King Juan Carlos - Fiscal Investigations, Inheritance and Exile : 2018-2022

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels

There was never any question of Alfonso Borbon Dampierre being named heir. Franco had many bad qualities but nepotism wasn’t one of them. When Alfonso BD married Carmen Franco, that’s when his realistic chances went down the gurgler. Besides Alfonso BD had no credibility with the military and didn’t speak Spanish properly. It would have been more likely that Franco would have appointed his right hand man whose name escapes me at the moment as his successor and the “kingdom without a king” ruse would have continued.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about that period of Spanish history, but, from what I read, Alfonso was indeed a Plan B for Franco and was seriously considered as a candidate to the throne. And it had nothing to do with nepotism, but rather doubts about JC's genuine loyalty to Francoism, which, in the long run, proved to be true, as JC, upon becoming King, embarked on a path of regime change that would immediately lead to the redemocratization of Spain under the 1978 model of constitutional monarchy.

[WreathOfLaurels]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I am not particularly knowledgeable about that period of Spanish history, but, from what I read, Alfonso was indeed a Plan B for Franco and was seriously considered as a candidate to the throne. And it had nothing to do with nepotism, but rather doubts about JC's genuine loyalty to Francoism, which, in the long run, proved to be true, as JC, upon becoming King, embarked on a path of regime change that would immediately lead to the redemocratization of Spain under the 1978 model of constitutional monarchy.

I’m going from what i’ve Read in Paul Prestons bio of JC, who was also a major biographer of Franco. There was a faction called “the bunker” headed by Carmen Polo that lobbied for Alfonso BD as successor but the reformist faction surrounding JC got the upper hand.

[WreathOfLaurels]

Originally Posted by leidi

He had a much different role than any other monarch of his generation, because he succeeded a dictator and had to bring democracy to a country, we're greateful for the latter but that doesn't mean he won't go down in history as a cheating, lying con-man.
You can be a great monarch and still be those things, it's not mutually exclusive.

From what i’ve gathered, JC was more of a hinderance than a help in the transistion and frequently undermined and undercut Suarez to preserve his own position. He also interfered and intrigued to try and keep Felipe Gonzalez and PSOE out of office despite them having the most electoral support as he saw them as a threat to his own position, and only accepted them as a government with great reluctance. Not a very democratic thing to do. JC only reluctantly went along with the transistion because he wanted to remain king, he is an entitled narcissist and the only thing he cares about is himself and his own comfort. The real credit for Spain’s transistion to democracy belongs to the people who demanded better and by and large got it.

These two columns are from 4/5 years ago but sum up my line of thinking on the subject.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...iche-democracy

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...pain-fairytale

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels

There was never any question of Alfonso Borbon Dampierre being named heir. Franco had many bad qualities but nepotism wasn’t one of them. When Alfonso BD married Carmen Franco, that’s when his realistic chances went down the gurgler. Besides Alfonso BD had no credibility with the military and didn’t speak Spanish properly. It would have been more likely that Franco would have appointed his right hand man whose name escapes me at the moment as his successor and the “kingdom without a king” ruse would have continued.

The Generalissimo knew the Roman adagium: divide et empera.
He was the puppetmaster and used Don Juan Carlos de Borbón y Borbón, Don Alfonso de Borbón y Dampierre and Don Carlos Hugo de Borbón-Parma y Borbón as useful pawns. This means that Don Juan, the Conde de Barcelona, (very much disliked by Franco) could never be sure that his son Juan Carlos would become Heir, so the future of the Borbóns remained in limbo. It was important at least to secure the finances, regardless the outcome of Franco's succession.

[carlota]

Originally Posted by Somebody

Apparently Corinna also talks about some shady dealings regarding the AVE a la Meca (high speed train to Mecca). If I understand it correctly the king wanted to (and did) receive ten thousands of millions as an intermediate, claimimg he made the whole project possible, so for his role as the one connecting the real intermediate witn the Saudi king he expected to receive half of the commision (under the table). Corinna tried to convince the king not to do this as it would be illegal and he could end up in prison. His response: "You are so German."

how absolutely frustrating. i think if this was true, the SRF would not survive another scandal. i hope someone investigates this.

another part of me thinks this is revenge on corinna's part, but i still think this should be investigated. it is not too hard: check corinna's properties and ask her in court how she financed them. then move on to investigate JC and his accounts to spot potential illegal enrichment.

Originally Posted by Terri Terri

Doesn't King Juan Carlos have immunity from prosecution now? Wasn't that one of the conditions that was agreed on as part of his abdication? So even though these deals may now be spoken of openly, it isn't as though he will go to prison. However, I do see how it may cause difficulties for the SRF.

i would hope he does not hold immunity any longer. his son does, and my understanding is that it is the only one but this family is certainly anything from clean, from what we have seen, so it would not surprise me if JC made himself untouchable following his abdication.

