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  #341  
Old 08-06-2020, 08:53 AM
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King Juan Carlos reputation will never recover from this and all that was accomplished during his almost 40 year reign will be long forgotten and he will have a tainted/tarnished image.
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  #342  
Old 08-06-2020, 09:04 AM
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I lived in Spain for 15 years, still have a home and my partner there. I lived in Catalonia which is increasingly estranged from Spain and has even gone so far as to declare unilateral independence after a referendum which was quashed by Madrid and the EU. Catalonia historically has resented the Bourbons and was on the side of Archduke Charles back in the war of the Spanish Succession. A number of Catalan cities have even gone as far to declare JC and Felipe as Persona non grata in council. It is not a stretch of the imagination that this region could leave Spain as I think the moment for a federal solution has been lost. JC was very much associated with having been nominated as Franco's heir, although the settlement and Constitution was approved in referendum. During the 1980's and 90's with Spain economically and socially in the ascendant, JC's response to the attempted coup d'etat and the agreement with the press to steer clear of any criticism of the monarchy bolstered the institution.

The Financial Crisis of 2008, massive unemployment, Letizia, Botsuana, Undangarin have all eroded the post-transition vision of the monarchy. In my experience the feeling amongst young - middle aged Spaniards is that the monarchy is either irrelevant or redundant.

There is little folk memory of love or respect for Spanish kings or queens (eg. UK Queen Victoria who presided over an era of British prestige, George VI and his bravery during WWII...). There hasn't been a Bourbon monarch with an entirely unblemished reign in the last 200 years. JC seemed to have secured this with his role as facilitator of democracy.

There is an interesting poll showing that significant numbers even amongst voters of right-wing parties that traditionally support the monarchy believe that JC's actions have damaged the institution. The number is much higher with Socialist voters etc.

This could be the last act of post-Civil War politics in Spain. Franco was exhumed from his mausoleum. For many on the left now may be the moment to bury the Bourbons.
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  #343  
Old 08-06-2020, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post

The Financial Crisis of 2008, massive unemployment, Letizia, Botsuana, Undangarin have all eroded the post-transition vision of the monarchy. In my experience the feeling amongst young - middle aged Spaniards is that the monarchy is either irrelevant or redundant.
What did Letizia do wrong?
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  #344  
Old 08-06-2020, 11:30 AM
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What did Letizia do wrong?
Letizia since joining the Spanish Royal Family has done few wrong things.
Letizia's biggest controversy was that confusion with Queen Sofia at Easter Mass 2018, but this did no harm to the monarchy.
The great controversies of the Spanish monarchy were caused by Infanta Cristina's husband and King Juan Carlos.
Letizia and Felipe, after all, are the biggest victims of everything that is happening.
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  #345  
Old 08-06-2020, 12:02 PM
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King Juan Carlos probably never thought he'd end up living in exile like his grandfather Alfonso XIII.
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  #346  
Old 08-06-2020, 12:20 PM
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The journalist, monarchist and friend of the King, Alfonso Ussia, has told on the radio that King Juan Carlos has written him a message, in that message he says: "Thank you very much. This is a parenthesis, not a vacation. Hugs to all "
In conclusion, this is not an exile, he is going to return to Spain.
King Juan Carlos does not want to harm his son, and while this situation is not cleared up, he will be far away to avoid harming him. But he will come back.
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  #347  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:58 PM
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What did Letizia do wrong?
she didn't do anything wrong, but she did not make the monarchy any more popular either. From the beginning, people did not really warm to her, and she was perceived as cold or arrogant. The royal house threw her under the bus by not allowing her an agenda and stood watching while she was torn apart by the gossip press, very convenient to deflect from other issues.



I too think that Juan Carlos did not 'exile' himself in the true sense of the meaning but he had to leave State property and it's easier to be invisible abroad in a private house than in Spain.

Leaving does not mean that the talk about him will stop, rather the opposite.

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There is something I do not understand in this whole Juan Carlos kickback/bribery/corruption money. Perhaps someone could explain.

