Joséphine-Charlotte and Maria Teresa's Relationship

[teia]

I reply to a thread by Drimal from 01/12/2005 any several answers to this thread
First of all, princess JC did not lose both her parents at the age of seven but only her mother Astrid from Sweden, her father survived the car incident with minor injuries
Nevertheless, in those days she might of had an education provided by nanny's rather then her father and/or other family members
The loss of a mother and an aducation with a poor amount of family-tenderness might be a very traumatic experience on itself
It wouldn't stop there either, after WWII her father was forced by the Belgian government to abdicate in favour of his eldest son Baudewijn over so calded 'scandals' involving the King with Nazi Germany etc etc (accusations never really proved)
This, today to us might seem, things out of the past, which they are
Nevertheless, for JC in those days, this might very well of have been yet another traumatic experience
In my opinion, these kind of experiences shapes one in life. Shapes one in a certain kind of way, not always in the nicest
For me JC was a very outspoken lady, it is enough to watch a few TV interviews with her... she was certainly not a lady who was going to mirror herself and others some fairytale stories
As I said, she was without any doubt outspoken and many people do not appreaciate this properly

 

[teia]

I was born in Belgium and lived there for about 30 years, though by participating this thread I also had to refresh my memory
I realise that with my comments I come to defend JC, undeliberately
I wish to stay neutral but there is always a fine line
Still, a part from my first post, in 1935 JC lost her mother in a car accident in Kussnacht, Switzerland
Later JC also had to deal, as a youngster with WWII
In 1941, as a war prisoner the King married Liliane Baels, if I remember she was a kind of nanny for JC, Baudouin and Albert
During the war the Belgian RF decided to stay in the country (and not to escape) they therefore also had to face the reality when after 2 days of war Belgium was invaded by the Germans
From June '44 to March '45 the whole family was kept as war prisoners first in Germany later in Austria
Later on, LeopoldIII had 3 other children with princess Liliane (2 daughters and 1 son)
So, the more I think about it, I do not believe that JC and both her brothers had an easy start in life
As I wrote in my first post on the subject, we forget bits of the past, but should take in consideration that life in those days was certainly complicated and certainly made some people stronger, therefore maybe more distant... not always so down-to-earth like
I remember that for many many years rumours went on that the mixed RF was not all that happy (including LIII) and we could therefore assume that the life of JC was at least complicated
I think we should have some respect and patience for her in that sense

 

[Hilda Thomas]

Duchess Josephine-Charlotte and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa-As Mothers

It is a natural thing for a mother whether Royal,Non-Royal, Race and Religion to have a say who her children should marry. In her thoughts she has carved out the character, family prestiege, wealth and selfish reasons. who her children should marry. A Hindu mother does not want her children to marry a Muslim even though they look alike, it is all about religion, A Jewish mother prefer her children to marry someone of the same Faith. A white mother does not want her son to marry a black woman and vice versa. Queen Victoria did not want her German grandson the future Kaiser of Germany to marry Princess Viktoria because she was of a lower Rank of Royalty. Moses mother did not him to marry his wife because she was milato. Samson's mother did not want him to marry his wife because she was of a differenet tribe. I did not want my daughter to marry her husband. A mother has her own reasons. Both Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte and Grand Duchess Maria Teresa are Noble Women. They did their job as Consort excellently. Life goes on. Mothers are not perfect. No one knows what Maria Teresa thought of her first daughter-in-law when she became pregnant out of wedlock.

 

[4Pam]

We'll never really have the exact info on MT & JC's relationship. Hopefully, MT's relationships with her daughters in law will be better than what she had with JC. She seems to be the type of woman who is accepting and want nothing but the best for her family.

 

[Hilda Thomas]

I tend to beleive that Grand Duchess Josephine was oppose to Marie-Teresa at the begining but after her marriage to Henri, she had seen Maria-T. in a different perspective. As a mother she wanted the best for her son and fortunately Henry chose the best which is Maria Terisa. She was scandal free intellegent, has fine values and inner strength and I daresay that she is endowed with qualities which Henry lacked and lean on MT for her fine judgement. MT did an excellent job raising their children. The people of Luxemberg like and respect her she has been an asset to her adopted country. In the end Josephine-Charlotte won; her son Henry chose someone who loved and was devoted to him and his country.

