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  #321  
Old 08-05-2020, 11:53 AM
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Ultimately a fascinating and tragic tale. JC obviously has never been able to forget the relative poverty and insecurity of having been born as an exile and feathered his nest accordingly for any future uncertainty. Accepting "gifts" of cash was not something unknown to his forebears in their exiles - Alfonso XIII, Ena all accepted gifts that enabled them to live in a style they were accustomed to but it seems JC with the lack of scrutiny during his early and mid reign took this to extremes. I think there has been no love lost between JC and Queen Letizia who has perhaps manoeuvred to remove him from the scene for some time. The hauteur of Queen Sofia comes from her background - daughter, sister, wife and mother of Kings, she is a royal in the traditional mould of the Gotha and similar in her approach to duty to Queen Elizabeth II. The past 10 years must have been hell for her. I wouldn't be surprised if JC turned up in a Gulf state...
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  #322  
Old 08-05-2020, 02:35 PM
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Congratulations on your first - and most interesting - post, Darius1
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  #323  
Old 08-05-2020, 07:24 PM
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Well done Darius1 and welcome here !
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  #324  
Old 08-05-2020, 07:30 PM
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Would this possibly be going any better if he'd taped a statement before he left?

At least it's slightly classier than the "lol, bye, JC out" he seems to have chosen.

....oh, right. Lawyers advise you not to talk, don't they. It still feels like he could have expressed some generic regret and talked about the good times.
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  #325  
Old 08-05-2020, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Would this possibly be going any better if he'd taped a statement before he left?

At least it's slightly classier than the "lol, bye, JC out" he seems to have chosen.

....oh, right. Lawyers advise you not to talk, don't they. It still feels like he could have expressed some generic regret and talked about the good times.
His only regret is getting caught with his hands in the cookie jar - and with his trousers down as well no less.
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  #326  
Old 08-05-2020, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post
His only regret is getting caught with his hands in the cookie jar - and with his trousers down as well no less.
That may be so, and yet you would think that decades of public life and media training (as Head of State, no less) would at least give you the appearance of being sober and contrite, which might go over better with the rest of the media and the public.

It's not about whether he's actually sorry; it's about damage control.

You don't even think he's sorry he produced this entire mess for Felipe and the present Spanish monarchy to shovel through?
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  #327  
Old 08-05-2020, 08:28 PM
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It seems JC is on the "lam" but where? Royal Musings: Juan Carlos reported to be in the Dominican republic

According to royal expert Marlene Eilers Koenig on her recent blog Royal Musings Spanish newspaper ABC and others are reporting: "This past weekend, Juan Carlos, 82, traveled to Sanxeno in Pontevedra. He was driven to the Portuguese town of Porto, where he caught a flight to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic." So reports of JC being in Portugal and Dominican Republic could both be true. Why not let the old guy spend his last days exiled alone, away from family and hopefully staying out of further trouble. If Spain eventually wants to prosecute they will. Having just recently taken a closer look at the history of Spain, not a very smooth transition into democracy. Royals in exile, several governments, the long brutal dictatorship of Franco leading to the now constitutional monarchy. Despite Juan Carlos losing his compass big time here at the end it seems Felipe has support and is generally well liked, perhaps moving forward might be best for Spain.
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  #328  
Old 08-05-2020, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
Ultimately a fascinating and tragic tale. JC obviously has never been able to forget the relative poverty and insecurity of having been born as an exile and feathered his nest accordingly for any future uncertainty. Accepting "gifts" of cash was not something unknown to his forebears in their exiles - Alfonso XIII, Ena all accepted gifts that enabled them to live in a style they were accustomed to but it seems JC with the lack of scrutiny during his early and mid reign took this to extremes. I think there has been no love lost between JC and Queen Letizia who has perhaps manoeuvred to remove him from the scene for some time. The hauteur of Queen Sofia comes from her background - daughter, sister, wife and mother of Kings, she is a royal in the traditional mould of the Gotha and similar in her approach to duty to Queen Elizabeth II. The past 10 years must have been hell for her. I wouldn't be surprised if JC turned up in a Gulf state...
Welcome and great first post.

