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  #521  
Old 08-18-2020, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Well put Duke of Marmalade
"It's sad to see that at some point he lost his way, very regrettable. Hopefully he does not destroy the little bit of respect that the Spanish owe him for his early years."

I'm not giving excuses nor could I truly understand fully the dynamics of Spain's history but I have thought in regard to the dictatorship of Francisco Franco, what if Spain were still in a dictatorship mode of government? If King Juan Carlos had failed in his early leadership or as I understand it and perhaps wrongly what if Juan Carlos had not steered Spain into a parliamentary constitutional monarchy. I so appreciated the filmed interview showing the SRF and specifically Juan Carlos from the 1990's to give context and depth into the current situation today. I must say Juan Carlos was very charming and Queen Sophia with a strong voice and independent thinking.
I don't want to get into making excuses, though. I don't think JC's "middle path" to democracy had to include quite so much corruption. Certainly by whenever the Saudis gave him that money, it wasn't for the stability of Spain, just for his own pocket.

I like the younger him and I feel a bit of sympathy now that I only had for his "likely fratricide" status before, but I still feel way sorrier for Felipe and the load JC dumped on him and his family.
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  #522  
Old 08-18-2020, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It was not just promoting democracy, but turning Spain into a modern European country when the alternatives, as Darius said, would have been going back to a traditionalist righ-wing authoritarian state like the Franco regime or a Carlist monarchy, or a Bolivarian people's republic a la Venezuela, none of which would have been sustainable in the long run and would probably have ended badly.



Of course, it was not JC alone who did it, but he kickstarted the process when he was the only person capable of doing it, because he correctly realized it was the only viable future for Spain, and, then, he voluntarily stepped back as he should to let the politicians run the country. And, as much as we now think of the 2008 crisis and the current public health emergency and picture Spain as crisis country, the reality is that, in the past 40 years, not only did Spain enjoy political stability, but also it was a great economic success.



Yes, I think it is unfortunate that JC has damaged his reputation and legacy so late in his life after all he had been through before (including poverty and his mother having to "sell some jewels to pay the rent" as he mentioned in the 1992 interview). But when you also hear grandees of the 1980s and 1990s like Felipe Gonzalez or Javier Solana, who are important European (not only Spanish) personalities, praising his work as king, one has to admit that, at least at his prime, he was a very good monarch.
I have to agree, J-C had a key role in the development of Spain into a modern, progressive western European democracy. The result could well have been very different.

He has devoted his life to the country. From childhood, when he was packed off to live without his parents, in the care of the very individual who has exiled his grand father and father. To then, as an adult, skillfully navigating his way through to ensuring his announcement as heir and then eventually King, and all that followed. After all that, it is a pity that his own limitations and actions have led to his own legacy being blotted. A real shame, IMO!
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  #523  
Old 08-18-2020, 10:03 AM
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If you think about it, being raised by a dictator kind of ensures that you will develop a facade of being agreeable and compliant while doing whatever you think you need to where no one can see. :/
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  #524  
Old 08-18-2020, 10:47 AM
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I remember the esteem King Juan Carlos was once held in ,back in 1986 after his State Visit to the Irish Republic had concluded the then President of Ireland,Dr Patrick Hillery invited the Spanish king and queen to visit him at his holiday home aptly named Spanish Point and spend the weekend as his guests!

Now that does not happen too often,I think only Prince Rainier and Princess Grace were accorded that honour.

Back in 2014 the king was one year off celebrating his Ruby Jubilee which could have been a celebration of all his achievements but instead came his abdication.
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  #525  
Old 08-18-2020, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
I don't want to get into making excuses, though. I don't think JC's "middle path" to democracy had to include quite so much corruption. Certainly by whenever the Saudis gave him that money, it wasn't for the stability of Spain, just for his own pocket.

I like the younger him and I feel a bit of sympathy now that I only had for his "likely fratricide" status before, but I still feel way sorrier for Felipe and the load JC dumped on him and his family.
Yes, JC has derailed. I definitely have compassion for Felipe and his family. I am glad to have recently spent some time studying Spain's history.
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  #526  
Old 08-18-2020, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I remember the esteem King Juan Carlos was once held in ,back in 1986 after his State Visit to the Irish Republic had concluded the then President of Ireland,Dr Patrick Hillery invited the Spanish king and queen to visit him at his holiday home aptly named Spanish Point and spend the weekend as his guests!

Now that does not happen too often,I think only Prince Rainier and Princess Grace were accorded that honour.

Back in 2014 the king was one year off celebrating his Ruby Jubilee which could have been a celebration of all his achievements but instead came his abdication.
Did he abidcate becuase of the looming scandals?
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  #527  
Old 08-18-2020, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Yes, JC has derailed. I definitely have compassion for Felipe and his family. I am glad to have recently spent some time studying Spain's history.



If support for the monarchy is still at 56 % (vs 33 % for the republic) with this JC situation going on, I would tend to think that Felipe and Leonor are still pretty safe. And, as it has been mentioned here many times, the Spanish constitution of 1978 makes it very difficult to abolish the monarchy legally.



I would say that Catalan separatism is still a bigger threat than JC. It won't bring down the monarchy either, but can degrade its kingdom.


PS: A bigger threat of course only as long as Felipe is not directly involved in his father's scandals. Otherwise, things would get more complicated.
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  #528  
Old 08-18-2020, 11:53 AM
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Did he abidcate becuase of the looming scandals?
He was plagued by bad health, the backlash over his idiotic hunting expedition to Botswana and the imploding Noos scandal at that time.

