King Juan Carlos - Fiscal Investigations, Inheritance and Exile : 2018-2022

[Lady Daly]

It's very difficult to predict how things are going to play out for Juan Carlos. If reports of PM Sanchez press conference yesterday was any indication: PM Pedro Sánchez took advantage of a planned press conference to defend the Spanish monarchy and the constitutional regime of 1978, while refusing to talk about the role of his executive in the flight to exile of the corruption-mired king emeritus, announced yesterday in a statement by the royal house. The Spanish PM argued that it is a confidential matter and even refused to reveal the country which the former king is now in, claiming he simply didn't know." “I have no information on where he is,” he affirmed. His remarks on the matter in his speech itself stressed that the country's political system was working rather than being in an unprecedented crisis. The elements of a "vigorous democracy" - media, prosecutors, courts - were all playing their parts as they should; the constitutional pact of 1978 - under which the king is Spain's head of state - is "as fully in force as ever". And the Spanish government had an "absolute respect" for the decisions taken by the royal house "to distance itself from certain supposed deplorable conduct by one of its members".
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politics/sanchez-spain-monarchy-avoids-juan-carlos_528012_102.html

 

[Countessmeout]

Actually trying JC for his crimes may actually help.

The problem with monarchies in many eyes are they are old fashioned and they are stuck in the past. Royals have all this money and power that they never earned and so on. And they are often criticized for being 'above the law'. Look at the UK and any time (and I am not even speaking Andrew) a royal has been seen breaking some law even if minor. And the controversy of how it was handled and if they got off easy. Like Philip's accident. Anne's dog attacking a person. Now we have Andrew.

Actually allowing for JC's daughter and her husband to stand trial, and that to be public was different. And making a show of JC not being above the law, to him answering to the same laws as his people will as well.

Royals have prestige. That's great. But if they look like they are above the law of common man, they look like dictators and autocrats (even if they don't have any real power). Its the perception they are giving to the public. And in the long run it is even more reason to push to abolish them.


I think there is actually some concern JC WONT go to court over this. And instead of being a relief, the royals and their advisors are worried. They want some conclusion to this spectacle which will leave the people feeling like some justice was served. And that wont happen if he isn't tried. So they send him into 'exile' in hopes of saying 'these are the consequences'. And emphasize the investigation continues, and there may be more.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Pedro Sánchez took advantage of a planned press conference to defend the Spanish monarchy and the constitutional regime of 1978, while refusing to talk about the role of his executive in the flight to exile of the corruption-mired king emeritus, announced yesterday in a statement by the royal house.

That could mean one of two things:

1) JCs flight from Spain is part of a deal being cut between the government and the royal house to avoid the embarrassment of a trial And all the awkward questions about the governments role in this whole mess.

2) the government in fact were in the dark and only found out after the fact and the royal household is for all intents and purposes beyond their control and influence

Either way it doesn’t look good.

The Spanish PM argued that it is a confidential matter and even refused to reveal the country which the former king is now in, claiming he simply didn't know." “I have no information on where he is,” he affirmed. His remarks on the matter in his speech itself stressed that the country's political system was working rather than being in an unprecedented crisis.

The departure of a former head of state who is being investigated over corruption allegations is not a private matter. That’s the wrong answer, Pedro. Since JC has not been arrested they can’t revoke his passport or keep him under house arrest, but allowing him to practically saunter out is either conspiracy or incompetence.

The elements of a "vigorous democracy" - media, prosecutors, courts - were all playing their parts as they should; the constitutional pact of 1978 - under which the king is Spain's head of state - is "as fully in force as ever". And the Spanish government had an "absolute respect" for the decisions taken by the royal house "to distance itself from certain supposed deplorable conduct by one of its members".

These elements all conspicuously failed to perform their role regarding JCs behaviour until it got too egregious to ignore and was being investigated outside Spain. It’s not a question of the royal family dealing with a personal matter. It’s a serous question of government transparency and competence.
It’s a systemic problem not simply one of individual wrongdoing.