"Happiness is an elusive thing; few humans seems to grasp it". Experience of the last World War and losing her mother when she was so young had taught Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte a lesson of the "hard knocks of life" . I do not beleive that she would have rejected- Marie Teresa and Henry wedded Bless until she died. Josephine-C had realized that it was a happy union if her son was happy she would be happy for him.

Someone else had spread those ugly rumours.

 

[Hilda Thomas]

Sometime in the early years of 2000+, I had seen pictures of Maria-Teresa in shorts with a tennis racket. She had blownup, her son Guillaume was overweight. I can see Josephine-C finding fault of their weight and if she was alive she would have also found fault of her grand daughter's Alexandra's weight also.

Josephine, Prince Jean and all of her children did not have a weight problem.

 

[Rayarena]

There are so many rumors going around. Originally, when Maria Teresa was engaged to Henri, it was said that it took her and Henri four years to convince then Grand Duke Jean to accept the marriage--the Grand Duke wanted a royal bride for his son. It was only after Henri announced that he would relinquish his rights to the throne rather than give up M-T that his father reluctantly agreed to the marriage. At the time, it was said that Josephine Charlotte became M-T's ally and helped convince her husband, Jean, to allow the marriage. So, its odd that years later, we hear that J-C never liked or approved of M-T and that she was trying to create a wedge in her son's marriage. The thing is that if you look at the wedding pictures, J-C looks genuinely happy. The person who looks absolutely despondent is Henri's grandmother, the late Grand Duchess Charlotte. In fact, I heard that she asked not to be photographed, because she was so upset with this marriage. It could be that as the years went by, M-T and J-C simply grew apart. These things happen. Sometimes people start rubbing each other the wrong way. I did hear that initially, M-T and J-C did have some minor problems because J-C did not like the way that M-T was so down-to-earth with the subjects. If you remember, there is a picture of M-T kneeling down and kissing a child who gives her of bouquet a flowers as she is exiting the church during her wedding. It was this type of behavior that I believe J-C objected to--this unregal familiarity with the masses. I guess that we'll never know the full story. By the way, if you look at M-T in earlier pictures, she is thin. It is shortly after Sebastien's birth that she started gaining considerable weight. One rumor that I have heard is that it is at this time that Henri developed a roving eye and that he started having an affair with some woman in Luxembourg's government. According to the rumor, this is why M-T started gaining weight. Now the question is, is this a fact, or is this the rumor that J-C allegedly began?

 

[Marengo]

It was Maria Teresa herself who claimed that the rumours of an affair between GD Henri and Lydia Polfert were started by her mother-in-law. Of course the late Grand Duchess never defended herself in public against these alligations.

 

[MidnightSonatta]

Sometime in the early years of 2000+, I had seen pictures of Maria-Teresa in shorts with a tennis racket. She had blownup, her son Guillaume was overweight. I can see Josephine-C finding fault of their weight and if she was alive she would have also found fault of her grand daughter's Alexandra's weight also.

Josephine, Prince Jean and all of her children did not have a weight problem.

That is arguably one of the most absurd thing I have read here. The idea JC is so shallow and spiteful that she would chide people who have problem with their weight especially to people within her own family. There were frictions between MT and JC; I doubt weight problems were it. As for Alexandra and Guillaume's weight problems, I doubt she'll make a big fuss as do some people on royal boards since from all accounts I have read she loved and was very devoted to her grandchildren.

 

[Mariel]

Weight gain after a last child, like Sebastien, sometimes occurs if the mother is sterilized at the time of the birth (i.e. given a hysterectomy; this would be more likely if the ovaries also were removed due to them being compromised, i.e. cystic). Sometimes Catholic women are given hysterectomies for real physical imperfections (i.e. cystic ovaries, etc.) with the blessing of the Church. In the US army at one time it was called "Catholic birth control." This is just speculation.
But my step daughter got very fat after the birth of her fourth and last child as she neared the age of forty. And she didn't have a hysterectomy (as far as I know--maybe she did and did not tell us. She was not Catholic, but she dreaded deeply the taking of birth control pills because they would have an effect on her health).

Oh well, just speculation. Some people have genes which make them heavier. But skinny genes are not always the healthiest--there are plenty of imperfections to go around.