Given that he took a bribe from Saudi Arabia, it wouldn’t really be a wise move to relocate to UAE or anywhere else in the ME. It could be considered an admission of guilt
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  #329  
Old 08-05-2020, 10:07 PM
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Blanca de Borbón, daughter of Leandro de Borbón, shows her support for King Juan Carlos in this exclusive interview for LA RAZÓN.

https://www.larazon.es/gente/2020080...3rhzh35pq.html
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  #330  
Old 08-06-2020, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
It seems JC is on the "lam" but where? Royal Musings: Juan Carlos reported to be in the Dominican republic

According to royal expert Marlene Eilers Koenig on her recent blog Royal Musings Spanish newspaper ABC and others are reporting: "This past weekend, Juan Carlos, 82, traveled to Sanxeno in Pontevedra. He was driven to the Portuguese town of Porto, where he caught a flight to Santo Domingo in the Dominican Republic." So reports of JC being in Portugal and Dominican Republic could both be true. Why not let the old guy spend his last days exiled alone, away from family and hopefully staying out of further trouble. If Spain eventually wants to prosecute they will. Having just recently taken a closer look at the history of Spain, not a very smooth transition into democracy. Royals in exile, several governments, the long brutal dictatorship of Franco leading to the now constitutional monarchy. Despite Juan Carlos losing his compass big time here at the end it seems Felipe has support and is generally well liked, perhaps moving forward might be best for Spain.
I think at this stage that it is wishful thinking that this might blow over and JC be left alone in Portugal to enjoy his dotage. There is growing momentum in Spain pushing for a referendum on the monarchy, driven by Podemos Unidos party, the far-left coalition partner in Spain's government, with an agenda for radical change.

When the Prime Minister has to come out publicly to say he supports the monarchy I think this is a sign of the uncertainty of things to come. At the start of Felipe's reign it seemed that pressing criminal charges against his sister and brother-in-law was the price to pay to demonstrate transparency and garner support for the institution, I think the next step will be some sort of condemnation, if not trial of JC, all in all eroding any prestige left.

I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to see a referendum being called, and lost. The median age of the population is early 40's. JC himself has said that he is likely only to be known amongst those under 40 for Corrina, Elephants and a suitcase of cash. If the population were to weigh up what the monarchy had done for them, 23 F Coup d' Etat is probably the only glowing moment in the national consciousness. There is very little else to affectionately bind the monarchy to the people.

Those wishing to eliminate the monarchy have smelled blood. They won't stop now.
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  #331  
Old 08-06-2020, 02:58 AM
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It's very difficult to predict how things are going to play out for Juan Carlos. If reports of PM Sanchez press conference yesterday was any indication: PM Pedro Sánchez took advantage of a planned press conference to defend the Spanish monarchy and the constitutional regime of 1978, while refusing to talk about the role of his executive in the flight to exile of the corruption-mired king emeritus, announced yesterday in a statement by the royal house. The Spanish PM argued that it is a confidential matter and even refused to reveal the country which the former king is now in, claiming he simply didn't know." “I have no information on where he is,” he affirmed. His remarks on the matter in his speech itself stressed that the country's political system was working rather than being in an unprecedented crisis. The elements of a "vigorous democracy" - media, prosecutors, courts - were all playing their parts as they should; the constitutional pact of 1978 - under which the king is Spain's head of state - is "as fully in force as ever". And the Spanish government had an "absolute respect" for the decisions taken by the royal house "to distance itself from certain supposed deplorable conduct by one of its members".
https://www.elnacional.cat/en/politi...28012_102.html
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  #332  
Old 08-06-2020, 03:03 AM
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Actually trying JC for his crimes may actually help.

The problem with monarchies in many eyes are they are old fashioned and they are stuck in the past. Royals have all this money and power that they never earned and so on. And they are often criticized for being 'above the law'. Look at the UK and any time (and I am not even speaking Andrew) a royal has been seen breaking some law even if minor. And the controversy of how it was handled and if they got off easy. Like Philip's accident. Anne's dog attacking a person. Now we have Andrew.

Actually allowing for JC's daughter and her husband to stand trial, and that to be public was different. And making a show of JC not being above the law, to him answering to the same laws as his people will as well.

Royals have prestige. That's great. But if they look like they are above the law of common man, they look like dictators and autocrats (even if they don't have any real power). Its the perception they are giving to the public. And in the long run it is even more reason to push to abolish them.


I think there is actually some concern JC WONT go to court over this. And instead of being a relief, the royals and their advisors are worried. They want some conclusion to this spectacle which will leave the people feeling like some justice was served. And that wont happen if he isn't tried. So they send him into 'exile' in hopes of saying 'these are the consequences'. And emphasize the investigation continues, and there may be more.
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  #333  
Old 08-06-2020, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
Pedro Sánchez took advantage of a planned press conference to defend the Spanish monarchy and the constitutional regime of 1978, while refusing to talk about the role of his executive in the flight to exile of the corruption-mired king emeritus, announced yesterday in a statement by the royal house.
That could mean one of two things:

1) JCs flight from Spain is part of a deal being cut between the government and the royal house to avoid the embarrassment of a trial And all the awkward questions about the governments role in this whole mess.