It is established fact that KJC received $100 million from the late king of Saudi Arabia some years ago. (well documented press articles referred to the Ministry of finance in Saudi admitting to the transfer *gift*) It is widely rumoured that this has to do with Spanish consortium obtaining a big contract to do a train link in Saudi Arabia.
In cases like that it is the company who seeks the contract who pays the kickback. So logic would tell us that the Spanish consortium who is after the big contract would “give” a bribe/kick back/$favour -whatever you call it- to the decision maker in Saudi Arabia in exchange for them making the decision in favour of said company.. Not the other way around. I could also imagine the Spanish consortium contractor paying a gratification to KJC so that he could use his contacts, intercede in their favour with his friends the decision makers in Saudi Arabia. But why would the decision maker -Saudi Arabia-who awards the contract give a kickback in this case?
Everything in this case defies logic. Then turn around and transfer a huge chunk of the money to your mistress. Oh boy.... There is a lot we don’t know about this case.

Yes, logic dictates that either the Arabs get the money for awarding the contract or the Spanish companies pay Juan Carlos for clearing the path with the Arabs.
One of the theories is that because it was impossible for the Spanish companies to pay bribe money to the King directly, they agreed that the Arabs would deduct the percentage for the old King from the amount they owe the Spanish companies and give it directly to him.


OK, I don't have any explanation for giving the money to a woman like Corinna and name Felipe as beneficiary. Other than stupidity I mean.
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  #348  
Old 08-06-2020, 03:54 PM
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What did Letizia do wrong?
Being divorced, republican (according to her aunt?), not religious and of a non-noble background was not appreciated at all by the supporters of the monarchy. In addition, she is perceived as cold and controlling and the one who divided the family by driving a wedge between Felipe and his siblings and also his friends.

However, any further discussion on Letizia probably should be moved to a different thread.
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  #349  
Old 08-06-2020, 04:22 PM
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One of the theories is that because it was impossible for the Spanish companies to pay bribe money to the King directly, they agreed that the Arabs would deduct the percentage for the old King from the amount they owe the Spanish companies and give it directly to him.
The other theory was that the payment was made by Abdullah to JC as reward for getting the Spanish consortium to offer a discount on their bid so it came in substantially cheaper than the French and German bids.

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OK, I don't have any explanation for giving the money to a woman like Corinna and name Felipe as beneficiary. Other than stupidity I mean.
As I said in an earlier post JC gave Corinna On impulse (which is why the paperwork was not in order) the money to punish F and his sisters for siding with Sofia - equine to to leaving them out of the will.
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  #350  
Old 08-06-2020, 04:44 PM
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However, any further discussion on Letizia probably should be moved to a different thread.
Yes and on that note lets keep this thread on topic ,there are other threads see below to discuss,Letizia and the Press,her ever delightful aunt and Relationships in the RF.

