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  #581  
Old 08-21-2020, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
" must be painful for his confessor" is the wrong idea of what confession is for both sides. anyway this is really! meant to remain between man and the Lord himself ! a priest appreciates any person who does confess his/her sins.

Sofia did not change her religion as the orthodox church and the roman catholic are "sisters".

I do not know what Sofia is like, maybe she is as cild as she looks in some photographs? this not to excuse JC's adultery, but as I wrote before there is always two in a broken marriage.
Thats not what was meant.. It must indeed be painful for a confessor to have to deal with someone who seems to have litlte real desire to give up his adulterous relationships...
And as For Sofia, I dont know much bout her but I am fairly sure she converted to Roman Catholicism....
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  #582  
Old 08-21-2020, 08:01 AM
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H.M.Queen Sofia is Roman Catholic but was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church prior to her wedding.
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  #583  
Old 08-21-2020, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
H.M.Queen Sofia is Roman Catholic but was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church prior to her wedding.
That's what I thought, that seh had converted. I think that in a strongly Catholic country like Spain, she would have to, in order to marry Juan Carlos.
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  #584  
Old 08-21-2020, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
That's what I thought, that seh had converted. I think that in a strongly Catholic country like Spain, she would have to, in order to marry Juan Carlos.
At the time of the marriage Roman Catholicism was the State religion of Spain and that was the case until 1978 or there abouts.
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  #585  
Old 08-21-2020, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
" must be painful for his confessor" is the wrong idea of what confession is for both sides. anyway this is really! meant to remain between man and the Lord himself ! a priest appreciates any person who does confess his/her sins.

Sofia did not change her religion as the orthodox church and the roman catholic are "sisters".

I do not know what Sofia is like, maybe she is as cild as she looks in some photographs? this not to excuse JC's adultery, but as I wrote before there is always two in a broken marriage.
I apologise if I gave any offense , .I was not clear . I understand that what is said in the confessional is between the individual and God . I meant that although a priest would hopefully understand human failings , that if he is time and again having to listen to and offer pardon to the same person for the same sin it would cause him pain as a priest . I understand that the confessional is private , and that the priest concerned is not meant to be able to identify an individual , however given his position I have no doubt that JC had a personal confessor .
Sophia not only changed the spelling of her name to Sofia , she did indeed change her religion . Indeed she , and JC had a Roman Catholic , and a separate Greek Orthodox marriage ceremony. In 1962 there may have been dialogue between the church's but "sisters" they were not . Three weeks after the wedding it was announced that she was converting to Roman Catholicism .
I have never considered Sofia to be cold , she has a demonstrably loving relationship with her family , both Greek and Spanish . Considering the strain under which their early marriage was lived , constant surveillance by franco I am not surprised that the strain showed in some photographs .
As for there being two in a broken marriage , my understanding from the various threads is that the marriage was not "broken " until the facts of JC's adulteries was put front and centre in Sofia's face publicly . They still managed however to continue to raise their children together , to live under the same roof , and to work for Spain , and it's people .
My thanks to those posters who despite my lack of clarity got my point .
I think that enough has been said about Sofia and JC's marriage and we should get back to the fiscal investigation's , inheritance etc
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  #586  
Old 08-21-2020, 11:37 AM
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That is he Work of the Moderateurs. It is about the King investigations !
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  #587  
Old 08-21-2020, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
H.M.Queen Sofia is Roman Catholic but was a member of the Greek Orthodox Church prior to her wedding.
yes, but its not a big thing, because rc and orhodox share the same tradition.
sorry, i studied theology and might no better than some here.
if a Protestant converted to rc ie versa that's a really big thing.

orthodox an rc can even share sacraments with each other services.

but back o fiscal things.
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  #588  
Old 08-21-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
yes, but its not a big thing, because rc and orhodox share the same tradition.
sorry, i studied theology and might no better than some here.
if a Protestant converted to rc ie versa that's a really big thing.

orthodox an rc can even share sacraments with each other services.

but back o fiscal things.
It is a big thing, Sofia would not have been acceptable in Spain had she not converted at the time of her marriage...
As for fiscal things, do we have enough information.....
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  #589  
Old 08-21-2020, 12:14 PM
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I thing changing your religion, no matter how small a change, is big as it shows your commitment to your new country.

Sofia has behaved impeccably IMO, storming out and demanding a divorce, which was the only thing she could do, would have caused scandal especially back when JC first cheated on her in the 70s/80s, remember until quite recently relatively speaking the Spanish RF were left alone by the media. She has served Span well, more so when you consider it is not her original "home" country.

I wonder how much of a fortune JC is sitting on, it doesn't seem to have been that huge a thing dropping his allowance so he must be comfortably off IMO.
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  #590  
Old 08-21-2020, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
I thing changing your religion, no matter how small a change, is big as it shows your commitment to your new country.

Sofia has behaved impeccably IMO, storming out and demanding a divorce, which was the only thing she could do, would have caused scandal especially back when JC first cheated on her in the 70s/80s, remember until quite recently relatively speaking the Spanish RF were left alone by the media. She has served Span well, more so when you consider it is not her original "home" country.

I wonder how much of a fortune JC is sitting on, it doesn't seem to have been that huge a thing dropping his allowance so he must be comfortably off IMO.
As a royal whatever country she marries into is her country and she's supposed to be devoted to its interests..and "storming out" wasn't an option in the 1970s any more than it was easy for Charles and Diana to get a divorce. She's done her duty, we don't know the ins and outs of the marraiage..and we dont know what her attitude to JC's financial goings on is...
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  #591  
Old 08-21-2020, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
yes, but its not a big thing, because rc and orhodox share the same tradition.
sorry, i studied theology and might no better than some here.
if a Protestant converted to rc ie versa that's a really big thing.

orthodox an rc can even share sacraments with each other services.

but back o fiscal things.