 

[Darius1]

From what I have been able to glean Government and Palace worked in collaboration on JC's exit. I doubt it is in the interest of Pedro Sanchez's Party that there be a court case to investigate this. JC may appear via video link to answer some questions but a full judicial investigation would undoubtedly uncover a long trail of financial impropriety going back to before the transition. I cannot imagine that JC operated without the knowledge of those in power during his reign. Any investigation is going to detonate the myth that has grown up around the post-Franco era, leaving only separatists and UP untainted. Not good for JC, not good for Felipe and not good for centrist democracy in an already fragmenting Spain.

 

[Lady Daly]

Actually trying JC for his crimes may actually help.

The problem with monarchies in many eyes are they are old fashioned and they are stuck in the past. Royals have all this money and power that they never earned and so on. And they are often criticized for being 'above the law'. Look at the UK and any time (and I am not even speaking Andrew) a royal has been seen breaking some law even if minor. And the controversy of how it was handled and if they got off easy. Like Philip's accident. Anne's dog attacking a person. Now we have Andrew.

Actually allowing for JC's daughter and her husband to stand trial, and that to be public was different. And making a show of JC not being above the law, to him answering to the same laws as his people will as well.

Royals have prestige. That's great. But if they look like they are above the law of common man, they look like dictators and autocrats (even if they don't have any real power). Its the perception they are giving to the public. And in the long run it is even more reason to push to abolish them.


I think there is actually some concern JC WONT go to court over this. And instead of being a relief, the royals and their advisors are worried. They want some conclusion to this spectacle which will leave the people feeling like some justice was served. And that wont happen if he isn't tried. So they send him into 'exile' in hopes of saying 'these are the consequences'. And emphasize the investigation continues, and there may be more.

JC may now have to face the consequences of his many years of perceived corruption in taking money and other gifts, etc. The current Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is fairly new, voted in in 2018 due to PM Mariano Rajoy's no vote of confidence. Again this January another vote was taken resulting in a coalition government maintaining Sanchez as PM but giving the leftist group Podemos Unidos further power. My concern is that the investigations and a trial against Juan Carlos will do the opposite and destabilize the current government giving the anti Monarchists further power leaving Spain without a Monarchy. It could go either way, I guess we will find out in due time.

It would be great if those that live in Spain could weigh in.

 

[Lady Daly]

From what I have been able to glean Government and Palace worked in collaboration on JC's exit. I doubt it is in the interest of Pedro Sanchez's Party that there be a court case to investigate this. JC may appear via video link to answer some questions but a full judicial investigation would undoubtedly uncover a long trail of financial impropriety going back to before the transition. I cannot imagine that JC operated without the knowledge of those in power during his reign. Any investigation is going to detonate the myth that has grown up around the post-Franco era, leaving only separatists and UP untainted. Not good for JC, not good for Felipe and not good for centrist democracy in an already fragmenting Spain.

Sorry, I didn't see your post. This is my thinking as well.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

JC may now have to face the consequences of his many years of perceived corruption in taking money and other gifts, etc. The current Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is fairly new, voted in in 2018 due to PM Mariano Rajoy's no vote of confidence. Again this January another vote was taken resulting in a coalition government maintaining Sanchez as PM but giving the leftist group Podemos Unidos further power. My concern is that the investigations and a trial against Juan Carlos will do the opposite and destabilize the current government giving the anti Monarchists further power leaving Spain without a Monarchy. It could go either way, I guess we will find out in due time.

In the broader historical scheme of things this is in some respects unfinished business from the post 1975 era. A lot - too much - was swept under the carpet during the transition and there has never really been any catharsis About the wrongdoing of the Franco regime. No former regime personnel were ever held accountable for their actions and this helped perpetuate a culture of impunity and unaccountability well into the current day. A culture which JC is increasingly seen to embody in the eyes of a lot of younger people.

Since Franco and his henchmen are dead, and JC is the only major figure of the period still alive, and will always be associated with him, putting JC on trial may well end up being the whole Franco era ruling elite, the transition and 1978 pact on trial in practice, which might wind up doing more harm than good.