2) the government in fact were in the dark and only found out after the fact and the royal household is for all intents and purposes beyond their control and influence

Either way it doesn’t look good.

Quote:
The Spanish PM argued that it is a confidential matter and even refused to reveal the country which the former king is now in, claiming he simply didn't know." “I have no information on where he is,” he affirmed. His remarks on the matter in his speech itself stressed that the country's political system was working rather than being in an unprecedented crisis.
The departure of a former head of state who is being investigated over corruption allegations is not a private matter. That’s the wrong answer, Pedro. Since JC has not been arrested they can’t revoke his passport or keep him under house arrest, but allowing him to practically saunter out is either conspiracy or incompetence.

Quote:
The elements of a "vigorous democracy" - media, prosecutors, courts - were all playing their parts as they should; the constitutional pact of 1978 - under which the king is Spain's head of state - is "as fully in force as ever". And the Spanish government had an "absolute respect" for the decisions taken by the royal house "to distance itself from certain supposed deplorable conduct by one of its members".
These elements all conspicuously failed to perform their role regarding JCs behaviour until it got too egregious to ignore and was being investigated outside Spain. It’s not a question of the royal family dealing with a personal matter. It’s a serous question of government transparency and competence.
It’s a systemic problem not simply one of individual wrongdoing.
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  #334  
Old 08-06-2020, 05:36 AM
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From what I have been able to glean Government and Palace worked in collaboration on JC's exit. I doubt it is in the interest of Pedro Sanchez's Party that there be a court case to investigate this. JC may appear via video link to answer some questions but a full judicial investigation would undoubtedly uncover a long trail of financial impropriety going back to before the transition. I cannot imagine that JC operated without the knowledge of those in power during his reign. Any investigation is going to detonate the myth that has grown up around the post-Franco era, leaving only separatists and UP untainted. Not good for JC, not good for Felipe and not good for centrist democracy in an already fragmenting Spain.
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  #335  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Actually trying JC for his crimes may actually help.

The problem with monarchies in many eyes are they are old fashioned and they are stuck in the past. Royals have all this money and power that they never earned and so on. And they are often criticized for being 'above the law'. Look at the UK and any time (and I am not even speaking Andrew) a royal has been seen breaking some law even if minor. And the controversy of how it was handled and if they got off easy. Like Philip's accident. Anne's dog attacking a person. Now we have Andrew.

Actually allowing for JC's daughter and her husband to stand trial, and that to be public was different. And making a show of JC not being above the law, to him answering to the same laws as his people will as well.

Royals have prestige. That's great. But if they look like they are above the law of common man, they look like dictators and autocrats (even if they don't have any real power). Its the perception they are giving to the public. And in the long run it is even more reason to push to abolish them.


I think there is actually some concern JC WONT go to court over this. And instead of being a relief, the royals and their advisors are worried. They want some conclusion to this spectacle which will leave the people feeling like some justice was served. And that wont happen if he isn't tried. So they send him into 'exile' in hopes of saying 'these are the consequences'. And emphasize the investigation continues, and there may be more.
JC may now have to face the consequences of his many years of perceived corruption in taking money and other gifts, etc. The current Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is fairly new, voted in in 2018 due to PM Mariano Rajoy's no vote of confidence. Again this January another vote was taken resulting in a coalition government maintaining Sanchez as PM but giving the leftist group Podemos Unidos further power. My concern is that the investigations and a trial against Juan Carlos will do the opposite and destabilize the current government giving the anti Monarchists further power leaving Spain without a Monarchy. It could go either way, I guess we will find out in due time.

It would be great if those that live in Spain could weigh in.
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  #336  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
From what I have been able to glean Government and Palace worked in collaboration on JC's exit. I doubt it is in the interest of Pedro Sanchez's Party that there be a court case to investigate this. JC may appear via video link to answer some questions but a full judicial investigation would undoubtedly uncover a long trail of financial impropriety going back to before the transition. I cannot imagine that JC operated without the knowledge of those in power during his reign. Any investigation is going to detonate the myth that has grown up around the post-Franco era, leaving only separatists and UP untainted. Not good for JC, not good for Felipe and not good for centrist democracy in an already fragmenting Spain.
Sorry, I didn't see your post. This is my thinking as well.
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  #337  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Lady Daly View Post
JC may now have to face the consequences of his many years of perceived corruption in taking money and other gifts, etc. The current Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez is fairly new, voted in in 2018 due to PM Mariano Rajoy's no vote of confidence. Again this January another vote was taken resulting in a coalition government maintaining Sanchez as PM but giving the leftist group Podemos Unidos further power. My concern is that the investigations and a trial against Juan Carlos will do the opposite and destabilize the current government giving the anti Monarchists further power leaving Spain without a Monarchy. It could go either way, I guess we will find out in due time.
In the broader historical scheme of things this is in some respects unfinished business from the post 1975 era. A lot - too much - was swept under the carpet during the transition and there has never really been any catharsis About the wrongdoing of the Franco regime. No former regime personnel were ever held accountable for their actions and this helped perpetuate a culture of impunity and unaccountability well into the current day. A culture which JC is increasingly seen to embody in the eyes of a lot of younger people.