I think it can be big deal. I am a Roman Catholic and to me, it would be a big deal to covert to the Orthodox Church. In fact, I wouldn't but of course, becoming the future Queen of Spain, Sofia had other things to consider than just whether to take on her spouse's faith.
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  #592  
Old 08-21-2020, 12:50 PM
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Can we move on from Religious Conversions/Faith and who knows best and Stay on Topic!
Any future off topic comments will be deleted
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  #593  
Old 08-22-2020, 01:27 AM
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Felipe has now renounced the rights to any money from Juan Carlos? Does this mean that th Spanish monarchy is reasoanbly safe?
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  #594  
Old 08-22-2020, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Felipe has now renounced the rights to any money from Juan Carlos? Does this mean that th Spanish monarchy is reasoanbly safe?
For the time being - the two main problems are, as far as i can tell, are:

1) Catalonia and the other regions and their relationship to Madrid

2) corruption

Getting jc out of the way and renouncing the inheritance partially solves problem 2, but problem 1 is a lot bigger and F has for all intents and purposes burnt his bridges with that disgraceful speech in 2018(?). I do however think that 70 politicians singing that petition on JC’s behalf looks promising. The regional issue seems bigger and corruption is mostly a sideshow.

Also who knows what other skeletons there are in the RF’s closet?
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  #595  
Old 08-22-2020, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Felipe has now renounced the rights to any money from Juan Carlos? Does this mean that th Spanish monarchy is reasoanbly safe?
Is this news or something other than the inheritance?
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  #596  
Old 08-22-2020, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
For the time being - the two main problems are, as far as i can tell, are:

1) Catalonia and the other regions and their relationship to Madrid

2) corruption

Getting jc out of the way and renouncing the inheritance partially solves problem 2, but problem 1 is a lot bigger and F has for all intents and purposes burnt his bridges with that disgraceful speech in 2018(?). I do however think that 70 politicians singing that petition on JC’s behalf looks promising. The regional issue seems bigger and corruption is mostly a sideshow.

Also who knows what other skeletons there are in the RF’s closet?

I must admit that, at the time, I also thought the King's speech was a mistake and something monarchs in other countries would not have done, but, much to my surprise, although it may have burned some bridges for Felipe in Catalonia, apparently it boosted his support elsewhere in Spain.



On the issue of possible skeletons on the RF's closet, one good thing that can be said about Letizia is that she is not indifferent to certain types of behavior which, otherwise, Spanish culture seems to tolerate. I can't tell whether that is because of her background as a journalist or her middle-class origin, but the fact is that she would not tolerate corruption for example (as seen by her demands to cut any ties with Cristina and Iñaki) and, from what I read, her relationship with JC soured because the RF, including Felipe, knew about JC's infidelity and accepted it, while she could not understand that.
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  #597  
Old 08-23-2020, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
For the time being - the two main problems are, as far as i can tell, are:

1) Catalonia and the other regions and their relationship to Madrid


But 1 is a political Issue about which the King/the RF can not do much. It ahs done by the pilocitians but even them political Parties don#t agree about what it to be done.
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  #598  
Old 08-23-2020, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I must admit that, at the time, I also thought the King's speech was a mistake and something monarchs in other countries would not have done, but, much to my surprise, although it may have burned some bridges for Felipe in Catalonia, apparently it boosted his support elsewhere in Spain.
That just makes the “us vs them” mindset worse. Frankly, I’m convinced that Catalan independence is a case of “when’ not “if” and that the present course of action By both the government and the crown is simply delaying the inevitable. Indeed that speech might well earn F his place in the history books as the man who lost Catalonia, something far worse than embezzlement and sexual promiscuity.

For all his poor decisions, JC would never have said something like that and at least tried to understand the Non Castilian regions - something F seems unable or unwilling to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On the issue of possible skeletons on the RF's closet, one good thing that can be said about Letizia is that she is not indifferent to certain types of behavior which, otherwise, Spanish culture seems to tolerate. I can't tell whether that is because of her background as a journalist or her middle-class origin, but the fact is that she would not tolerate corruption for example (as seen by her demands to cut any ties with Cristina and Iñaki) and, from what I read, her relationship with JC soured because the RF, including Felipe, knew about JC's infidelity and accepted it, while she could not understand that.
I suspect the real reason is a generation gap. Younger people are less tolerant of all this as they grew up after Franco died and have higher expectations than their elders.

Its also about class too. Spain’s political/business elite and high society are willing to tolerate stuff like that as they are the ones who benefit, but the man and woman on the street never have - they’re in a better position than in the past to make their displeasure known and plush back than in the past.

On top of that attitudes to sex and relationships have changed dramatically as well - this is one of the major reasons behind all the criticism of JC’s behavior and the way its been treated - its not just anachronistic, its an embarrassing throwback to A past many in Spain want to leave behind.

Letizia falls into both the post Franco generational band and was from a very middle class background (actual middle class, not nouveau riche social climbers like the Duchess of Cambridge’s family) So her views and Actions make total sense with all this taken into account. And if she stood up to JC about his actions, good on her! Somebody had to. Also avoiding Christina and her husband was also just common sense.
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  #599  
Old 08-23-2020, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post



Letizia falls into both the post Franco generational band and was from a very middle class background (actual middle class, not nouveau riche social climbers like the Duchess of Cambridge’s family)
Off topic but you apparently don't know much about Michael Middleton's family background which is anything but nouveau riche.
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  #600  
Old 08-23-2020, 04:43 AM
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Let's keep the British royal family out of this thread & return to the Spanish RF.
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