Queen Letizia and the Press


https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ess-16231.html




Relationships between Members of the Spanish Royal Family


https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ily-13487.html

Queen Letizia's Family

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...3-a-35083.html
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  #351  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:59 PM
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The Spanish monarchy is guaranteed, currently, because the Constitution has an aggravated process, if a referendum is held, the Spanish people would vote in favor of the monarchy, because today in Spain the reform of the constitution is identified with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, and With ideologies of the left and anarchists. These political formations, in direct vote they do not even represent 20% .. These parties have a political weight in parliament due to the system of distribution of seats, the D'Hondt system. However, in a referendum the direct voting system is applied, not the D´Hondt. If the constitutional would be reformed and it would not be represented with these political formations, the monarchy could be in danger, but it is not case.
We Spaniards think that if the constitution would be reformed , it would be to give the pro-prerogatives and privileges to the independence movement, that's why we would not vote in favor of Republic
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  #352  
Old 08-07-2020, 12:46 AM
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wow, it's surprising Sofia did not accompany her husband, due to being religious and conservative though all the rumours during the last decades say differently of course.
i think it' s sad for a family and couple to sacrifice a member for the good of the business.,
despite what happended and I guess all of them liked the luxury the income of JC over the years gave them.
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  #353  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:05 AM
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The Spanish monarchy is guaranteed, currently, because the Constitution has an aggravated process, if a referendum is held, the Spanish people would vote in favor of the monarchy, because today in Spain the reform of the constitution is identified with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, and With ideologies of the left and anarchists. These political formations, in direct vote they do not even represent 20% .. These parties have a political weight in parliament due to the system of distribution of seats, the D'Hondt system. However, in a referendum the direct voting system is applied, not the D´Hondt. If the constitutional would be reformed and it would not be represented with these political formations, the monarchy could be in danger, but it is not case.
We Spaniards think that if the constitution would be reformed , it would be to give the pro-prerogatives and privileges to the independence movement, that's why we would not vote in favor of Republic
I agree that the system of direct voting might complicate an overall majority for a Republic however, if one were to be called the high percentage of returns favouring a change to the current system would be one that would be leveraged to continue to erode the position of Felipe as Head of State. I have seen few countries where political affiliations are so visible as Spain. I see more flags of the Spanish republic hanging on balconies in Madrid that I see the national flag, ditto for the separatist flags in Catalonia and the Basque Country. Sadly I meet and speak to few middle class or working class people under the age of 50 that wholeheartedly support Constitutional monarchy as their system of government.
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  #354  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Lipe View Post
The Spanish monarchy is guaranteed, currently, because the Constitution has an aggravated process, if a referendum is held, the Spanish people would vote in favor of the monarchy, because today in Spain the reform of the constitution is identified with the Catalan and Basque independence movement, and With ideologies of the left and anarchists. These political formations, in direct vote they do not even represent 20% .. These parties have a political weight in parliament due to the system of distribution of seats, the D'Hondt system. However, in a referendum the direct voting system is applied, not the D´Hondt. If the constitutional would be reformed and it would not be represented with these political formations, the monarchy could be in danger, but it is not case.
We Spaniards think that if the constitution would be reformed , it would be to give the pro-prerogatives and privileges to the independence movement, that's why we would not vote in favor of Republic
Thank you so much Lipe for further detail into the protections currently in place under the constitution protecting the Monarchy. So if Juan Carlos were to be investigated and further action were required it wouldn't necessarily jeopardize the Monarchy as I had originally thought. Current opposition in its entirety is less than 20%. I am so glad to hear this. Again, thank you.
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  #355  
Old 08-07-2020, 01:37 AM
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King Juan Carlos probably never thought he'd end up living in exile like his grandfather Alfonso XIII.
He was born in exile. He was 10 before he ever step foot in Spain.

But yes he likely never thought he would face being exiled again from Spain. Its different being born in exile, to being exiled yourself.

His wife and brother in law can commiserate with him. They were exiled as children from Greece. And Constantine of course as ex-king for decades. Constantine got to return to Greece eventually, even if a private citizen, but it took him nearly 40 years to return.

I doubt JC will be as lucky. I think he will have to make peace with living out the remainder of his life in whatever spot he has chosen to make his home now. Unless he gets called back to face criminal charges for this.
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  #356  
Old 08-07-2020, 02:47 AM
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ABC reporting that Juan Carlos is in Abu Dhabi

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-s...-idUSKCN2530PB

Reports that he turned down offer to hide out in Saudi Arabia

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...move-to-saudi/
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  #357  
Old 08-07-2020, 03:52 AM
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Honestly, I don't believe he was in Spain very often at least after he officially retired. We often saw him in the middle east anyway, for Formula One etc.
So I doubt he was a lot in Spain in person but of course his official residence was Zarzuela and they had to change that, the old King living in public property.
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  #358  
Old 08-07-2020, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Honestly, I don't believe he was in Spain very often at least after he officially retired. We often saw him in the middle east anyway, for Formula One etc.
So I doubt he was a lot in Spain in person but of course his official residence was Zarzuela and they had to change that, the old King living in public property.
But still, JC fleeing to the gulf is less ‘European monarch’
and more ‘third world kleptocrat’ territory. It’s not a cute look, is all I’m sayin’.
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  #359  
Old 08-07-2020, 04:15 AM
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I stated in an earlier post that spending this "parenthesis" in a gulf state would be a highly likely option for JC.

As the guest of a fabulously wealthy gulf royal family JC would be treated as an honoured guest and former head of state, have his expenses met allowing him to live in the style he is accustomed to, be protected far from the eyes of prying press or paparazzi, and potentially be afforded diplomatic status to circumvent any calls for extradition that may arise.

I do believe he will return to Spain but this will be at the end, if and when his health breaks and he is allowed home to end his days.

At the moment I believe the hope is "out of sight, out of mind". The saga is already falling off the front pages of the Spanish press.
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  #360  
Old 08-07-2020, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Honestly, I don't believe he was in Spain very often at least after he officially retired. We often saw him in the middle east anyway, for Formula One etc.
So I doubt he was a lot in Spain in person but of course his official residence was Zarzuela and they had to change that, the old King living in public property.
With the fortune king Juan Carlos is reported to have he could have bought himself a nice secluded property and lived there.
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