Delphine Boël, daughter of King Albert II

[Skippy]

Subsequently, it's interesting how she would react if she would get the last name but not the princess title and privileges part. My bet is very disappointed.
*If* she gets everything she wants, how would her title be?
HRH Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg of Belgium? It feels ridiculous to even type it, but I want to have a clear image of it.

 

[Heavs]

It seems people would accept it if she (still) just wanted "of Saxe Coburg", but now she apparently wants HRH etc she should have moved on years ago?

I don't think she should get it (especially not any money from the Belgian tax payer) but I don't necessarily see where there's such a huge line morally speaking or "now I think she's just doing it for the wrong reasons" between theoretically getting a title and not. Especially when other shenanigans with titles are par for the course in the royal/royal watching world and in the Belgian court acknowledging extinct Habsburg titles (yes I realise it's not exactly).

I do think even if she gets "HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium" it probably won't make her happy as such, but I can see why she might feel justified in wanting it. Assuming this isn't some bound to backfire power play.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

However, it is extremely ironic that many of the very same royal experts who most severely attack inheritance of royal and noble titles through female lines because it is "a breach with tradition" and "laws cannot change the fact that dynasties are determined by the father" are adamantly declaring that Delphine Boël deserves to be an HRH Princess of Belgium because "the times have changed" and "there is no law that explicitly forbids her from becoming one".

And it is ironic that they rely on Article 2 of the 2015 law to assert that Delphine has the right to be a princess while claiming that Astrid's grandchildren Anna Astrid and Maximilian have no right to be Belgian princes(ses), even when the formula "Princes and Princesses" specifying descendants of King Leopold I in Article 4 is identical to the formula specifying children and grandchildren of King Albert II in Article 2.

Links to the text of the law in Dutch and French are posted here.

Translation:

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

[...]

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.​

It seems more than a little hypocritical to interpret Article 2 as giving the right to be a prince(ss) to all children and grandchildren of Albert II while interpreting Article 4 as not giving the right to be a prince(ss) to all descendants of Leopold I.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder how close DElphine is with her mothers de Selys Longchamps noble family?

 

[tommy100]

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20...AC5B46D6774518EDDC3EC676D30CA46BC6FC401E6FB0B

So according to WD, she never wanted the titles or recognition until January when the DNA tests were out and Albert outright refused to acknowledge himself? Just released a press note and that was it, so she got mad and decided to continue with this until its last consequences.

I don't know, something is not really adding up right now, she's definitely out for revenge but always showed herself in a different way until this point.

She's not really thinking of her kids either IMO, they will definitely be caught in the crossfire and will of course not benefit from this at all, I really doubt they'd even get to meet their uncles and aunt or their cousins for example.

If Albert were still on the throne I would understand this (the bolded part) but as Philippe is now King and - if anything- has shown a desire to limit the RF somewhat in terms of titles and financing really Delphine is now just screwing over Philippe, who is as innocent in all of this as she is. This is where she can and IMO likely will loose any sympathy she had from the public in the past. It seems she is not being pure vindictive but while Albert enjoys his retirement the fuss she is creating is affecting Philippe more than Albert.

 

[leidi]

That is not the case for noble or royal titles, both of which are legally recognized and protected by law. And they are still significant. In the case of royal titles, they are even associated with an official public role and, in the case of Belgium, even state funding and other prerogatives as laid out by Tatiana Maria such as a residence from the Royal Donation Trust, etc.



It is quite obvious that Mme. Boël would not have given up the Boël inheritance if her lawyers had not persuaded her instead that she had a credible chance of a bigger prize, i.e. the full prerogatives of a princess of Belgium.





When the DNA tests were made public, King Albert issued a note acknowledging Delphine was his daughter and saying that he would make provisions for her in his will. In fact, he is no longer questioning in court Delphine's demand that he be recognized as her legal father. So I don't know what WD is talking about.


Of course, after repeatedly saying that she had no interest in money or titles, she has to come up with some far-fetched excuse to justify why she has made a U-turn now and is asking for both titles and money.

For what I could get from the article, she wanted Albert to come out himself and acknowledge her in public, like an interview or in front of a microphone , she felt that a presser was too "cold" and that she deserved "better"

 

[ladongas]

I simply don’t understand why you would want the name of someone who has denied you and treated you so badly.

I simply don’t understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

*If* she gets everything she wants, how would her title be?
HRH Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg of Belgium? It feels ridiculous to even type it, but I want to have a clear image of it.

HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium, (Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha).

The titles in parentheses are legal, but even in official documents they are never used. The part in bold is considered the legal surname and is similarly never used; instead, the title "of Belgium" is used as the equivalent of a surname at school, work, etc.

