King Juan Carlos - Fiscal Investigations, Inheritance and Exile : 2018-2022

[Mbruno]

I'm also concerned about the royal family's jewels. Hopefully they are protected. I was wondering who is covering Queen Sophia's expenses, I suppose the government?

If you take the tiaras as a reference (never mind the various earrings, brooches, necklaces and other smaller pieces), the big Fleur de Lys, the Cartier Pearl and Diamond, and the Cartier Loop tiaras were all assumed to be privately owned by King Juan Carlos prior to the abdication; the Floral, the Mellerio Shell, the Prussian , and the Ruby necklace tiaras are supposed to be owned by Queen Sofia. The only tiara that was probably owned directly by Felipe and/or Letizia was the Ansorena Asturias tiara, which Letizia wore only once at Queen Margrethe II's 75th birthday gala dinner and was apparently a wedding gift. There are rumors that Letizia also owns a second, unseen wedding gift tiara, but that has never been confirmed.

Since Letizia has worn the Fleur de Lys, the Cartier Pearl and Diamond, the Cartier Loop, and the Floral tiaras since she became Queen, it is possible that ownership of the latter has been already transferred to Felipe, but we cannot say that for sure.

 

[Prinsara]

At least some of the jewels are the "joyas de pasar" and have been in a kind of family foundation since Queen Ena, if I'm not mistaken. They'd probably all be cultural/heritage property at this point.

 

[Stefan]

If you take the tiaras as a reference (never mind the earrings, brooches, necklaces and other pieces), the big Fleur de Lys, the Cartier Pearl and Diamond, the Cartier Loop, and the Floral tiaras were all assumed to be privately owned by King Juan Carlos prior to the abdication; the Mellerio Shell tiara, the Prussian tiara and the Ruby necklace tiara are supposed to be owned by Queen Sofia. The only tiara that was probably owned directly by Felipe and/or Letizia was the Ansorena Asturias tiara, which Letizia wore only once at Queen Margrethe II's 75th birthday gala dinner and was apparently a wedding gift. There are rumors that Letizia also owns a second, unseen wedding gift tiara, but that has never been confirmed.



Since Letizia has worn the Fleur de Lys, the Cartier Pearl and Diamond, the Cartier Loop, and the Floral tiaras since she became Queen, it is possible that ownership of the latter has been already transferred to Felipe, but we cannot say that for sure.

Asde from the tiaras there are a lots of necklaces and Demi parures worn by Queen Sofia and Infanta's Elena and Cristina during the 1980's and 90'Äs from which it is assumed that they are party gift from foreings rulers like the Saudi's and other gulf state rulers. Queen Letizia has worn the earrings of one of the Sets at the State Visit to Japan.

The question is who owns them. Diod they they became personal property or State property.

 

[Blog Real]

In Spain there are the so-called "Jewels of Passing" that pass from queen to queen.
All jewels belong to the Spanish Royal Family, even the crown and scepter that sometimes appear in some ceremonies as in the proclamation of the king.
The Tiara fleuer de Lis, the Tiara Cartier, the Tiara de la Chata and the Tiara of Queen Maria Cristina and other jewels now belong to Queen Letizia, as they belong to the so-called "Jewels of Passing".
Mellerio's Floral Tiara and Prussian Tiara are owned by Queen Sofia.

 

[Mbruno]

Asde from the tiaras there are a lots of necklaces and Demi parures worn by Queen Sofia and Infanta's Elena and Cristina during the 1980's and 90'Äs from which it is assumed that they are party gift from foreings rulers like the Saudi's and other gulf state rulers. Queen Letizia has worn the earrings of one of the Sets at the State Visit to Japan.

The question is who owns them. Diod they they became personal property or State property.

The State owns all the royal palaces the art collections and the regalia, but I don't think it owns any of the family's jewels, even if they were gifts from foreign rulers.