 

[Mbruno]

I think at this stage that it is wishful thinking that this might blow over and JC be left alone in Portugal to enjoy his dotage. There is growing momentum in Spain pushing for a referendum on the monarchy, driven by Podemos Unidos party, the far-left coalition partner in Spain's government, with an agenda for radical change.

When the Prime Minister has to come out publicly to say he supports the monarchy I think this is a sign of the uncertainty of things to come. At the start of Felipe's reign it seemed that pressing criminal charges against his sister and brother-in-law was the price to pay to demonstrate transparency and garner support for the institution, I think the next step will be some sort of condemnation, if not trial of JC, all in all eroding any prestige left.

I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to see a referendum being called, and lost. The median age of the population is early 40's. JC himself has said that he is likely only to be known amongst those under 40 for Corrina, Elephants and a suitcase of cash. If the population were to weigh up what the monarchy had done for them, 23 F Coup d' Etat is probably the only glowing moment in the national consciousness. There is very little else to affectionately bind the monarchy to the people.

Those wishing to eliminate the monarchy have smelled blood. They won't stop now.

A referendum can be called only if, before that, a constitutional amendment to end the monarchy is passed twice by at least 2/3 of the members of each of the two houses of Parliament, with a general election taking place between the two votes. It is not going to happen as long as the two largest parties in Parliament (PSOE and PP) continue to support the monarchy.



Recent polls also show a mixed picture in terms of popular support. Although some polls have support for the republic slightly above (or close to) 50 % nationally, the regional breakdowns show that only Galicia, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Asturias and the Balearic Islands have a republican majority. Those are regions which have a sense of being culturally distinct from the rest of Spain and where, I believe, the monarchy is identified with the unitary Spanish state in the minds of most people, hence the opposition thereto.


In the long run, I think the Spanish monarchy would benefit then if Spain transitioned to a federal system like in Belgium, which in my opinion is more likely to happen in the next decade than the abolition of the monarchy.



I agree, however, that the Spanish monarchy, albeit not in imminent danger, is currently the most fragile among the extant European monarchies.

Since Franco and his henchmen are dead, and JC is the only major figure of the period still alive, and will always be associated with him, putting JC on trial may well end up being the whole Franco era ruling elite, the transition and 1978 pact on trial in practice, which might wind up doing more harm than good.

It is true that republicans and the far-leftists identify JC and the monarchy with Franco, but that claim is actually difficult to reconcile nowadays with the fact that the Socialist Party (PSOE) has been in government longer than any other Spanish party since 1978.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

It is true that republicans and the far-leftists identify JC and the monarchy with Franco, but that claim is actually difficult to reconcile nowadays with the fact that the Socialist Party (PSOE) has been in government longer than any other Spanish party since 1978.

That may well be true but Podemos could well get the upper hand and JC And the monarchy would be the easiest And quickest scalp for them to take As part of consolidating their power. Don’t rule it out.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The Supreme Court refuses to adopt precautionary measures against King Juan Carlos because it has not been investigated.

The Vacations Room of the Supreme Court has rejected the adoption of precautionary measures requested by the entity Cultural Omnium against King Juan Carlos in a letter demanding its location and urgent summons.

In an order issued this Wednesday, the Chamber recalls that the Spanish procedural system "does not contemplate the adoption of precautionary measures with respect to those who do not have the status of being investigated", as is the case of King Juan Carlos.

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-supr...no-esta-investigado-202008051424_noticia.html

The informative links are much appreciated.

Do you or anyone have a link to public surveys evaluating reactions to the king emeritus's "exile"? I have seen a reference to a survey showing 68% disapproval of the decision but could not find it.

 

[An Ard Ri]

King Juan Carlos reputation will never recover from this and all that was accomplished during his almost 40 year reign will be long forgotten and he will have a tainted/tarnished image.