Examples of the usage of royal titles and surnames are linked in the Titles and Styles of the Belgian Royal Family thread.

It seems people would accept it if she (still) just wanted "of Saxe Coburg", but now she apparently wants HRH etc she should have moved on years ago?

I don't think she should get it (especially not any money from the Belgian tax payer) but I don't necessarily see where there's such a huge line morally speaking or "now I think she's just doing it for the wrong reasons" between theoretically getting a title and not. Especially when other shenanigans with titles are par for the course in the royal/royal watching world and in the Belgian court acknowledging extinct Habsburg titles (yes I realise it's not exactly).

I do think even if she gets "HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium" it probably won't make her happy as such, but I can see why she might feel justified in wanting it. Assuming this isn't some bound to backfire power play.

I think her stated feeling of not wanting to be treated as less important than her (half-)siblings is justified, though I think it is contradictory with the realities of a hereditary monarchy where Astrid and Laurent are treated as less important than Philippe because the latter is the eldest son. However, there are significant differences between taking the surname and taking the funds from taxpayers, titles, etc. The right to take the name of a legally recognized parent is enjoyed by any other individual in the same situation, and she has been candid throughout the process about her desired name. On the other hand, the right to take the noble titles of her parent (which Belgian law reserves to legitimate male-line children) and the right to receive payments from the civil list (which Belgian law reserves to senior royals) are not enjoyed by any other individual in the same situation, and Mrs. Boël had repeatedly denied that she wanted to pursue them.

I simply don’t understand why you would want the name of someone who has denied you and treated you so badly.

I simply don’t understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.

I don't understand the relevance of your response.

 

[crm2317]

I simply don’t understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.

That has no relevance to my point.

I was simply saying that I believe if I was in her shoes, I wouldn’t want to carry the name of someone who treated me so terribly .

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Because he's her father. I don't entirely agree with the woman but I think she has a right to be angry and hurt and it has probably made her embittered.

Not the case for every child mistreated by their father. I have my mother's surname rather than my father's surname and I'm happy I don't bear the surname of the man who refuses to acknowledge my existence.

 

[Prinsara]

Ofcourse I still firmly believe Albert II handled this very badly and his son has inherited the mess,would it be possible for Delphine to be made a Countess as compromise?

I'm thinking she might get that. It gives her undeniable recognition and a new identity, and is something she can pass to her children.

No idea how Philippe would feel, but it's also perfectly within keeping of recognition for centuries of royal bastards.

I wonder how close DElphine is with her mothers de Selys Longchamps noble family?

She always speaks about her family as though it's Sybille and herself, so you can't blame her entirely for seeking belonging somewhere as badly as she does. IIRC Sybille once said she was almost pathologically not-close to her own parents, or at least her mother.

 

[Eskimo]

I'm thinking she might get that. It gives her undeniable recognition and a new identity, and is something she can pass to her children.

No idea how Philippe would feel, but it's also perfectly within keeping of recognition for centuries of royal bastards.



She always speaks about her family as though it's Sybille and herself, so you can't blame her entirely for seeking belonging somewhere as badly as she does. IIRC Sybille once said she was almost pathologically not-close to her own parents, or at least her mother.

The bolded part is what she actually is.

Even if Albert had announced to the world she was his, the day she was born, she still wouldn’t be a Princess of Belgium because she was not born legitimate.

If they make her a Princess of Belgium what’s to stop others from claiming and possibly proving they are Albert’s illegitimate children? Will they all be made HRH and given a state donation? Or if some can provide proof that they were Badouin’s illegitimate child, will they become the reigning sovereign?

This is getting silly....

 

[Prinsara]

She's the only one who's come forth in 21 years, and while I don't believe she's entitled to HRH Princess, she's been treated appallingly by the man responsible and since she certainly didn't ask to be the bastard of one, I do believe she deserves better.

I mean, no one is using "Princess of Liège" at the moment... though that would probably be enough to finish Albert off. Philippe probably doesn't want to try for parricide even with legal immunity...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Should the courts rule that Delphine Boël is entitled to inherit the titles of her soon-to-be father, I strongly hope that it will be a general ruling which applies to all other illegitimate children and to the legitimate children of noble mothers, rather than a ruling specific to Delphine. (As stated earlier, both classes of children are barred from inheriting titles under Belgian nobiliary law.)

That does not appear to be what Delphine Boël and her lawyers are actually seeking. As far as I can tell, her lawyers are claiming this right only for their client, not for any other children. But I see no reason why Mrs. Boël should be given better treatment than all other individuals in the same position.

 

[Countessmeout]

I could understand if the couple simply weren't married and had a child. And it would be nice to see for noble titles. With common law marriages, and children out of wedlock now a days, it is more common.