Whatever the legal situation is, however, to go back to the main topic of the thread, my concern is that the bulk of the family's collection, apart from whatever Sofia may want to leave to her daughters, should go to Felipe/Letizia and, then, Leonor and be protected from any settlement of JC's tax debt or from Felipe's renunciation to his father's inheritance. The Spanish RF still undertakes quite a lot of representation events and it would be sad to see a Belgian-like situation of a jewelless Queen or jewelless princesses also repeating itself in Spain. The family already lost too many pieces during their first exile in the 1930s.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Where is Corinna Sayn-Wittgenstein residing at the moment?

 

[Blog Real]

The State owns all the royal palaces the art collections and the regalia, but I don't think it owns any of the family's jewels, even if they were gifts from foreign rulers.

Whatever the legal situation is, however, to go back to the main topic of the thread, my concern is that the bulk of the family's collection, apart from whatever Sofia may want to leave to her daughters, should go to Felipe/Letizia and, then, Leonor and be protected from any settlement of JC's tax debt or from Felipe's renunciation to his father's inheritance. The Spanish RF still undertakes quite a lot of representation events and it would be sad to see a Belgian-like situation of a jewelless Queen or jewelless princesses also repeating itself in Spain. The family already lost too many pieces during their first exile in the 1930s.

As I said in my post above, the jewels belong to the Spanish Royal Family.
The palaces and other properties belong to the Spanish state.
King Felipe VI can inherit from his mother and other family members, such as Princess Irene, the question of taxes is another conversation.
The Royal Family from now on has to do everything in a more transparent way.

 

[Darius1]

Where is Corinna Sayn-Wittgenstein residing at the moment?

I think she is between Monaco and London. I fear she may have further revelations about JC as this progresses

As I said in my post above, the jewels belong to the Spanish Royal Family.
The palaces and other properties belong to the Spanish state.
King Felipe VI can inherit from his mother and other family members, such as Princess Irene, the question of taxes is another conversation.
The Royal Family from now on has to do everything in a more transparent way.

The fiscal status of the Joyas de Pasar is interesting. They were named as "relics of the Crown" in Victoria Eugenie's will and have passed from her to the Countess of Barcelona, Queen Sofia and then to Letizia. I haven't seen anything regarding any taxes as in the case of the inheritance by Sofia and Letizia this was done whilst the original "owner" was still alive. I can't imagine them becoming state property.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I think she is between Monaco and London. I fear she may have further revelations about JC as this progresses

And goodness knows who or what else she may reveal.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I'm really not surprised the corruption case ended up with Juan Carlos's exile - it was expected.

 

[Mbruno]

I suppose he abdicated back in 2014 because he anticipated the corruption allegations would surface sooner or later and, even though abdication would leave him personally more vulnerable to possible prosecution, it was the right thing to do to save the monarchy.

 

[Denville]

I suppose he abdicated back in 2014 because he anticipated the corruption allegations would surface sooner or later and, even though abdication would leave him personally more vulnerable to possible prosecution, it was the right thing to do to save the monarchy.

Probably partly true, but possibly he also was getting older, was in bad health and wanted out of the job..

 

[Lipe]

Here you are mixing topics, but I am going to focus on the topic of inheritances. King Felipe in his declaration said that he renounces his father's inheritance. This is really a declaration of future intentions, because the reality, in Spanish law is that to be heir to King Juan Carlos, only one thing is needed, and that thing is, that King Juan Carlos would passed away. Only then would one speak of inheritance, and the possibility of accepting the inheritance or renouncing the inheritance.
King Felipe has made a declaration of intentions, but in the eyes of the law, the relevant thing would be that after the death of his father, and his inheritance opened, King Felipe will renounce to it. the law doesn´t obligate to Felipe to renounce the inheritance by this declarations.
I understand that King Felipe made this statement, he had to stop the speculations, I understand it. But his father also has a fortune, assets, legal investments, not all his activity is under suspicion, however in Spain it is not allowed to renounce only a part of the inheritance, you have to renounce the entire inheritance. Example, Felipe would can not renounce to the illegal or suspicion part of inheritance of his father and to accept of legal part.
If we think a bit, currently, that hypothetical future inheritance, which does not yet exist, would not include the amounts of the Swiss account, because King Juan Carlos emptied the account with transfers in favor of him and Corinna.

