King Juan Carlos - Fiscal Investigations, Inheritance and Exile : 2018-2022

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by camelot23ca

I don’t think corruption was ever considered trivial but it was/is commonplace. Iñaki’s problem was not that what he did was unheard of but that he did it in a clumsy way that made it easy for anyone who wanted to go looking to take him down. In terms of the money he was moving around he was small potatoes. It’s still incomprehensible to me why Juan Carlos didn’t follow the time honoured tradition of powerful fathers in law making sure there’s a rock solid financial brain watching over his son in law’s business. IF what Corinna is saying is true then maybe he truly felt he and his family were untouchable.

That said, while I don’t doubt Juan Carlos and his family have benefitted from deals that wouldn’t hold up under legal scrutiny, I don’t know how much credibility I’d give these particular stories. Corinna seems to have been quite happy to at least look the other way and keep quiet about JC’s dealings before he left her.

Felipe hasn’t instituted any transparency regarding his private financial dealings and if he ever did I think it would be eye opening for those who think of him as pure as the driven snow. At the very least he’s benefitted financially from his father’s wheeling and dealing. And he’ll benefit even more when his father dies. I predict if this issue doesn’t go away he’ll be “noble” and announce he’s putting the inheritance into the existing foundation - but, of course, a significant part of the inheritance won’t be traceable or declared, at least not if Juan Carlos and his friends have done their jobs well.

Agree 100%

I do think that JC felt that he and his family was untouchable, therefore he got sloppy and it was bad luck that the financial crisis turned perception of wrongdoing regarding public money in Spain upside down.

I am very sure that if there had been no austeridad in Spain, nobody would have cared enough to put an end at Inaki's dealings or at least kept on going after him when he got shipped out to Washington with a golden handshake.

And yes, I believe that JC will have covered his tracks well enough to not bring Felipe and the monarchy into serious problems, money will go to foundations and there will be left enough to lead a very wealthy life behind closed doors, not only for Felipe but also for his two sisters.

[maria-olivia]

Why is it coming out only now and by a Mistress ? Did other people receive "siilence money"

[Somebody]

All of this is probably why Cristina and Iñaki must feel betrayed by some members of their own family who do or did exactly the same things (or knowingly profitted from them) but weren't caught (or at least not persecuted). While it is right that Iñaki has to serve his sentence it looks like there are many other including the emeritus king who should be serving far longer sentences for corruption charges but most likely never will.

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

The story is now making its way across the worldwide news media,it seems the Spanish RF only make worldwide headlines when its bad press!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...er-secure-low/

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/j...oney-b27765l6b

I wondr why it is only this story making headlines and not also his shady Saoudi dealings which is probably how he amassed most of his wealth.

[WreathOfLaurels]

Originally Posted by Somebody

I wondr why it is only this story making headlines and not also his shady Saoudi dealings which is probably how he amassed most of his wealth.

I guess it’s because its more clickbaity than “former king of Spain launders money from dodgy business deals in Saudi Arabia” - sex sells I guess. As for Corinna, I would not trust anything she is saying to the media or law enforcement, from what I’ve heard she has a long history of acting as a ‘fixer’ for activities like this, and she isn’t a princess either. Her second husband was from the SWB family and her real name is Corinna Larsen. She could have walked away any time and chose not to, she knew what she was doing.

In fairness Juan Carlos isn’t the only royal personage to have had dealing of dubious legality in the MIddle East - those two examples cited above are high end UK papers and the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall have had investmentes in the ME for some time. He’s just been arrogant and stupid enough to do so in his own name as opposed to through third party foundations and trusts.

JC needs to loose his immunity - this is bigger than being forgetful about filing taxes.

[An Ard Ri]

Corinna zu Sayn Wittgenstein is no German Princess why the media keep referring to her as one I do not know.

[Somebody]

To me the worst part is that Juan Carlos doesn't even seem to think his behavior is morally wrong or problematic but seemed to think he was entitled to lots of (illegal) money just because he is the king and therefore has connections in the Middle East...

I assume many people would use their influence to advance certain causes but hopefully not to the extend that they think they are above the law (which interestingly is what the Casa Real has been actively proclaiming for some years now: 'nobody is above the law' - but clearly there are exceptions, it's just those married into the royal family who aren't, only those born into it are).

