King Juan Carlos - Fiscal Investigations, Inheritance and Exile : 2018-2022

[WreathOfLaurels]

It won’t go away, it will always come up whenever royal finances or government corruption becomes an issue. The best thing to do to fix the mess, would be to allow for a proper investigation into these claims what’s legit and what’s not, press charges if there has been anything illegal, pay any outstanding taxes and fines, and put the rest of the money into a charitable trust that’s NOT for the family’s use. But I somehow don’t think that’s going to happen.

I posted this when the allegations began to really surface in 2018. Still the case today.

 

[Mbruno]

I am just wondering, I mean, this is still only about the 100 million Dollar or something, Juan Carlos got as a kick-back for the railway in Saudi Arabia?

Where is here the damage for the spanish state coffers?

Or are they already talking about the 2 billion Dollars, Juan Carlos is alledgedly worth? There are some interesing contributions and links here at the beginning of the thread...

So, if there is any truth to the 2 billion Dollars, Felipe has an interesting choice at least, if he has one...

Juan Carlos could put the money into a foundation, not a trust fund , as I wrote falsly earlier: The Revolution Foundation - If the family gets dethroned and only then, they get the money; if not, the money stays in the foundation and piles up...

And Felipe can say: It is all not my fault! It is daddy's fault! And he has the choice: Poor King of a close to bankrupt country OR shining billionaire... choices, choices...

I think Spaniards would take offense at your characterization of their country as "close to bankrupt". Now that the UK is out, Spain is actually the fourth largest economy in the EU after Germany, France and Italy.

 

[Blog Real]

Pablo Casado, President of the PP: "The debate on the Monarchy is suicidal for national harmony"
He defends the "magnificent legacy" of King Juan Carlos I: "Without it this social, democratic and right-law state could not have been consolidated". And he asks for respect for his presumption of innocence.

"Felipe VI is the best head of state that Spain can have and we will defend it".

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-pabl...-concordia-nacional-202008090146_noticia.html

Podemos and the separatists pressured the Government, the Government pressured the King, the King moved the pressures to his father and King Juan Carlos made his own decision: he would not leave the Palace of Zarzuela, as Pedro Sánchez asked, but would leave Spain for a time without defining. This is the summary of the events that triggered the forced departure of King Juan Carlos last Sunday and which have unleashed a storm of unpredictable consequences.

https://www.abc.es/espana/casa-real...partida-juan-carlos-202008090147_noticia.html

 

[Muhler]

Would it be an option for King Felipe to publicly announce that all the inheritance from his father will donated to the Spanish state?

Or for ex-king Juan Carlos to do the same?

 

[Blog Real]

Would it be an option for King Felipe to publicly announce that all the inheritance from his father will donated to the Spanish state?

Or for ex-king Juan Carlos to do the same?

No, I don't think that's the King's choice. Much of Juan Carlos' heritage is legal. In doing so King Felipe VI would be putting the sisters and Juan Carlos himself in a complicated situation.

 

[altagrace]

It won’t go away, it will always come up whenever royal finances or government corruption becomes an issue. The best thing to do to fix the mess, would be to allow for a proper investigation into these claims what’s legit and what’s not, press charges if there has been anything illegal, pay any outstanding taxes and fines, and put the rest of the money into a charitable trust that’s NOT for the family’s use. But I somehow don’t think that’s going to happen.

I agree with much of that: KJC needs to come clean about that money, acknowledge any mistakes and pay the "price". Tax services are usually more lenient on people who self report rather than get caught. Unfortunately it may be too late for that: the royal family has said nothing hoping the mater will go away. They let the rumours and speculations grow. Now no matter what they say no one will believe them...

Also I believe for KJC there is an issue of shame or embarrassment: by all accounts he doesn't even have the money in question anymore. Much of it was "transferred" to la Corinna and she isn't giving it back. Based on a lot of articles I read he likely transferred her the funds for her to invest on his behalf (proxy). But she says it was a gift from him. Personally I think he's been had/she swindled him. So he would pay the "price" in both tax and getting flack on funds he doesn't even own anymore. What a mess. My 2 cents worth.

 

[Stefan]

No, I don't think that's the King's choice. Much of Juan Carlos' heritage is legal. In doing so King Felipe VI would be putting the sisters and Juan Carlos himself in a complicated situation.

And King Felipe can also not decide about the share of the inheritance of King JC his sisters will get.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

And King Felipe can also not decide about the share of the inheritance of King JC his sisters will get.

If Felipe renounces his inheritance because parts of it may have been obtained illegally by today's standards and his sisters do not, there will be damage to the royal family and the monarchy. Felipe has to come 100% transparent about his financial status in the future.