 

[Darius1]

I lived in Spain for 15 years, still have a home and my partner there. I lived in Catalonia which is increasingly estranged from Spain and has even gone so far as to declare unilateral independence after a referendum which was quashed by Madrid and the EU. Catalonia historically has resented the Bourbons and was on the side of Archduke Charles back in the war of the Spanish Succession. A number of Catalan cities have even gone as far to declare JC and Felipe as Persona non grata in council. It is not a stretch of the imagination that this region could leave Spain as I think the moment for a federal solution has been lost. JC was very much associated with having been nominated as Franco's heir, although the settlement and Constitution was approved in referendum. During the 1980's and 90's with Spain economically and socially in the ascendant, JC's response to the attempted coup d'etat and the agreement with the press to steer clear of any criticism of the monarchy bolstered the institution.

The Financial Crisis of 2008, massive unemployment, Letizia, Botsuana, Undangarin have all eroded the post-transition vision of the monarchy. In my experience the feeling amongst young - middle aged Spaniards is that the monarchy is either irrelevant or redundant.

There is little folk memory of love or respect for Spanish kings or queens (eg. UK Queen Victoria who presided over an era of British prestige, George VI and his bravery during WWII...). There hasn't been a Bourbon monarch with an entirely unblemished reign in the last 200 years. JC seemed to have secured this with his role as facilitator of democracy.

There is an interesting poll showing that significant numbers even amongst voters of right-wing parties that traditionally support the monarchy believe that JC's actions have damaged the institution. The number is much higher with Socialist voters etc.

This could be the last act of post-Civil War politics in Spain. Franco was exhumed from his mausoleum. For many on the left now may be the moment to bury the Bourbons.

 

[SLV]

The Financial Crisis of 2008, massive unemployment, Letizia, Botsuana, Undangarin have all eroded the post-transition vision of the monarchy. In my experience the feeling amongst young - middle aged Spaniards is that the monarchy is either irrelevant or redundant.

What did Letizia do wrong?

 

[Blog Real]

What did Letizia do wrong?

Letizia since joining the Spanish Royal Family has done few wrong things.
Letizia's biggest controversy was that confusion with Queen Sofia at Easter Mass 2018, but this did no harm to the monarchy.
The great controversies of the Spanish monarchy were caused by Infanta Cristina's husband and King Juan Carlos.
Letizia and Felipe, after all, are the biggest victims of everything that is happening.

 

[An Ard Ri]

King Juan Carlos probably never thought he'd end up living in exile like his grandfather Alfonso XIII.

 

[IRIS1983]

The journalist, monarchist and friend of the King, Alfonso Ussia, has told on the radio that King Juan Carlos has written him a message, in that message he says: "Thank you very much. This is a parenthesis, not a vacation. Hugs to all "
In conclusion, this is not an exile, he is going to return to Spain.
King Juan Carlos does not want to harm his son, and while this situation is not cleared up, he will be far away to avoid harming him. But he will come back.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

What did Letizia do wrong?

she didn't do anything wrong, but she did not make the monarchy any more popular either. From the beginning, people did not really warm to her, and she was perceived as cold or arrogant. The royal house threw her under the bus by not allowing her an agenda and stood watching while she was torn apart by the gossip press, very convenient to deflect from other issues.



I too think that Juan Carlos did not 'exile' himself in the true sense of the meaning but he had to leave State property and it's easier to be invisible abroad in a private house than in Spain.

Leaving does not mean that the talk about him will stop, rather the opposite.

There is something I do not understand in this whole Juan Carlos kickback/bribery/corruption money. Perhaps someone could explain.

It is established fact that KJC received $100 million from the late king of Saudi Arabia some years ago. (well documented press articles referred to the Ministry of finance in Saudi admitting to the transfer *gift*) It is widely rumoured that this has to do with Spanish consortium obtaining a big contract to do a train link in Saudi Arabia.
In cases like that it is the company who seeks the contract who pays the kickback. So logic would tell us that the Spanish consortium who is after the big contract would “give” a bribe/kick back/$favour -whatever you call it- to the decision maker in Saudi Arabia in exchange for them making the decision in favour of said company.. Not the other way around. I could also imagine the Spanish consortium contractor paying a gratification to KJC so that he could use his contacts, intercede in their favour with his friends the decision makers in Saudi Arabia. But why would the decision maker -Saudi Arabia-who awards the contract give a kickback in this case?
Everything in this case defies logic. Then turn around and transfer a huge chunk of the money to your mistress. Oh boy.... There is a lot we don’t know about this case.