 

[Eskimo]

The fiscal status of the Joyas de Pasar is interesting. They were named as "relics of the Crown" in Victoria Eugenie's will and have passed from her to the Countess of Barcelona, Queen Sofia and then to Letizia. I haven't seen anything regarding any taxes as in the case of the inheritance by Sofia and Letizia this was done whilst the original "owner" was still alive. I can't imagine them becoming state property.

I seriously doubt that this property is privately owned by members of the SRF. The taxes would be astronomical. They are like you said “relics of the Crown” and the current Queen is the custodian during her husband’s (or her) reign.

 

[Blog Real]

I seriously doubt that this property is privately owned by members of the SRF. The taxes would be astronomical. They are like you said “relics of the Crown” and the current Queen is the custodian during her husband’s (or her) reign.

I think the jewels are private property of the Spanish Royal Family. Every article I've read indicates that.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Pilar Urbano’s open letter to Juan Carlos, asking him to reconsider his departure from Spain and explain himself to the nation (needs google translate)

https://www.elespanol.com/opinion/t...uan-carlos-rey-sitio-espana/511068889_12.html

 

[Prinsara]

Pilar Urbano’s open letter to Juan Carlos, asking him to reconsider his departure from Spain and explain himself to the nation (needs google translate)

https://www.elespanol.com/opinion/t...uan-carlos-rey-sitio-espana/511068889_12.html

Sounds like she also thinks a wider "goodbye" would have been the place to start.

If not facing the music in Spain.

 

[Lady Daly]

If you take the tiaras as a reference (never mind the various earrings, brooches, necklaces and other smaller pieces), the big Fleur de Lys, the Cartier Pearl and Diamond, and the Cartier Loop tiaras were all assumed to be privately owned by King Juan Carlos prior to the abdication; the Floral, the Mellerio Shell, the Prussian , and the Ruby necklace tiaras are supposed to be owned by Queen Sofia. The only tiara that was probably owned directly by Felipe and/or Letizia was the Ansorena Asturias tiara, which Letizia wore only once at Queen Margrethe II's 75th birthday gala dinner and was apparently a wedding gift. There are rumors that Letizia also owns a second, unseen wedding gift tiara, but that has never been confirmed.

Since Letizia has worn the Fleur de Lys, the Cartier Pearl and Diamond, the Cartier Loop, and the Floral tiaras since she became Queen, it is possible that ownership of the latter has been already transferred to Felipe, but we cannot say that for sure.

Thank you Mbruno for your inventory and historical knowlege of ownership. I should have specified tiaras but you understood my question correctly. I was only familiar with the history of the Fleur de Lys or "La Buena".

I think the jewels are private property of the Spanish Royal Family. Every article I've read indicates that.

In regard to the Fleur de Lys tiara I consulted The Court Jeweller Queen Sofia's Fleur-de-Lys Tiara | The Court Jeweller
"When Ena died in 1969, she bequeathed the tiara to her son, the Count of Barcelona. But she did so with a caveat: the tiara was earmarked specifically for the use of Spanish queens. Also reserved for the use of the Spanish queen in Ena's will, and therefore transferred to Letizia's collection, are Ena's diamond collet necklace, a pair of diamond earrings, a pair of diamond bracelets, and a number of pearl pieces, including a copy of the famous La Peregrina pearl pendant".
So in this case not only belonging to the Spanish Royal Family but part of the "joyas de pasar" or passing of the jewels collection. The Court Jeweller is writer and historian Lauren Kiehna with a Ph.D in British literature.

 

[Darius1]

Sounds like she also thinks a wider "goodbye" would have been the place to start.

If not facing the music in Spain.

Undoubtedly a heartfelt open letter by the monarchist author however, I don't think that the wider population would necessarily share her views or sentiments. The very idea of JC going on television would either mean an acceptance of financial impropriety or a blatant lie.

