, as did others claiming the throne of England (which included Wales) at the same time, claimed lineal decent from both Cadwaladr and King Arthur. Henry the VII was a descendant of Cadwaladr, just not through the male line.

Henry's (male line) ancestor Ednyfed Fychan ap Cynwrig was seneschal to Llewellyn the Great (of the House of Aberffraw) who was 9th in male line decent from Marchudd ap Cynan, Lord of Rhos & Lord Protector of Rhodri the Great (of the House of Aberffraw), who supposedly was the male line descendant of Cadrawd Calchfynydd who was the supposed High King of the Britons and King of Calchfynydd in the 6th century.

Had Henry VII's ancestors really been male line descendants of Cadwaladr (who was descended from Cunedda) then they would not have served as officers of the Rhodri the Great who was King of Gwynedd because his mother's father was King of Gwynedd and a male line descendant of Cunedda. Marchudd would have been a legitimate claimant to the throne of Gwynedd that early on after the death of his maternal grandfather.

 

[Ryan Davies]

Henry VIII is an heir male to Cunedda. His Y DNA is with the British Museum. If someone is the High king, he will match that for Salic Law to be enforced.

Apart from King Henry VIII not being a male line descendant from Cunedda (see above):
- "High King" of the Britons was, if it existed, not a hereditary position.
- There isn't necessarily a "high king" to be proved and discovered. Just as if a male line descendant of Alfred the Great couldn't take a DNA test and on the basis of that be declared King of England. Just as a male line heir of William the conqueror couldn't be declared rightful king of England. There is no sword to pull out of the stone!
- Could you explain how exactly the British Museum has Henry VIII DNA? I am willing to be proved wrong, but I don't think they do.
- Salic Law has never been the law in Wales. Especially not at the time of Cunedda and Bali, who if they existed at all, were alive before it was even written. I think you are mistaking it with the law of Hywel Dda sometimes called "Welsh Law". It is similar but worth pointing out that Hywel Dda isn't regarded as being of the House of Aberffraw (he was part of a cadet line known as the House of Dinefwr that usurped the throne of Gwynedd). From memory it explicitly allows kingship to pass down a female line in specific situations unlike Salic law
- Salic Law is not the current law of Wales. It can't be enforced.

 

[Ryan Davies]

I think Einion Yrth, the progenitor of these standups for the honours, was UTHR PENDRAKON. PENDRAKON is Hebrew for " lest by power." One of his sons was killed by his nephew for his Throne.

Einion Yrth is a son of Cunedda.

Gildas accuses Maelgwn Gwynedd, son of Einion Yrth's son Cadwallon Longhand of murdering his uncle to assume the throne. Nobody knows who this uncle is, but it's assumed by some that it must be Einion Yrth's other son Owain White Tooth.

It's speculation at best. And Gildas most certainly isn't an impartial observer given how the monk slammed 5 kings and started off his rant by calling one of their mothers an "unclean lioness"; basically a "dirty bitch"

BTW what's a "standups for the honours" mean?

 

[Ryan Davies]

It turns out the Cymraeg for Prince is Twyswg. It is an Etruscan word originally literally translated: "you son."

Close. The word is Tywysog. It actually means "one who leads" and is derived from the Welsh word "tywys" which means "to lead".