Yes, logic dictates that either the Arabs get the money for awarding the contract or the Spanish companies pay Juan Carlos for clearing the path with the Arabs.
One of the theories is that because it was impossible for the Spanish companies to pay bribe money to the King directly, they agreed that the Arabs would deduct the percentage for the old King from the amount they owe the Spanish companies and give it directly to him.


OK, I don't have any explanation for giving the money to a woman like Corinna and name Felipe as beneficiary. Other than stupidity I mean.

 

[Somebody]

What did Letizia do wrong?

Being divorced, republican (according to her aunt?), not religious and of a non-noble background was not appreciated at all by the supporters of the monarchy. In addition, she is perceived as cold and controlling and the one who divided the family by driving a wedge between Felipe and his siblings and also his friends.

However, any further discussion on Letizia probably should be moved to a different thread.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

One of the theories is that because it was impossible for the Spanish companies to pay bribe money to the King directly, they agreed that the Arabs would deduct the percentage for the old King from the amount they owe the Spanish companies and give it directly to him.

The other theory was that the payment was made by Abdullah to JC as reward for getting the Spanish consortium to offer a discount on their bid so it came in substantially cheaper than the French and German bids.

OK, I don't have any explanation for giving the money to a woman like Corinna and name Felipe as beneficiary. Other than stupidity I mean.

As I said in an earlier post JC gave Corinna On impulse (which is why the paperwork was not in order) the money to punish F and his sisters for siding with Sofia - equine to to leaving them out of the will.

 

[An Ard Ri]

However, any further discussion on Letizia probably should be moved to a different thread.

Yes and on that note lets keep this thread on topic ,there are other threads see below to discuss,Letizia and the Press,her ever delightful aunt and Relationships in the RF.

Queen Letizia and the Press


https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f11/queen-letizia-and-the-press-16231.html




Relationships between Members of the Spanish Royal Family


https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...embers-of-the-spanish-royal-family-13487.html

Queen Letizia's Family

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f11/queen-letizias-family-part-5-may-2013-a-35083.html

 

[Lipe]

The Spanish monarchy is guaranteed, currently, because the Constitution has an aggravated process, if a referendum is held, the Spanish people would vote in favor of the monarchy, because today in Spain the reform of the constitution is identified with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, and With ideologies of the left and anarchists. These political formations, in direct vote they do not even represent 20% .. These parties have a political weight in parliament due to the system of distribution of seats, the D'Hondt system. However, in a referendum the direct voting system is applied, not the D´Hondt. If the constitutional would be reformed and it would not be represented with these political formations, the monarchy could be in danger, but it is not case.
We Spaniards think that if the constitution would be reformed , it would be to give the pro-prerogatives and privileges to the independence movement, that's why we would not vote in favor of Republic

 

[Helen.CH]

wow, it's surprising Sofia did not accompany her husband, due to being religious and conservative though all the rumours during the last decades say differently of course.
i think it' s sad for a family and couple to sacrifice a member for the good of the business.,
despite what happended and I guess all of them liked the luxury the income of JC over the years gave them.

 

[Darius1]

The Spanish monarchy is guaranteed, currently, because the Constitution has an aggravated process, if a referendum is held, the Spanish people would vote in favor of the monarchy, because today in Spain the reform of the constitution is identified with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, and With ideologies of the left and anarchists. These political formations, in direct vote they do not even represent 20% .. These parties have a political weight in parliament due to the system of distribution of seats, the D'Hondt system. However, in a referendum the direct voting system is applied, not the D´Hondt. If the constitutional would be reformed and it would not be represented with these political formations, the monarchy could be in danger, but it is not case.
We Spaniards think that if the constitution would be reformed , it would be to give the pro-prerogatives and privileges to the independence movement, that's why we would not vote in favor of Republic

I agree that the system of direct voting might complicate an overall majority for a Republic however, if one were to be called the high percentage of returns favouring a change to the current system would be one that would be leveraged to continue to erode the position of Felipe as Head of State. I have seen few countries where political affiliations are so visible as Spain. I see more flags of the Spanish republic hanging on balconies in Madrid that I see the national flag, ditto for the separatist flags in Catalonia and the Basque Country. Sadly I meet and speak to few middle class or working class people under the age of 50 that wholeheartedly support Constitutional monarchy as their system of government.