Much better that he has gone for the time being, pending some sort of solution or pact outside of the courts that might allow him to make restitutions although I don't think JC is at all disposed to do this.

 

[Lady Daly]

Pilar Urbano’s open letter to Juan Carlos, asking him to reconsider his departure from Spain and explain himself to the nation (needs google translate)

https://www.elespanol.com/opinion/t...uan-carlos-rey-sitio-espana/511068889_12.html

An additional link from the above website dissecting Juan Carlos letter to his son King Felipe from historical interpretation.
https://www.elespanol.com/espana/20...do-final-juan-carlos-pequena/510199832_0.html also requiring google translation.

 

[Darius1]

Speculation in today's La Vanguardia that JC only spent Monday night in Abu Dhabi and traveled to Saudi Arabia on Tuesday to visit King Salman who is in a delicate state of health and then traveled on elsewhere. Nothing has been confirmed or denied by Zarzuela.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Here you are mixing topics, but I am going to focus on the topic of inheritances. King Felipe in his declaration said that he renounces his father's inheritance. This is really a declaration of future intentions, because the reality, in Spanish law is that to be heir to King Juan Carlos, only one thing is needed, and that thing is, that King Juan Carlos would passed away. Only then would one speak of inheritance, and the possibility of accepting the inheritance or renouncing the inheritance.
King Felipe has made a declaration of intentions, but in the eyes of the law, the relevant thing would be that after the death of his father, and his inheritance opened, King Felipe will renounce to it. the law doesn´t obligate to Felipe to renounce the inheritance by this declarations.
I understand that King Felipe made this statement, he had to stop the speculations, I understand it. But his father also has a fortune, assets, legal investments, not all his activity is under suspicion, however in Spain it is not allowed to renounce only a part of the inheritance, you have to renounce the entire inheritance. Example, Felipe would can not renounce to the illegal or suspicion part of inheritance of his father and to accept of legal part.
If we think a bit, currently, that hypothetical future inheritance, which does not yet exist, would not include the amounts of the Swiss account, because King Juan Carlos emptied the account with transfers in favor of him and Corinna.

Yes, this will be very tricky. JC will have amassed a fortune partly legal partly illegal, and it's not possible to only accept part of an inheritance. If Felipe does accept, he will be under immense scrutiny and basically has to call in an auditor who will confirm that whatever he inherited from his father is not legally disputed what will be a difficult thing to do.

Another interesting question will be, what will his sisters or even grandchildren do? Will they say 'what I don't know won't hurt me'?

Even if JC was more clever in the past and set up trust funds for his children and grandchildren, that are not in his name but in theirs, it will be a risk to accept this because if there is any suspicion that could fall back on Felipe, living off money that once might have come from illegal sources, could be the end of the monarchy.
There has to be 100% transparency in this matter or else.

 

[victor1319]

Yes, this will be very tricky. JC will have amassed a fortune partly legal partly illegal, and it's not possible to only accept part of an inheritance.

I thought, that is, what trust funds are for: El Don Juan can put his ill-gotten gains into one... and if the monarchy in Spain is deposed, his offsping will have a soft pillow to rest.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

I’m not certain if Juan Carlos is heading for New Zealand as the borders are more or less closed to foreigners and non essential workers at present and ex-king isn’t an essential category acc to the government. However Peter Thiel was able to buy NZ citizenship and James Cameron’s film crew came in After lockdown was announced - who knows, maybe we owe Spain a favor and the government never told us...

https://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20200808/482703787417/rey-juan-carlos-nueva-zelanda.html

 

[Darius1]

I think JC is having a bit of fun with us by fuelling the speculation as to where in the world he is, perhaps to distract from the frantic negotiations that must be going on behind the scenes.
If we look at the reasons behind his leaving Spain and his current needs I still think he probably remains ensconced in Abu Dhabi.

 

[Lipe]

Yes, this will be very tricky. JC will have amassed a fortune partly legal partly illegal, and it's not possible to only accept part of an inheritance. If Felipe does accept, he will be under immense scrutiny and basically has to call in an auditor who will confirm that whatever he inherited from his father is not legally disputed what will be a difficult thing to do.