 

[Blog Real]

The Spaniards praise the reign of Juan Carlos I but ask that he be brought to justice.
Respondents ask that the Emeritus King continue to reside in Spain because the march abroad detracts from trust in the monarchy.

https://www.elmundo.es/espana/2020/08/08/5f2e97b121efa052438b45ea.html

'Operation Cascais': a mansion for Juan Carlos.
The Portuguese plans of King Emeritus and the three key people who prepare him for his final landing after the summer: an old friend, a woman and the president of the Republic.

https://www.elmundo.es/cronica/2020/08/08/5f2dbd7e21efa0cb2a8b45e3.html

 

[Eskimo]

If it had not been for the fact that he is facing criminal investigation in Switzerland , that’s the place I would have picked him ending up. However, I suspect New Zealand was thrown up as it’s one of the furthest places away from Spain, and indeed anywhere (I live in Nz, I’m allowed to say that).

It’s probable he’ll either stay in the Middle East with one of the local princes, or he will go somewhere in Latin America or the Caribbean, maybe one of the more developed African countries - somewhere Sunny, hot - and private. Preferably with no extradition treaty, invasive press, or accountable government.

I don't think so. That would basically be an admission of guilt. If he is bought to trail in Spain he will return- because not returning would endanger the Monarchy.

Under what immigration status would he stay in NZ? I cannot see him asking for (or being granted) asylum. As stupid as I think it was of the Al-Nahyan family to take him in, they can grant him a legal right to stay in the UAE.

If Felipe renounces his inheritance because parts of it may have been obtained illegally by today's standards and his sisters do not, there will be damage to the royal family and the monarchy. Felipe has to come 100% transparent about his financial status in the future.

Ha! Good Luck with that. He will have to pry every last penny out Christina's cold, dead hands.

 

[Alison H]

"Historian" Amadeo Martinez Ingles has claimed that Juan Carlos has had 5,000 lovers. I'd love to know where he got that from. Has someone been keeping a list ?!


This is awful. It's like "Where's Juan Carlos?" rather than "Where's Wally?". So embarrassing. I do feel so sorry for Queen Sofia.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

I don't think so. That would basically be an admission of guilt. If he is bought to trail in Spain he will return- because not returning would endanger the Monarchy.

Under what immigration status would he stay in NZ? I cannot see him asking for (or being granted) asylum. As stupid as I think it was of the Al-Nahyan family to take him in, they can grant him a legal right to stay in the UAE.

Tourist most likely IF the NZ story was correct - at moment the borders are closed for all practical purposes so he would probably not be allowed in the first place. Spain is also a high Covid country so that also counts against him too.

 

[Blog Real]

"Historian" Amadeo Martinez Ingles has claimed that Juan Carlos has had 5,000 lovers. I'd love to know where he got that from. Has someone been keeping a list ?!


This is awful. It's like "Where's Juan Carlos?" rather than "Where's Wally?". So embarrassing. I do feel so sorry for Queen Sofia.

This story of the 5000 lovers doesn't make sense. The man didn't have time to have so many lovers.
Yes, what's happening is very sad, I'm sorry for Queen Sofia, too.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

"Historian" Amadeo Martinez Ingles has claimed that Juan Carlos has had 5,000 lovers. I'd love to know where he got that from. Has someone been keeping a list ?!


This is awful. It's like "Where's Juan Carlos?" rather than "Where's Wally?". So embarrassing. I do feel so sorry for Queen Sofia.

Amedeo Martinez ingles is an ex army officer with a grudge against JC dating back to the 1970s. Ingles’ real beef with jc is the decision to withdraw from Spanish Sahara in 1976. He’s been harassing jc and the SRF ever since.

 

[HrH christopher c]

Now you"ve not mentioned the latest amendment to all that,"SOVEREIGN IMMUNITY"Sovereign immunity, or crown immunity, is a legal doctrine whereby a sovereign or state cannot commit a legal wrong and is immune to civil suit or criminal prosecution, strictly speaking in modern texts in its own courts. A similar, stronger rule as regards foreign courts is named state immunity.

In its older sense, sovereign immunity is the original forebear of state immunity based on the classical concept of sovereignty in the sense that a sovereign could not be subjected without his or her approval to the jurisdiction of another.

There are two forms of sovereign immunity:

immunity from suit (also known as immunity from jurisdiction or adjudication)
immunity from enforcement.
Immunity from suit means that neither a sovereign/head of state in person nor any in absentia or representative form (nor to a lesser extent the state) can be a defendant or subject of court proceedings, nor in most equivalent forums such as under arbitration awards and tribunal awards/damages. Immunity from enforcement means that even if a person succeeds in any way against their sovereign or state, they and the judgment may find itself without means of enforcement. Separation of powers or natural justice coupled with a political status other than a totalitarian state dictates there be broad exceptions to immunity such as statutes which expressly bind the state (a prime example being constitutional laws) and judicial review.