Talk about poor advice and judgement for such a wise king.
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  #529  
Old 08-18-2020, 12:04 PM
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The polls show that the older generation, those who have experienced the Franco regime or post Franco or the hard times afterwards actually cut him some slack but it's only natural that this does not apply to the younger generation. At this point you see a greedy old man who exiles himself into a luxury life sponsored by his arab friends.
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  #530  
Old 08-18-2020, 09:31 PM
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More than 70 former ministers and senior officials of the PP and PSOE sign a manifesto in support of the reign of King Juan Carlos I.

The letter defends his presumption of innocence and recalls his legacy for the benefit of democracy.

75 former ministers and senior officials of the PP and PSOE, in addition to about fifteen ambassadors, have signed a manifesto in support of King Juan Carlos, defending his presumption of innocence and remembering his legacy in these more than 40 years of democracy.

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-08-18...CoBp8XSjWLkGho
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  #531  
Old 08-19-2020, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
More than 70 former ministers and senior officials of the PP and PSOE sign a manifesto in support of the reign of King Juan Carlos I.

The letter defends his presumption of innocence and recalls his legacy for the benefit of democracy.

75 former ministers and senior officials of the PP and PSOE, in addition to about fifteen ambassadors, have signed a manifesto in support of King Juan Carlos, defending his presumption of innocence and remembering his legacy in these more than 40 years of democracy.

https://elpais.com/espana/2020-08-18...CoBp8XSjWLkGho
Bravo!
I think the majority of the spanish people and especially the younger ones miss a overview and deeper understanding of the challenges this country would face if the monarchy was on edge.
no excuse for fiscal crime o.c. but there you can see a king is then only human and for the UAE it was peanuts, the spanish companies were happy to get the deal, there workers too, but now it's a mess.
by the way we do not know what's going on behind doors but his wife's behaviour not supporting him, tells a lot. Felipe needed to distance because of him being king but Sofia ? very disappointing.
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  #532  
Old 08-20-2020, 04:07 AM
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Just when you thought it was safe to head off to exile... it’s the return of the ex! And this time she’s getting interviewed by the beeb!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/stori...mpression=true
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  #533  
Old 08-20-2020, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Just when you thought it was safe to head off to exile... it’s the return of the ex! And this time she’s getting interviewed by the beeb!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/stori...mpression=true
Oh dear! This is all going to get a lot worse for the SRF.
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  #534  
Old 08-20-2020, 05:48 AM
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Oh dear! This is all going to get a lot worse for the SRF.
Goodness knows what else will come out!
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  #535  
Old 08-20-2020, 05:59 AM
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So I guess the state of the Kings' marriage was 'normal' for his children, meeting the girlfriend, she organized the honeymoon of Felipe and Letizia, not a problem obviously.
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  #536  
Old 08-20-2020, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
Just when you thought it was safe to head off to exile... it’s the return of the ex! And this time she’s getting interviewed by the beeb!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/stori...mpression=true



So Corinna doesn't deny receiving the money, but says she didn't know anything about any possible illegality thereof and claims she thought JC gave it to her out of love. But, at the same time, she claims JC had another mistress for 3 years while they were still together. And she tries to pose as a victim who was and is being harrassed by the Spanish intelligence services.


A plus for JC in the interview is that Corinna said she doesn't think JC gave her the gift as a way to launder money or as a tax evasion mechanism. She mantains it was his way of "taking care of her" and showing how important she and "her son" (?) were to him. And that JC had "a tantrum" when she refused to get back to him after 2014 and started demanding the money back.


It is also noteworthy that, according to her, after the elephant incident and the NOOS case, there were forces within the Spanish royal household actively pushing JC to abdicate.


Quite interesting really.


PS: I actually tend to believe the version that JC would feel the need to "take care" of his mistress(es). It is the way of Spanish men of his generation, no stereotypes intended.
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  #537  
Old 08-20-2020, 06:13 AM
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Corinna is desperate to defend herself. This interview is very sad and everything she said is very sad. She might as well have kept her mouth shut.
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  #538  
Old 08-20-2020, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by vivat View Post
Bravo!
I think the majority of the spanish people and especially the younger ones miss a overview and deeper understanding of the challenges this country would face if the monarchy was on edge.
no excuse for fiscal crime o.c. but there you can see a king is then only human and for the UAE it was peanuts, the spanish companies were happy to get the deal, there workers too, but now it's a mess.
by the way we do not know what's going on behind doors but his wife's behaviour not supporting him, tells a lot. Felipe needed to distance because of him being king but Sofia ? very disappointing.

Why would Sofia once again play doormat for a man that has never given her the respect and support she deserves? And in an issue that involves one of his gazillion mistresses of all things
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  #539  
Old 08-20-2020, 10:27 AM
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Corinna's testimony is contradictory, and it is prepared by her lawyers. She hints that her relationship had been broken since 2009, but she came to his aid when he was ill.
This does not correspond to reality, because curiously the account of the bank of King Juan Carlos empties between 2011 and 2012, and the hunt in Botswana is 2012. But also, she lived in a house near the Palacio de la Zarzuela, until 2013.
And the Spanish press in 2013 rumored that King Juan Carlos wanted to marry Corinna Larsen, she wanted to be Queen of Spain.

It is obvious that seems quite prepared by her lawyers.


Regarding the donation, if it were a gift, King Juan Carlos would never have claimed it.

She speaks of a family structure, 40 years ago, no, that is not possible, only a businesswoman like Corinna, could create that infrastructure. She was dedicated to investment funds in tax havens. She is who created the infrastructure. It was not 40 years ago, it was from 2004 when It began to create that infrastructure.
It is prepared, she lies, the dates do not correspond with the facts
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  #540  
Old 08-20-2020, 10:34 AM
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I’m just starting following this... is Queen Sofia in the UAE with Juan Carlos, or is she still in Spain (or somewhere else?)
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