There are some nice skinny genes in the Luxembourg line--J-C always was nice and slender, and her daughter the Archduchess could wear her mother's suit at the recent wedding--but that isn't everything!
When I could not eat because I was sick I swore I would never complain again if I gained weight--and I haven't!

 

[Moonmaiden23]

That is arguably one of the most absurd thing I have read here. The idea JC is so shallow and spiteful that she would chide people who have problem with their weight especially to people within her own family. There were frictions between MT and JC; I doubt weight problems were it. As for Alexandra and Guillaume's weight problems, I doubt she'll make a big fuss as do some people on royal boards since from all accounts I have read she loved and was very devoted to her grandchildren.

I agree. J-C was crazy about her grandchildren, and seemed particularly proud of Guillaume. I think if she was alive today she would be bursting with pride, especially considering the conduct of some of the other young Royals in comparison.

 

[Hilda Thomas]

Being overweight is no crime however if you love and care much for a relative or friend who is overweight you will be honest and let them know how they look and how you feel about it. I have never had a weight issue but some of the younger members of my family have. Weight is something if not worked on at an early stage will get worse. Women who have given birth several times it is natural for them to get the (spread). Princess Mary of Denmark who have given birth to twins and her sister-in-law Pr. Marie also Pr. Letiza of Spain have done very well to keep their weight down. Can you immagine when Princess Alexandra of Luxemberg give birth to her first child what she will look like?. Look at the picture of her in the gold dress at her brother's wedding (viewing her from the back her body looked like a matured woman) while her mother appeared youthful) Now I know what the Magazine Paris Match or another Mag. was referring to.

Overweight is beyond one's controll while others can work on it and be successful. Grand Duchess Charlotte would not be dirty and spiteful to discuss with her dear and beautiful grand children about their weight, she woulld have done the criticising in a loving way afterall she raised her own children and knew when to put the lock on the refrigerator door. She would have been appalled to hear Reportors of a Magazine having to do this.

 

[MidnightSonatta]

I think JC would be more appalled at the amount of criticism a young woman (or in this case her granddaughter) faced from random strangers simply because she isn't stick thin. So Alexandra isn't skinny like she had in the past, who gives a crap. She isn't a young teen anymore, but, a young woman whose body is changing as a results.

And people wonder why so many young women or women have serious eating and self-image problems. It is because people feels the need comments/criticized when someone has gained a little bit of weight or isn't as skinny as she used to be.

 

[cupito]

I agree with what you say, I just like to add a small caveat. Stephanie's pedigree is not "somewhat like Princess Diana's," Stephanie leaves Diana in the dust! Remember, Diana's family--while impressive---was ennobled in 1603, while Stephanie's dates back to the 13th century if I'm not mistaken. That is to say, she have four centuries of nobility over Diana!!!

I thought Diana was a descendant of Charles II and therefore from a royal pedigree going back at least to 1066

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Diana was indeed a descendant of Charles II...through one of his many, many mistresses. Ditto for Sarah Ferguson, btw. In other words not a legitimate line of descent. And though the Spencers had Royal connections, they did not enter the peerage until relatively late.

 

[maria-olivia]

Comparing Diana is this thread has nothing to do with.
Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte should have been delighted with the de Lannoy wedding.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

maria-olivia, something tells me J-C would have been over the moon with the wedding.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Comparing Diana is this thread has nothing to do with.
Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte should have been delighted with the de Lannoy wedding.

I agree. To illustrate how high the standing of the De Lannoy family was, already in mediaeval times, with the following members being Knights of the most prestigious Order of all, the Golden Fleece:
- Hugues de Lannoy (1384-1456), Lord of Santes
- Guilbert de Lannoy (1386-1462), Lord of Villerval and of Tronchiennes
- Baudouin de Lannoy (1388-1474), Lord of Molembaix
- Jean III de Lannoy (1410-1493), stadtholder of Holland and Zealand
- Baudouin II de Lannoy (1436-1501), Lord of Molembaix, of Solre and of Tourcoing
- Pierre de Lannoy (1445-1510), Lord of Fresnoy, Grand Chamberlain of Emperor Maximilian of Austria
- Charles de Lannoy (1482-1527), Lord of Senzeille, Prince of Sulmona, Count of Asti
- Philippe I de Lannoy (1487-1543), Lord of Molembaix and of Tourcoing, Anserœul and Solre

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Taking in mind that the Order was restricted to a limited number of knights, initially 24 but increased to 30 until 1516, already 8 De Lannoys having designated with this most prestigious Order, before 1500, it shows how respected the family De Lannoy already was, more than 500 years ago.