Furthermore, sovereign immunity of a state entity may be waived. A state entity may waive its immunity by:

prior written agreement
instituting proceedings without claiming immunity
submitting to jurisdiction as a defendant in a suit
intervening in or taking any steps in any suit (other than for the purpose of claiming immunity).
In constitutional monarchies the sovereign is the historical origin of the authority which creates the courts. Thus the courts had no power to compel the sovereign to be bound by them as they were created by the sovereign for the protection of his or her subjects.[citation needed] This rule was commonly expressed by the popular legal maxim rex non potest peccare, meaning "the king can do no wrong".[1]

 

[Eskimo]

This story of the 5000 lovers doesn't make sense. The man didn't have time to have so many lovers.
Yes, what's happening is very sad, I'm sorry for Queen Sofia, too.

I have no sympathy for Sofia. She could have left him any time she wanted but it was more important for her to be a Queen. So, she made her own bed

 

[HrH christopher c]

I am King That I am and i find no submission in a subject for the state is me or a foreign invader apart from he whom i have formed an alliance with out of Knowledge and for the benefits of my Kingdom and it"s citizens and my roots expands to my alliance as i also hold Title of lord and earl of Earl of Northumbria following my family title and sovereign over igboland,And this is the life of it"s people and it"s Crown and bottom line a state or kingdom cannot rise against itself or it is bound to fall as to say A prince is Immune from all iniquities for the kingdom or state is Iniquity itself and was found on battles and bloodshed.

 

[Prinsara]

I have no sympathy for Sofia. She could have left him any time she wanted but it was more important for her to be a Queen. So, she made her own bed

Can't you have a little? She was a reigning Catholic consort. How many divorces of those have there been lately?

As was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, she's the daughter, sister, wife and mother of kings, more royal than JC. It's a very small, very entrenched position. Perhaps she proudly preferred it to anywhere else or perhaps it was all she had to cling to.

If that weren't enough, she's also the generation where you do not get divorced and you do not run to the media about it; you put up with it and carry on as best you can. Sofia certainly could have left him (she basically has, in all but name), but how realistic was it?

 

[Blog Real]

Queen Sofia is the daughter, granddaughter, sister, wife, mother and even cousin of kings.
Besides, she belongs to a generation where divorce is not an option.
Of all the options that Queen Sofia had, she chose to remain married to King Juan Carlos on paper, because in reality they are separated for many years, live even in separate wings of the palace and only appear together in oificial acts. The whole of Spain knows they're separated.
If Queen Sofia had divorced, she would probably have lost her title and privileges and would have been in a difficult situation. She always did everything not to harm the family and the monarchy.

 

[Eskimo]

Can't you have a little? She was a reigning Catholic consort. How many divorces of those have there been lately?

As was pointed out elsewhere in the thread, she's the daughter, sister, wife and mother of kings, more royal than JC. It's a very small, very entrenched position. Perhaps she proudly preferred it to anywhere else or perhaps it was all she had to cling to.

If that weren't enough, she's also the generation where you do not get divorced and you do not run to the media about it; you put up with it and carry on as best you can. Sofia certainly could have left him (she basically has, in all but name), but how realistic was it?

I get your point. My point was that she accepted his infidelities and carried on the best she could. That was a choice she made.

 

[Prinsara]

I get your point. My point was that she accepted his infidelities and carried on the best she could. That was a choice she made.

Given her background and position, she didn't have too many other options for dealing with pain and humiliation. Of course you can choose not to have sympathy for her but she realistically did the one thing she could do (and she has Felipe on her side from it, for better or for worse).

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I get your point. My point was that she accepted his infidelities and carried on the best she could. That was a choice she made.

Yikes. What about the numerous affairs Juan Carlos has had? Juan Carlos and Sofia have been living separately for quite some time and their marriage has been described as "only existing on paper" and they only gather together for formal occasions. Let's not forget that divorce is still a taboo subject in Catholic churches, the religion the SRF are required to follow as official representatives of Spain.

 

[Somebody]

I agree that for Sofía (in her mind) the honorable thing to do was to remain married to Juan Carlos as that was what her position required of her (as in, that was her responsibility - I am sure she would have been taken care of fine if she had not). Many royals in previous generations had the same kind of marriage and it's her generation in which the shift seems to have started. Some of her contemporaries had mostly happy and faithful marriages (Beatrix & Claus and Harald & Sonja come to mind); others also had at least times of infidelity or marriage crisis (Albert & Paola -including an out-of-wedlock child-, Margrethe & Henrik, Carl Gustaf & Silvia (at least that is rumored)). Neither one of these couples separated.