 

[Lady Daly]

The Spanish monarchy is guaranteed, currently, because the Constitution has an aggravated process, if a referendum is held, the Spanish people would vote in favor of the monarchy, because today in Spain the reform of the constitution is identified with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, and With ideologies of the left and anarchists. These political formations, in direct vote they do not even represent 20% .. These parties have a political weight in parliament due to the system of distribution of seats, the D'Hondt system. However, in a referendum the direct voting system is applied, not the D´Hondt. If the constitutional would be reformed and it would not be represented with these political formations, the monarchy could be in danger, but it is not case.
We Spaniards think that if the constitution would be reformed , it would be to give the pro-prerogatives and privileges to the independence movement, that's why we would not vote in favor of Republic

Thank you so much Lipe for further detail into the protections currently in place under the constitution protecting the Monarchy. So if Juan Carlos were to be investigated and further action were required it wouldn't necessarily jeopardize the Monarchy as I had originally thought. Current opposition in its entirety is less than 20%. I am so glad to hear this. Again, thank you.

 

[Countessmeout]

King Juan Carlos probably never thought he'd end up living in exile like his grandfather Alfonso XIII.

He was born in exile. He was 10 before he ever step foot in Spain.

But yes he likely never thought he would face being exiled again from Spain. Its different being born in exile, to being exiled yourself.

His wife and brother in law can commiserate with him. They were exiled as children from Greece. And Constantine of course as ex-king for decades. Constantine got to return to Greece eventually, even if a private citizen, but it took him nearly 40 years to return.

I doubt JC will be as lucky. I think he will have to make peace with living out the remainder of his life in whatever spot he has chosen to make his home now. Unless he gets called back to face criminal charges for this.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

ABC reporting that Juan Carlos is in Abu Dhabi

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...to-abu-dhabi-says-abc-newspaper-idUSKCN2530PB

Reports that he turned down offer to hide out in Saudi Arabia

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200806-ex-king-of-spain-refused-offer-to-move-to-saudi/

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Honestly, I don't believe he was in Spain very often at least after he officially retired. We often saw him in the middle east anyway, for Formula One etc.
So I doubt he was a lot in Spain in person but of course his official residence was Zarzuela and they had to change that, the old King living in public property.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Honestly, I don't believe he was in Spain very often at least after he officially retired. We often saw him in the middle east anyway, for Formula One etc.
So I doubt he was a lot in Spain in person but of course his official residence was Zarzuela and they had to change that, the old King living in public property.

But still, JC fleeing to the gulf is less ‘European monarch’
and more ‘third world kleptocrat’ territory. It’s not a cute look, is all I’m sayin’.

 

[Darius1]

I stated in an earlier post that spending this "parenthesis" in a gulf state would be a highly likely option for JC.

As the guest of a fabulously wealthy gulf royal family JC would be treated as an honoured guest and former head of state, have his expenses met allowing him to live in the style he is accustomed to, be protected far from the eyes of prying press or paparazzi, and potentially be afforded diplomatic status to circumvent any calls for extradition that may arise.

I do believe he will return to Spain but this will be at the end, if and when his health breaks and he is allowed home to end his days.

At the moment I believe the hope is "out of sight, out of mind". The saga is already falling off the front pages of the Spanish press.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Honestly, I don't believe he was in Spain very often at least after he officially retired. We often saw him in the middle east anyway, for Formula One etc.
So I doubt he was a lot in Spain in person but of course his official residence was Zarzuela and they had to change that, the old King living in public property.

With the fortune king Juan Carlos is reported to have he could have bought himself a nice secluded property and lived there.