Another illustrative example: in 1551 Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange (the founder of the Netherlands) married with Anne d'Egmont, Countess of Buren, the sole heiress of her immensely rich father, Maximilien d'Egmont and her most noble mother Françoise de Lannoy. So William of Orange had a De Lannoy as his mother-in-law.

461 years after that another Nassau married a De Lannoy. Maria Olivia is right: Grand Duchess Joséphine-Charlotte, born a Princess of Belgium, would be most delighted with a De Lannoy, belonging to the most respected noble families in the Low Countries.

 

[Marengo]

I suppose (and hope) that apart from pedigree, which in the Lannoy's case is interesting indeed, there are other qualities in the future GDss that GDss JC may have found positive. If pedigree alone was a requirement she would have had easy relationships with some of her children(-in-law). However, it is known that she was difficult to all of them. Recently a poster at the BRMB said that since the early 90-ties JC was suffering from pains and ills as she underwent various surgeries, chemotherapy and radiation. This may have influenced her mood and behavior.

 

[Stefan]

. Recently a poster at the BRMB said that since the early 90-ties JC was suffering from pains and ills as she underwent various surgeries, chemotherapy and radiation.

And that she sometimes also had difficulties with Marie Astrid who according to the poster had to endure a lot during that time.

 

[maria-olivia]

What with Marie-Astrid ????

 

[Moonmaiden23]

Yes, what about problems with Marie-Astrid?

 

[Schatten]

Okay, this topic was new to me!

If you look at these pictures of JC and Henri, you might not think that they had a bad or cold relationship.

JEAN DE LUXEMBOURG PREPARES SON HENRI FOR THRONE - 0000339180-008 - Rights Managed - Stock Photo - Corbis
JEAN DE LUXEMBOURG PREPARES SON HENRI FOR THRONE - 0000339180-001 - Rights Managed - Stock Photo - Corbis
JEAN DE LUXEMBOURG PREPARES SON HENRI FOR THRONE - 0000339180-013 - Rights Managed - Stock Photo - Corbis

I would love to read a biography of the late grand duchess.

 

[Olyashka]

It's my first time reading this forum as I've seen a photo of GD Henri and GDss Maria Teresa on their wedding very recently and I find them soo suitable to each other .. and also I am jealous of their growing love for each other (somebody please give me someone who loves that loyally and truly like GD Henri...)

For me, I believe that JC and MT had that conflict with each other. I think that JC disliked MT because of... feeling some jealousy. She's jealous because she sees in Henri and MariaT how very happy it is to marry the "love of one's life" despite the odds between those 2 people.

That's because (from what I read), she's in love with someone when she was suddenly told to marry GD Jean. And that was a commoner. Yes, she and Jean had a loving relationship but seems like she was not able to recover from the pain she felt when she was told she could not marry the one she loves...only because that man was a commoner. I think when she saw how sweet Henri and MariaT are, she became curious of how was it like if she married the one she really loved back then?

No one knows JC's feelings for Jean, for sure, so I can assume that despite the harmony and love that developed between them over 51 years, I think she still felt a 'lack' inside her. Her life was very happy with her family but there are people who couldn't recover from the loss of chance of being married to one's true love, and I think she's one of such kind.

It's like Jean loved her fully, but she was not able to love him as much as he does. I liken her story to the story of Rose Dewitt-Bukater in the timeless 1997 Titanic movie. Rose's true love died, she married and had her own happy family, but still deep inside, she loved another person who left a permanent void in her heart. The old Ms. Rose says near the end of the film, "The heart is an ocean full of secrets". Like her, it's only JC who knew what she really felt. It's only she who knew her secrets...

...and that jealousy is directed towards MT because she was able to not give up on her love for Henri despite the objections on their love, one thing she wasn't able to do. Aside from that, she also envied MT as she is soo lucky her Henri fought along with her (what a love story and I'm dying of jealousy while writing this!)