[carlota]

the government has consulted the courts on whether JC has immunity. the answer seems quite unclear, honestly. officially, he does not have immunity since his abdication, but it would seem there is some immunity for him if he carries out certain activities in representation of the crown, and it would appear from the wording that he has immunity over what happened when he was king.

El Gobierno consulta sobre la inviolabilidad del Rey Juan Carlos | España

it is a rather unclear situation.

the government when asked why they posed the question to the courts said that they do not intend to pursue, they just wanted to understand whether he does or does not have immunity, making the situation even more confusing as why on earth would they ask otherwise...

to be continued, i guess.

[WreathOfLaurels]

He’s got a partial immunity from regular criminal charges and certain private suits (ie the paternity cases - what happened to those?). However, he’s not immune from the Supreme Court and unconstutional actions. If the Spanish government really wanted to get him than coming up with a creative legal fudge to do so based around unconstitutional actions as opposed to criminal activites would not be impossible. However, i don’t think anything will happen, it’s too embarrassing and messy for the Spanish government and will probably will all get swept under the carpet after he dies.

With this in mind I don’t think Corrina will be facing criminal action either - I don’t think you can be extradited from Monaco to Spain (the European arrest warrant notwithstanding) and the evidence against her would also Implicate a lot of others in spain not just JC - I could well be wrong (I hope I am) but .... yeah, nah.

It’s a shame Baltasar Garzon isn’t allowed to carry out investigations any more in Spain as this seems like a perfect fit for him. That and I’d like to see him get JC on the stand.

Originally Posted by carlota

Another part of me thinks this is revenge on corinna's part, but i still think this should be investigated. it is not too hard: check corinna's properties and ask her in court how she financed them. then move on to investigate JC and his accounts to spot potential illegal enrichment.

The recording was made back in 2015 to a senior Spanish policeman who is now under investigation for blackmail and illegal evidence hoarding. The recording was leaked to the media as an attempt by said cop to sabotage the court case and charges against him. It’s uncertain under what circumstances the recording was made, and more importantly whether it was part of an investigation by the police or if Corinna went to them. The fact the recording was made in London might possibly suggest the police went to her not the other way around.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by carlota

the government has consulted the courts on whether JC has immunity. the answer seems quite unclear, honestly. officially, he does not have immunity since his abdication, but it would seem there is some immunity for him if he carries out certain activities in representation of the crown, and it would appear from the wording that he has immunity over what happened when he was king.

El Gobierno consulta sobre la inviolabilidad del Rey Juan Carlos | España

it is a rather unclear situation.

the government when asked why they posed the question to the courts said that they do not intend to pursue, they just wanted to understand whether he does or does not have immunity, making the situation even more confusing as why on earth would they ask otherwise...

to be continued, i guess.

I am no expert, but the interpretation that Juan Carlos has immunity for acts practiced as king, but has lost that immunity following his abdication seems reasonable. The same principle applies in some other countries to a regent (i.e. someone who is exercising the royal prerogative on the king's behalf). But I will wait for the Spanish Constitutional Court to rule on the matter, if it comes to it. Personally, I am not sure it will because the tapes themselves and the reasons why they were leaked are under suspicion.


The only point that is clear is that Felipe VI himself and, actually, no other reigning king or queen in Europe can be prosecuted as they have sovereign immunity.

[Duke of Marmalade]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecilia.../#547d7871480a

secret audio recordings have come up - is this a new development? I've lost track.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecilia.../#547d7871480a

secret audio recordings have come up - is this a new development? I've lost track.

The moment Corinna said that JC repatriated part of his alleged dirty money because “ he wanted money to divorce Sofia and marry her “ , it became clear that her story has no credibility at all.

[Frozen Royalist]

Are the corruption allegations true? I mean I find it rather suspicious that so far only a few articles have appeared about the possible corruption allegations. Also how do we know that this German aristocrat isn't making this up? Still, do you think that the Spanish monarchy has much time left?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecilia.../#5ce7d7c1480a

-Frozen Royalist

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Are the corruption allegations true? I mean I find it rather suspicious that so far only a few articles have appeared about the possible corruption allegations. Also how do we know that this German aristocrat isn't making this up? Still, do you think that the Spanish monarchy has much time left?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecilia.../#5ce7d7c1480a

-Frozen Royalist

Fru Corinna Larsen, formerly Mrs Philip Adkins, formerly Frau Prinzessin zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Sayn, is not "a German aristocrat" but a Danish-born monegasque socialite. And the Spanish monarchy has plenty of time, why not?

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Frozen Royalist

Are the corruption allegations true? I mean I find it rather suspicious that so far only a few articles have appeared about the possible corruption allegations. Also how do we know that this German aristocrat isn't making this up? Still, do you think that the Spanish monarchy has much time left?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cecilia.../#5ce7d7c1480a

-Frozen Royalist

The probability of the Spanish monarchy being abolished in this generation is very low.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

The probability of the Spanish monarchy being abolished in this generation is very low.