But that's not the case here. Delphine's parents, both of them, were married when she was conceived. And not married to each other. They were both committing adultery. And while yes some kings of past like Henry VIII and the French kings would give bastards a title, it was not a rule by any sense. And they didn't 'inherit' a title. They were not prince and princesses. They were given some ducal or count title, some type of rank. A bastard of a French king was not going to be made a royal prince.

I guess there is some argument, for her to be given a Countess title lets say. But HRH Prince/ss there is no precedence for a bastard to gain such.

Children born out of wedlock whose parents could possibly marry in the future even if they don't (like Jazim Grimaldi) are not the same thing as a child born from adultery.

 

[ladongas]

That has no relevance to my point.

I was simply saying that I believe if I was in her shoes, I wouldn’t want to carry the name of someone who treated me so terribly .

Ah! There you have it! You are not in her shoes, and therefore have the luxury of making a high-minded but meaningless decision, without having to suffer or consider anything in the real world.

She’s entitled to her feelings. And Albert and his wife will have to deal with their own feelings about his un-Kingly behavior.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

the luxury of making a high-minded but meaningless decision, without having to suffer or consider anything in the real world.

I do not see how a preference for not carrying an absent father's surname is inherently more high-minded, meaningless, free of suffering or out of touch with the real world than a preference for carrying it.

Ah! There you have it! You are not in her shoes, [...] She’s entitled to her feelings.

That is true, and in the same vein, you are not in the shoes of the poster to whom you were responding, and they are also entitled to their feelings.

 

[Mumper]

Ah! There you have it! You are not in her shoes, and therefore have the luxury of making a high-minded but meaningless decision, without having to suffer or consider anything in the real world.

She’s entitled to her feelings. And Albert and his wife will have to deal with their own feelings about his un-Kingly behavior.

And maybe her own mother needs to do some soul-searching about being with a married man and perhaps not raising a daughter with decent values and expectations?

There's just enough tawdry behaviour on all sides to go around, unfortunately.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I simply don’t understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.

He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

The baroness thought that she was unable to conceive. That is why she and Albert, both unhappy in their own marriages, took no precautions. From the first second it was crystal clear that a father role was impossible for the Prince de Liège, the successor to his childless brother King Baudouin. Not only were mother and father both from a milieu with conservative norms. It was also the Catholic Belgium of 50 years ago and there was the monarchy under the pious, ascetic and strict King and Queen.

What was arranged for Delphine was agreed with all parties. From day one she was born and accepted and registered as daughter inside the marriage of the baroness and her husband jonkheer Jacques Boël, a nobleman from one of Belgium's most wealthy and privileged families.

This peaceful coexistence only became disturbed when much later in life Delphine firstly did demand recognition. Even her own mother initially did not support her: c'est la vie, it is what it is, all and everyone have acted in the very best interest of the child.

The stingy reaction of King Albert on Delphine going public made that the baroness finally choose her daughter's side, now her own reputation (it takes two to tango) was in tatters as well.

 

[RosieStroud]

He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

The baroness thought that she was unable to conceive. That is why she and Albert, both unhappy in their own marriages, took no precautions. From the first second it was crystal clear that a father role was impossible for the Prince de Liège, the successor to his childless brother King Baudouin. Not only were mother and father both from a milieu with conservative norms. It was also the Catholic Belgium of 50 years ago and there was the monarchy under the pious, ascetic and strict King and Queen.

What was arranged for Delphine was agreed with all parties. From day one she was born and accepted and registered as daughter inside the marriage of the baroness and her husband jonkheer Jacques Boël, a nobleman from one of Belgium's most wealthy and privileged families.

This peaceful coexistence only became disturbed when much later in life Delphine firstly did demand recognition. Even her own mother initially did not support her: c'est la vie, it is what it is, all and everyone have acted in the very best interest of the child.

The stingy reaction of King Albert on Delphine going public made that the baroness finally choose her daughter's side, now her own reputation (it takes two to tango) was in tatters as well.[/

 

[RosieStroud]

He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

The baroness thought that she was unable to conceive. That is why she and Albert, both unhappy in their own marriages, took no precautions. From the first second it was crystal clear that a father role was impossible for the Prince de Liège, the successor to his childless brother King Baudouin. Not only were mother and father both from a milieu with conservative norms. It was also the Catholic Belgium of 50 years ago and there was the monarchy under the pious, ascetic and strict King and Queen.

What was arranged for Delphine was agreed with all parties. From day one she was born and accepted and registered as daughter inside the marriage of the baroness and her husband jonkheer Jacques Boël, a nobleman from one of Belgium's most wealthy and privileged families.