I'm saying she's jealous of Henri and MT's story but why dislike only MT? My answer for that is... because he is her beloved son!

oh, I'm just someone thinking a nonsense assumption. Forgive me.

P.S. Sorry for my grammar. My explanation is confusing but I did my best to try to explain my thoughts. Thank you for understanding.

 

[Schatten]

Well, you don't know if she didn't love him fully! She simply appears cold and distant. That's just who she was. That was her character.

Josephine-Charlotte been through a lot in her life. Including losing her mother in an early age, going through war and exile. She also had a not very pleasant relationship with her stepmother, who made her suffer on her wedding day and kind of destroyed everything.

I don't believe she disliked MT because of her love to Henri. Maybe she simply disliked MT because of her nature.

But we don't know. Anyway it's an interesting topic.

If anyone has material of the late Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte, no matter what it is, please let me know.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I completely agree. IF there was bad blood between the two women how do we know it wasn't down to simple chemistry? Maybe they just didn't get along period.

I have always suspected that there was more to that story than what the public knows.

 

[maria-olivia]

This story started like this : the late Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte should have said that her Son the Grand Duke had a love affair with the Lady mayor ??)

Grand Duchess MT with the agreement of her Husband asked the Press to come and told bad thinks concerning her mother in law.

I knew someone of the Press who told me that they were shocked, their visit was unexpected for personal family affairs . A première for the Grand Ducal Court

The reaction from Gand Duke Jean is unknown

This is my last thread , I don't like to write things about a late Person.

I really respect Grand Duchess Josephine Charlotte.

 

[Schatten]

Something about that story isn't correct. Why should a woman of her kind, go out and tell lies about her own son? There is something we don't know, the side of J-C.

I really like and respect Grand Duchess Josephine-Charlotte. First i read, they sold her jewelry and then that she was an awful woman who tortured her daughter-in-law.

I cannot and will not believe it. She loved her country and family.

And i dislike the fact, that people think she was awful, it was MT who cried for help in public.

 

[Olyashka]

Hmm... if we consider that MT's version of the story is not true, why did GD Henri come along with her in the presscon? Why did he allow MT to malign his mother in public?

I am thinking if he believes his mother wasn't the one spreading that rumor, he would have disapproved of MT holding that presscon.

But he was there with his wife. He supported her. He went there knowing what MT would say. He knew it's his mother who MT would talk badly of.

I know lots of this M-I-L vs. D-I-L stories among royals and in common people life. What I noticed is it's most often the MIL who dislikes/loathes the DIL (examples: Empress Maria Feodorovna nee Princess Dagmar of Denmark vs. Empress Alexandra of Russia nee Pcss Alix of Hesse, my father's mother vs. my mother, many to mention). The reasons vary but it all comes down to a simple generalization ... the MIL thinks her son deserves a better woman.

On this story between JC and MT, I will assume it's JC who disliked MT first (despite being the first to give consent to their marriage) given the 'facts' that a crying GD Henri begged her (JC) to stop being harsh to MT (1988), and that he also supported MT on her 'irrational' presscon.

Btw, I am not here to create a dark image of JC or defend MT. It's just that this topic is interesting as what Schatten said. We never may be able to find out about the truth, however, it's fun to investigate and infer from the things we know about them : )

P.S.
'I've found my Prince Charming': Luxembourg's bride on how she fell in love with her fiancé

How would you describe your relationship with the Grand Duchess?

Stephanie: "Very good. I consider myself very lucky. Since my mother died, the Grand Duchess has been very present in my life, and she has been a sort of second mother here in Luxembourg."

Obviously, Stéphanie is very lucky to have a mother-in-law who stands as her second mother

Nevertheless, time will tell whether that relationship will stay or be broken..

 

[JR76]

She also had a not very pleasant relationship with her stepmother, who made her suffer on her wedding day and kind of destroyed everything.

I don't know much about J-C but I found her an absolute doll in the Danish series "A royal family". Very charming and chuckling with delight and mock horror when talking about how Uncle Goggi tried to put his false teeth down her décolletage.

We all know that Liliane was no summers breeze but what happened on her wedding day? Is what happened a rumour or a stated fact?


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