[WreathOfLaurels]

What I want to know about all this is, where precisely are these leaks coming from? Unless spanish law enforcement have some serious security issues, than this recording, and similar information that’s been seeping out into the media over the past decade, is being released on purpose. Or has Corinna herself been the one feeding information to the media to pass the buck? I think there’s somthing bigger going on here...

Should this be in a separate thread as its not really about JC and the press?

[Al_bina]

One can wonder why media of perfidious Albion covers the story. It is disingenuous for supine British media to discuss levels of corruption in a foreign state.

It is amusing to see negative labels being attached to Saudi Arabia, UAE and Morocco. The enlightened European regimes do not mind taking investments from the above kingdoms. They do need to decide between morality and greed for comfortable living.

[WreathOfLaurels]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

I think from when JC steered Spain into democracy and started rebuilding the country economically, there were a lot of deals going on that included personal enrichment, something that is still common in authoritarian regimes or many democracies until today even though from a legal perspective it would be considered 'shady' or even criminal. Corruption has deep roots in Spain and has been a trivial offense for many years. It was normal procedure.

One of the major factors that lead to the collapse of the Spanish monarchy in the 1930s was the allegations of corruption surrounding Alfonso XIII and the bourbons more broadly. Unlike JC though, Alfonso was accused of taking money directly from the Spanish treasury. Franco and his wife carmen polo also embezzled a great deal during his time as caudillo, and the Franco years were very corrupt due to the nature of the regime. With i think the exception of Suarez, all post transition governments have collapsed due to corruption chargers and financial mismanagement. Similar charges also helped hasten the decline of the monarchy in Greece. Juan Carlos himself was the one who had the idea that the RF should pay income tax in the first place.

Juan Carlos should have known better than this.

[WreathOfLaurels]

Originally Posted by camelot23ca

Felipe hasn’t instituted any transparency regarding his private financial dealings and if he ever did I think it would be eye opening for those who think of him as pure as the driven snow. At the very least he’s benefitted financially from his father’s wheeling and dealing. And he’ll benefit even more when his father dies. I predict if this issue doesn’t go away he’ll be “noble” and announce he’s putting the inheritance into the existing foundation - but, of course, a significant part of the inheritance won’t be traceable or declared, at least not if Juan Carlos and his friends have done their jobs well.

It won’t go away, it will always come up whenever royal finances or government corruption becomes an issue. The best thing to do to fix the mess, would be to allow for a proper investigation into these claims what’s legit and what’s not, press charges if there has been anything illegal, pay any outstanding taxes and fines, and put the rest of the money into a charitable trust that’s NOT for the family’s use. But I somehow don’t think that’s going to happen.

This topic has been on the JC and the Press thread but I think it needs its own thread.

As has come up again in the media, JC’s buisness deals and alleged tax dodging are coming under fire (again) as recordings claiming embezzlement and tax evasion on a scale much larger than previously thought.

This isn’t new as accusations of graft and influence peddling have been attached to the former king since the late 1980s early 1990s.

What’s fact, what’s fiction and just how bad is this going to get?

Here’s El Pais’s take:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/16...76862.amp.html

[Marengo]

Thank you for starting this new thread, WreathofLaurels. To keep the discussion together on one spot I have moved all posts about these new allegations to this thread.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by Mbruno

I am not sure about his legal status now. When he was the reigning king, he had immunity from prosecution under the Spanish constitution. That BTW is also the case for all other reigning European monarchs as far as I understand.

Status of JC's immunity (source: El Pais)
Legal status had already been confirmed when confronted with possible paternity law suits, there was a man claiming that JC was his father, the case was thrown out.

Juan Carlos can only be tried by the Supreme Court, given that he enjoys partial immunity thanks to his status as an aforado – a legal term in Spanish referring to those, such as high-ranking politicians, who are protected from prosecution in the lower courts.

I don't think there will ever be an investigation, JC is 80, many of his business buddys are dead or still have enough influence. This would touch the highest of levels in Spain, is there anyone far enough from corruption to cast the first stone?

[WreathOfLaurels]

Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade

Juan Carlos can only be tried by the Supreme Court, given that he enjoys partial immunity thanks to his status as an aforado – a legal term in Spanish referring to those, such as high-ranking politicians, who are protected from prosecution in the lower courts.