I see the monarchy to be abolished in the Netherlands or Sweden, earlier than in Belgium or Spain.

Reason: the stable democracies and societies of the Netherlands and Sweden can easily "handle" a shift from a monarchy to a republic.

In Belgium and Spain however, the monarchy and the Constutution are very linked to the very core existence of the state. Any proposed change will open Pandora's Box, will open a can of worms and is likely to have a seismic effect on the state and in society.

So weirdly enough a calm, prosperous and stable society will easier swap, simply because liberal and progressive people will possibly have a majority and find a monarchy an anomaly in a 21st C state. In Spain and in Belgium this will not be different, but there other centrifugal powers play a role: the separatistic and secessionist movements.

Doña Leonor's future looks more safe than those of Princess Catharina-Amalia or Princess Estelle.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

I see the monarchy to be abolished in the Netherlands or Sweden, earlier than in Belgium or Spain.

Reason: the stable democracies and societies of the Netherlands and Sweden can easily "handle" a shift from a monarchy to a republic.

In Belgium and Spain however, the monarchy and the Constutution are very linked to the very core existence of the state. Any proposed change will open Pandora's Box, will open a can of worms and is likely to have a seismic effect on the state and in society.

So weirdly enough a calm, prosperous and stable society will easier swap, simply because liberal and progressive people will possibly have a majority and find a monarchy an anomaly in a 21st C state. In Spain and in Belgium this will not be different, but there other centrifugal powers play a role: the separatistic and secessionist movements.

Doña Leonor's future looks more safe than those of Princess Catharina-Amalia or Princess Estelle.

I agree about a possible abolishment being easy compared to Spain, but especially in the Netherlands the royals are extremely popular, partly thanks to megawatt-Maxima, from this perspective becoming the monarch might still be a burden for CA but nothing compared to what Leonor will be facing.

The Spanish monarchy might be more difficult to abolish but the hostile climate and constant harrassment and cross fire from different sides will make the life of a possible Queen Leonor of Spain very, very hard to bear.

As Prince Claus once said (not a quote but the meaning), at some point there won't be any people left who want to do the job, because of the circumstances and the way they are being treated.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

I agree about a possible abolishment being easy compared to Spain, but especially in the Netherlands the royals are extremely popular, partly thanks to megawatt-Maxima, from this perspective becoming the monarch might still be a burden for CA but nothing compared to what Leonor will be facing.

The Spanish monarchy might be more difficult to abolish but the hostile climate and constant harrassment and cross fire from different sides will make the life of a possible Queen Leonor of Spain very, very hard to bear.

As Prince Claus once said (not a quote but the meaning), at some point there won't be any people left who want to do the job, because of the circumstances and the way they are being treated.

As Duc often points out there is a difference in a royal being popular and people approving of the monarchy itself. It was often said about Spain before the abdication that many Spaniards was more Juan-Carloists than royalists. Now we know that the situation is more complicated than that but there's still a feeling, to me, of that Felipe is the monarchy's last chance.
In Sweden, while most people are still in favour of the monarchy, many of the younger generations feel that even if they like and respect Victoria the monarchy itself is outdated and not compatible with modern society.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Yes, Queen Máxima is extremely popular and even the King is surprisingly well-liked. But their personal scores are higher than the preference for a constitution in which the head of state is "delivered" by hereditary succession.

So in the Netherlands (and I think in Sweden) the support for a monarchy erodes despite the popularity of the royal family. We can see the same in Romania. The late King Michael was well-liked and held in high esteem. This did not translate in a desire for a restoration of the monarchy.

I can see a swap in the Netherlands or Sweden in which the monarchy is ended, all in a prudent manner, with an arrangement in which the former royal family will keep the Crown Domains and with a financial settlement, like has been done in many former German monarchies.

In Spain, any change of a Constitution will stir a debate about secessionist states like Catalonia or Pays Basque. The same in Belgium. So weird enough in these two "not so stable" constitutions the monarchy has more prospect than in the "stable" Netherlands or Sweden. Even despite the hiccups around Don Juan Carlos and Doña Cristina. But that is my personal assessment.

[Biri]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Yes, Queen Máxima is extremely popular and even the King is surprisingly well-liked.

Why "suprisingly"?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Biri

Why "suprisingly"?

For a long time, as Prince of Orange, he never scored that high in popularity polls (but neither did his mother Queen Beatrix anyway).

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

For a long time, as Prince of Orange, he never scored that high in popularity polls (but neither did his mother Queen Beatrix anyway).

People called him 'Prince Pils' in the earlier years, WA had the image of being lazy and not interested in duty.
He is a prime example of how the right choice of wife can make all the difference.