This peaceful coexistence only became disturbed when much later in life Delphine firstly did demand recognition. Even her own mother initially did not support her: c'est la vie, it is what it is, all and everyone have acted in the very best interest of the child.

The stingy reaction of King Albert on Delphine going public made that the baroness finally choose her daughter's side, now her own reputation (it takes two to tango) was in tatters as well.[/

Sorry, I meant to say succinct and to the point!

 

[Mbruno]

Should the courts rule that Delphine Boël is entitled to inherit the titles of her soon-to-be father, I strongly hope that it will be a general ruling which applies to all other illegitimate children and to the legitimate children of noble mothers, rather than a ruling specific to Delphine. (As stated earlier, both classes of children are barred from inheriting titles under Belgian nobiliary law.)

That does not appear to be what Delphine Boël and her lawyers are actually seeking. As far as I can tell, her lawyers are claiming this right only for their client, not for any other children. But I see no reason why Mrs. Boël should be given better treatment than all other individuals in the same position.

I don't think the court will rule in favor of Delphine, but, even if it did, it could argue that royal titles are different from titles of nobility and subject to different legal regulation.



The good thing about this case is that it will force the Belgian courts to settle once and for all what "Princes and princesses" mean in the context of the royal decrees of 1891, 1991 and 2015.

 

[Prinsara]

He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth — but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too — before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.

 

[Denville]

This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... a
It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too — before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.

he played a kindly father/unlce when it suited him.. and when it didn't he was away . He only gave up saying he wasn't her father when he lost his legal immunity and he finally knew that he just looked ridiculous and wrong in refusing to acknowledge her. I dont blame her for being angry and hurt and obsessed...

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth — but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too — before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.

Given the period, the Belgium of 50 years ago, given the situation that both parents were married, and given the extraordinary position of the father as Heir, given the honour of both Jonkheer Jacques Boël as well Princess Paola (who both bear no any responsibility but face the social consequences) it was a decision made with the best intentions.

It is very easy to rattle a condemnation on a keyboard, from behind a monitor what should have been done or not, back then in 1967 and 1968. It is very well possible that both Boël as well Paola only agreed with Albert having contact with his daughter on condition of absolute discretion. We simply do not know and it does not matter.

Fact is that in no any way, this child, born with a triple platinum spoon, raised in a splendid mansion on a lavish family estate was "treated badly". Her very own mother said that it was agreed Albert would not have a father role. But nevertheless he was sweet, loving, caring and always interested in Delphine.

C'est la vie. Life is not always fair. Any today's kid in Moira, that refugee camp on Lesbos (Greece) would immediately swap their youth with the youth of "poor Delphine".

 

[Skippy]

This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth — but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too — before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.

Don't bother, he truly doesn't see it. My take is that he would gladly have traded places with her and it stings *him* that she has not sucked it up and been grateful for the "extensive wealth that Jacques Boël's fortune has provided for her".

Anyway, I am out of here and will probably only come back when the verdict is issued. It's not where I want to be.

 

[Madame Verseau]

You don't put up a court fight for paternity unless you want more than recognition and now she wants titles. Does she want succession rights too? King Albert really made a mess here by doing it and dragging it out.

 

[Prinsara]

She wasn't going to get recognition without the court fight.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth — but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

I think when posters (or Delphine herself) refer to mistreatment by Albert it is typically not a reference to his behavior during Delphine's childhood but rather since 1999, when his paternity was made public by the press (not by Delphine), leading to his choice to terminate their private relationship and refuse to provide assistance with the fallout.

Don't bother, he truly doesn't see it. My take is that he would gladly have traded places with her and it stings *him* [...]

I think it would be fairer if each poster could speak for their own feelings rather than having others attempt to guess and speak their feelings on their behalf.

 

[Prinsara]

How I would fix this if I were Philippe (which I am not):

1) Apologize privately for your mutual-father. Albert is not going to; somebody needs to. You've been treated very badly and we're sorry and we do want you as part of the family.

2) Public signs of recognition and reconciliation. Let her come quietly to appropriate events and memorials, if she wants. Why should she get less than Isabelle Wybo? If other people cease treating her like persona non grata, Albert may rediscover some manners before he dies. (I'm sorry if this embarrasses your mom. She's already been embarrased for quite a while. Her pride doesn't entail treating someone else badly.) Bonus: the faster you normalize it, the faster it stops being news.

3) Let her kids have access to their royal heritage, like yours and their cousins do. Let them visit and run around the palaces, if they want. Why not? Probably can't hurt. Would likely help.

If you do 1, 2, and 3, you may not even have to do—

4) Give her whatever non-HRH title works. I think Delphine will only push for so-called equal treatment if she's not shown any acceptance. Some kindness and true noblesse oblige could make this better before it likely gets worse.