I don't think there will ever be an investigation, JC is 80, many of his business buddys are dead or still have enough influence. This would touch the highest of levels in Spain, is there anyone far enough from corruption to cast the first stone?

The only case he would be tried by the Supreme Court would be if his actions could be seen as constituting treason, something seriously unconstitutional, or something along those lines.

On a personal note, I’ve never liked JC. There has always been something fraudulent about him that’s always made me put my back up. Initially it was my distaste for the way he’s treated Sofia and his bad attitude to women in general, but this confirms what I’ve always thought - that’s he’s overrated and we’ve all been had. In other words he’s a royal Berlusconi, a crowned Trump, Putin with a title; and the sooner the sentimental mythos surrounding him is junked, the better.

[Winnie]

Originally Posted by Al_bina

One can wonder why media of perfidious Albion covers the story. It is disingenuous for supine British media to discuss levels of corruption in a foreign state.

It is amusing to see negative labels being attached to Saudi Arabia, UAE and Morocco. The enlightened European regimes do not mind taking investments from the above kingdoms. They do need to decide between morality and greed for comfortable living.

Brilliant. You are absolutely correct. It seems that every country in the world needs to clean their swamps of immoral practices. Heavens what an awful mess our world seem to have gotten themselves in over the last many decades.

[An Ard Ri]

Maybe some of the Spanish posters can advise us if there's much on this story in Spain at the moment?

[camelot23ca]

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels

This topic has been on the JC and the Press thread but I think it needs its own thread.

As has come up again in the media, JC’s buisness deals and alleged tax dodging are coming under fire (again) as recordings claiming embezzlement and tax evasion on a scale much larger than previously thought.

This isn’t new as accusations of graft and influence peddling have been attached to the former king since the late 1980s early 1990s.

What’s fact, what’s fiction and just how bad is this going to get?

Here’s El Pais’s take:

https://elpais.com/elpais/2018/07/16...76862.amp.html

I think teasing out fact from fiction would be impossible. Juan carlos likely has acted inappropriately in the past but I don’t think this particular set of allegations would amount to much of anything. We’ve got the word of a scorned mistress and the recordings of a crooked cop soon going to jail himself. Not the best starting point. Unless Corinna can produce a very strong paper trail then I see no reason to take her at her word.

IMO Juan Carlos likely amassed the bulk of his wealth a long time ago and he and the family’s friends and advisors have been smart enough to essentially make the money disappear. I don’t think he’s as wealthy as people think - he probably doesn’t have anywhere close to one billion dollars, let alone the two billion figure that floats around - but I do think there are many millions of dollars the family can access, that all of it is sitting outside of Spain and the authorities could investigate for a decade and still never find out the truth.

Given that, I actually don’t see how an investigation benefits the average Spanish citizen or Spanish society in general. It would be time consuming, expensive, Juan Carlos would likely be dead before any conclusions could be drawn, and in the end it would come to nothing. It would also do nothing to decrease corruption in general.

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Maybe some of the Spanish posters can advise us if there's much on this story in Spain at the moment?

An interesting piece of information in the El País article is that D. Juan Carlos, unlike King Felipe VI, is no longer immune from criminal persecution. He can only be tried though by the Supreme Court, which is also the case BTW for some high-ranking members of the government.

[WreathOfLaurels]

Leaving aside the fact that in popular culture sex-greed and money-greed often go hand-in-hand, What’s interesting about all these allegations about graft and influence peddling is just how much it dovetails with his extra marital affairs and the feeble effort at keeping it out of the press by paying out hush money or other (pointless) efforts at subterfuge.

Even if any of this isn’t technically illegal (and that’s a pretty big if) i don’t think his reputation is ever going to recover from taint of all this. That’s ok as a reappraisal of his (overrated IMO) role in the transition and his reputation is long overdue anyway.

[Duke of Marmalade]

Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels

Leaving aside the fact that in popular culture sex-greed and money-greed often go hand-in-hand, What’s interesting about all these allegations about graft and influence peddling is just how much it dovetails with his extra marital affairs and the feeble effort at keeping it out of the press by paying out hush money or other (pointless) efforts at subterfuge.

Even if any of this isn’t technically illegal (and that’s a pretty big if) i don’t think his reputation is ever going to recover from taint of all this. That’s ok as a reappraisal of his (overrated IMO) role in the transition and his reputation is long overdue anyway.

Once your reputation's gone, you can boldly carry on!