Since Franco and his henchmen are dead, and JC is the only major figure of the period still alive, and will always be associated with him, putting JC on trial may well end up being the whole Franco era ruling elite, the transition and 1978 pact on trial in practice, which might wind up doing more harm than good.
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  #338  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
I think at this stage that it is wishful thinking that this might blow over and JC be left alone in Portugal to enjoy his dotage. There is growing momentum in Spain pushing for a referendum on the monarchy, driven by Podemos Unidos party, the far-left coalition partner in Spain's government, with an agenda for radical change.

When the Prime Minister has to come out publicly to say he supports the monarchy I think this is a sign of the uncertainty of things to come. At the start of Felipe's reign it seemed that pressing criminal charges against his sister and brother-in-law was the price to pay to demonstrate transparency and garner support for the institution, I think the next step will be some sort of condemnation, if not trial of JC, all in all eroding any prestige left.

I don't think it is a stretch of the imagination to see a referendum being called, and lost. The median age of the population is early 40's. JC himself has said that he is likely only to be known amongst those under 40 for Corrina, Elephants and a suitcase of cash. If the population were to weigh up what the monarchy had done for them, 23 F Coup d' Etat is probably the only glowing moment in the national consciousness. There is very little else to affectionately bind the monarchy to the people.

Those wishing to eliminate the monarchy have smelled blood. They won't stop now.

A referendum can be called only if, before that, a constitutional amendment to end the monarchy is passed twice by at least 2/3 of the members of each of the two houses of Parliament, with a general election taking place between the two votes. It is not going to happen as long as the two largest parties in Parliament (PSOE and PP) continue to support the monarchy.



Recent polls also show a mixed picture in terms of popular support. Although some polls have support for the republic slightly above (or close to) 50 % nationally, the regional breakdowns show that only Galicia, Catalonia, the Basque Country, Asturias and the Balearic Islands have a republican majority. Those are regions which have a sense of being culturally distinct from the rest of Spain and where, I believe, the monarchy is identified with the unitary Spanish state in the minds of most people, hence the opposition thereto.


In the long run, I think the Spanish monarchy would benefit then if Spain transitioned to a federal system like in Belgium, which in my opinion is more likely to happen in the next decade than the abolition of the monarchy.



I agree, however, that the Spanish monarchy, albeit not in imminent danger, is currently the most fragile among the extant European monarchies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WreathOfLaurels View Post

Since Franco and his henchmen are dead, and JC is the only major figure of the period still alive, and will always be associated with him, putting JC on trial may well end up being the whole Franco era ruling elite, the transition and 1978 pact on trial in practice, which might wind up doing more harm than good.

It is true that republicans and the far-leftists identify JC and the monarchy with Franco, but that claim is actually difficult to reconcile nowadays with the fact that the Socialist Party (PSOE) has been in government longer than any other Spanish party since 1978.
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  #339  
Old 08-06-2020, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is true that republicans and the far-leftists identify JC and the monarchy with Franco, but that claim is actually difficult to reconcile nowadays with the fact that the Socialist Party (PSOE) has been in government longer than any other Spanish party since 1978.
That may well be true but Podemos could well get the upper hand and JC And the monarchy would be the easiest And quickest scalp for them to take As part of consolidating their power. Don’t rule it out.
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  #340  
Old 08-06-2020, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
The Supreme Court refuses to adopt precautionary measures against King Juan Carlos because it has not been investigated.

The Vacations Room of the Supreme Court has rejected the adoption of precautionary measures requested by the entity Cultural Omnium against King Juan Carlos in a letter demanding its location and urgent summons.

In an order issued this Wednesday, the Chamber recalls that the Spanish procedural system "does not contemplate the adoption of precautionary measures with respect to those who do not have the status of being investigated", as is the case of King Juan Carlos.

https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-supre...4_noticia.html
The informative links are much appreciated.

Do you or anyone have a link to public surveys evaluating reactions to the king emeritus's "exile"? I have seen a reference to a survey showing 68% disapproval of the decision but could not find it.
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