Another interesting question will be, what will his sisters or even grandchildren do? Will they say 'what I don't know won't hurt me'?

Even if JC was more clever in the past and set up trust funds for his children and grandchildren, that are not in his name but in theirs, it will be a risk to accept this because if there is any suspicion that could fall back on Felipe, living off money that once might have come from illegal sources, could be the end of the monarchy.
There has to be 100% transparency in this matter or else.

I agree with you. This case must be clarified, if the case would be archived and not investigated , in the future, this will generate many problems for King Felipe. First his father's inheritance, he could renounce it, but many people will wonder if there were undeclared funds, where are it... I believe that King Felipe is the first person in the country interested in, the truth, that this would be resolve, in favor of King Juan Carlos or against, but better solved the problem

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

I think JC is having a bit of fun with us by fuelling the speculation as to where in the world he is, perhaps to distract from the frantic negotiations that must be going on behind the scenes.
If we look at the reasons behind his leaving Spain and his current needs I still think he probably remains ensconced in Abu Dhabi.

If it had not been for the fact that he is facing criminal investigation in Switzerland , that’s the place I would have picked him ending up. However, I suspect New Zealand was thrown up as it’s one of the furthest places away from Spain, and indeed anywhere (I live in Nz, I’m allowed to say that).

It’s probable he’ll either stay in the Middle East with one of the local princes, or he will go somewhere in Latin America or the Caribbean, maybe one of the more developed African countries - somewhere Sunny, hot - and private. Preferably with no extradition treaty, invasive press, or accountable government.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I agree with you. This case must be clarified, if the case would be archived and not investigated , in the future, this will generate many problems for King Felipe. First his father's inheritance, he could renounce it, but many people will wonder if there were undeclared funds, where are it... I believe that King Felipe is the first person in the country interested in, the truth, that this would be resolve, in favor of King Juan Carlos or against, but better solved the problem

The truth might not only concern Juan Carlos, who is already fallen, but it might take other people with him, who he cannot or will not reveal. Businessmen, companies with favors ... how often does it happen that the political parties agree in Spain ... nobody wants to open the pandora's box unless the law forces them. I am sure many of the governments knew exactly what was going on and probably participated.
This is very dangerous for Felipe.

 

[victor1319]

I am just wondering, I mean, this is still only about the 100 million Dollar or something, Juan Carlos got as a kick-back for the railway in Saudi Arabia?

Where is here the damage for the spanish state coffers?

Or are they already talking about the 2 billion Dollars, Juan Carlos is alledgedly worth? There are some interesing contributions and links here at the beginning of the thread...

So, if there is any truth to the 2 billion Dollars, Felipe has an interesting choice at least, if he has one...

Juan Carlos could put the money into a foundation, not a trust fund , as I wrote falsly earlier: The Revolution Foundation - If the family gets dethroned and only then, they get the money; if not, the money stays in the foundation and piles up...

And Felipe can say: It is all not my fault! It is daddy's fault! And he has the choice: Poor King of a close to bankrupt country OR shining billionaire... choices, choices...

 

[Denville]

I am just wondering, I mean, this is still only about the 100 million Dollar or something, Juan Carlos got as a kick-back for the railway in Saudi Arabia?

Where is here the damage for the spanish state coffers?

Or are they already talking about the 2 billion Dollars, Juan Carlos is alledgedly worth? There are some interesing contributions and links here at the beginning of the thread...

So, if there is any truth to the 2 billion Dollars, Felipe has an interesting choice at least, if he has one...

Juan Carlos could put the money into a foundation, not a trust fund , as I wrote falsly earlier: The Revolution Foundation - If the family gets dethroned and only then, they get the money; if not, the money stays in the foundation and piles up...

And Felipe can say: It is all not my fault! It is daddy's fault! And he has the choice: Poor King of a close to bankrupt country OR shining billionaire... choices, choices...

Better he gets rid of any ill gotten gains, as I suspect his kingship is shaky...