 

[Lipe]

Queen Sophia is a woman very appreciated and loved by the Spanish, and frankly she deserves that appreciation. I am Spanish, and I admire her a lot, she has created an impressive solidarity work. In polls, today she is still the highest valued member by the people.
Queen Sofia has something that even makes me admire her more, and that is the respect of the entire politician parties, including Republicans. This is due to the social work that she has led.
On a personal level, Queen Sofia has always been at the service of the duty of a state, with an agenda full of events, which has marked her life. Since her childhood she is the only thing she has known how to do. She has highly valued her position as Queen, and she feels very useful helping the most disadvantaged social groups or those who need support from society. For Sofia, what she does is very gratifying, and she is aware of the importance that has in it, her status as Queen.
For Sofia serving the Spanish people and representing us as Queen has been very gratifying. And we, the Spaniards, are very proud of her.

After leaving the throne King Juan carlos , she has ceded her position as Queen to the new Queen , Queen Letizia. I appreciate Queen Letizia, I even admire her more every day.
However, I don't want Queen Sofia to disappear from public life, I like to continue seeing her, and I want her to be here for a long time. And I think this is that we want many Spaniards, that she continues to be here, we do not want her to disappear from our lives.

In 2008, Queen Sofia, in an interview, indirectly acknowledged that her marriage was a failure, her marriage was not what she expected, but she and Juan Carlos are "travel companions"

They have maintained a mutual agreement,
We Spaniards have been very aware that the marriage of King Juan and Queen Sofia is a "state marriage", for us it has not been scandalous, on the contrary, we have seen it well.
A divorce would have been profitable for Queen Sofia, because King Juan Carlos would have had to pay her a pension, which is possible that this was even higher than what she receives as Queen, she would earn more with less effort.

However, for the Spanish monarchy, this divorce would have been more dangerous and much more damaging than the scandal of King Juan Carlos, it would have been in my opinion, worse for the monarchy

 

[Countessmeout]

Sofia had so many factors against her:

Being a Catholic queen. The whole idea that divorce is a sin as marriage is a holy sacrament.

Being a royal of a certain generation. It was expected until recently that royal men would have mistresses. And women would simply turn a blind eye to it. Its recent generations that this is no longer acceptable (and people like Harald and Sonja who married for love). The idea of divorcing her husband because he was unfaithful would not have been a concept she grew up in.

Her position. She has been dedicated to her role as queen for decades.


To leave JC for good would mean giving up her place as queen consort. And all of her work she has done in the position. While Sofia would have been financially well taken care of, she would have been expected to fade off into the background all together. She would not have been like Diana, continuing her work and her spotlight after she divorced.

Instead they are married in all but name. She continues the royal tradition, keeps to the sacrament of marriage, and is able to continue her role she has had since marriage. And the good work she has been able to do. While also maintaining a bond with her children and grandchildren.


Hopefully she is able to continue in the role she has had even through this. She has sacrificed a lot personally to stay with JC. She shouldn't be forced to disappear into the shadows with him due to his bad decisions.

 

[Prinsara]

Can a spouse be forced to testify against their marital partner in Spain?

 

[tommy100]

I do admire Sofia, its easily to say she should have left but this is not just a "personal" marriage but as Lipe says it is also a "state marriage". Sofia has stayed married to JC not to stay with him as a person IMO but to stay married to Spain and its people. Apart from in very recent times, pretty much since Felipe took over IMO, it would have caused scandal as JC's error of ways weren't widely known.

Given how apart they have been as a couple I highly doubt Sofia was privy to any details of the Saudi deal. Felipe seems very loyal to Sofia which suggests he knows she has been hard done to.

 

[Darius1]

With JC's amorous past I wonder when we will have a situation similar to that of King Albert of the Belgians and his love child. Any such candidates coming forward to claim a part of his inheritance would certainly add more spice to the mix.

Queen Sofia has been exemplary in her conduct. Having delivered an heir and spares she put duty above the personal in the knowledge that to do otherwise would create further instability to the transition.

She truly is one of the last examples of the great royal tradition of service and sacrifice and putting the nation first.

 

[maria-olivia]

The very last Queen of blue Blood after the late Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte and Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands.

 

[Darius1]

The very last Queen of blue Blood after the late Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte and Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands.

And Margarethe of Denmark and Anne-Marie of Greece!