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  #1781  
Old 09-11-2020, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Ofcourse I still firmly believe Albert II handled this very badly and his son has inherited the mess,would it be possible for Delphine to be made a Countess as compromise?
I'm thinking she might get that. It gives her undeniable recognition and a new identity, and is something she can pass to her children.

No idea how Philippe would feel, but it's also perfectly within keeping of recognition for centuries of royal bastards.

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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I wonder how close DElphine is with her mothers de Selys Longchamps noble family?
She always speaks about her family as though it's Sybille and herself, so you can't blame her entirely for seeking belonging somewhere as badly as she does. IIRC Sybille once said she was almost pathologically not-close to her own parents, or at least her mother.
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  #1782  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
I'm thinking she might get that. It gives her undeniable recognition and a new identity, and is something she can pass to her children.

No idea how Philippe would feel, but it's also perfectly within keeping of recognition for centuries of royal bastards.



She always speaks about her family as though it's Sybille and herself, so you can't blame her entirely for seeking belonging somewhere as badly as she does. IIRC Sybille once said she was almost pathologically not-close to her own parents, or at least her mother.
The bolded part is what she actually is.

Even if Albert had announced to the world she was his, the day she was born, she still wouldnít be a Princess of Belgium because she was not born legitimate.

If they make her a Princess of Belgium whatís to stop others from claiming and possibly proving they are Albertís illegitimate children? Will they all be made HRH and given a state donation? Or if some can provide proof that they were Badouinís illegitimate child, will they become the reigning sovereign?

This is getting silly....
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  #1783  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:54 PM
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She's the only one who's come forth in 21 years, and while I don't believe she's entitled to HRH Princess, she's been treated appallingly by the man responsible and since she certainly didn't ask to be the bastard of one, I do believe she deserves better.

I mean, no one is using "Princess of LiŤge" at the moment... though that would probably be enough to finish Albert off. Philippe probably doesn't want to try for parricide even with legal immunity...
  #1784  
Old 09-11-2020, 09:11 PM
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Should the courts rule that Delphine BoŽl is entitled to inherit the titles of her soon-to-be father, I strongly hope that it will be a general ruling which applies to all other illegitimate children and to the legitimate children of noble mothers, rather than a ruling specific to Delphine. (As stated earlier, both classes of children are barred from inheriting titles under Belgian nobiliary law.)

That does not appear to be what Delphine BoŽl and her lawyers are actually seeking. As far as I can tell, her lawyers are claiming this right only for their client, not for any other children. But I see no reason why Mrs. BoŽl should be given better treatment than all other individuals in the same position.
  #1785  
Old 09-11-2020, 10:03 PM
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I could understand if the couple simply weren't married and had a child. And it would be nice to see for noble titles. With common law marriages, and children out of wedlock now a days, it is more common.

But that's not the case here. Delphine's parents, both of them, were married when she was conceived. And not married to each other. They were both committing adultery. And while yes some kings of past like Henry VIII and the French kings would give bastards a title, it was not a rule by any sense. And they didn't 'inherit' a title. They were not prince and princesses. They were given some ducal or count title, some type of rank. A bastard of a French king was not going to be made a royal prince.

I guess there is some argument, for her to be given a Countess title lets say. But HRH Prince/ss there is no precedence for a bastard to gain such.

Children born out of wedlock whose parents could possibly marry in the future even if they don't (like Jazim Grimaldi) are not the same thing as a child born from adultery.
  #1786  
Old 09-11-2020, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
That has no relevance to my point.

I was simply saying that I believe if I was in her shoes, I wouldnít want to carry the name of someone who treated me so terribly .
Ah! There you have it! You are not in her shoes, and therefore have the luxury of making a high-minded but meaningless decision, without having to suffer or consider anything in the real world.

Sheís entitled to her feelings. And Albert and his wife will have to deal with their own feelings about his un-Kingly behavior.
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  #1787  
Old 09-11-2020, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
the luxury of making a high-minded but meaningless decision, without having to suffer or consider anything in the real world.
I do not see how a preference for not carrying an absent father's surname is inherently more high-minded, meaningless, free of suffering or out of touch with the real world than a preference for carrying it.

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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Ah! There you have it! You are not in her shoes, [...] Sheís entitled to her feelings.
That is true, and in the same vein, you are not in the shoes of the poster to whom you were responding, and they are also entitled to their feelings.
  #1788  
Old 09-11-2020, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
Ah! There you have it! You are not in her shoes, and therefore have the luxury of making a high-minded but meaningless decision, without having to suffer or consider anything in the real world.

She’s entitled to her feelings. And Albert and his wife will have to deal with their own feelings about his un-Kingly behavior.
And maybe her own mother needs to do some soul-searching about being with a married man and perhaps not raising a daughter with decent values and expectations?

There's just enough tawdry behaviour on all sides to go around, unfortunately.
  #1789  
Old 09-12-2020, 02:51 AM
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Originally Posted by ladongas View Post
I simply don’t understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.
He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

The baroness thought that she was unable to conceive. That is why she and Albert, both unhappy in their own marriages, took no precautions. From the first second it was crystal clear that a father role was impossible for the Prince de LiŤge, the successor to his childless brother King Baudouin. Not only were mother and father both from a milieu with conservative norms. It was also the Catholic Belgium of 50 years ago and there was the monarchy under the pious, ascetic and strict King and Queen.

What was arranged for Delphine was agreed with all parties. From day one she was born and accepted and registered as daughter inside the marriage of the baroness and her husband jonkheer Jacques BoŽl, a nobleman from one of Belgium's most wealthy and privileged families.

This peaceful coexistence only became disturbed when much later in life Delphine firstly did demand recognition. Even her own mother initially did not support her: c'est la vie, it is what it is, all and everyone have acted in the very best interest of the child.

The stingy reaction of King Albert on Delphine going public made that the baroness finally choose her daughter's side, now her own reputation (it takes two to tango) was in tatters as well.
  #1790  
Old 09-12-2020, 06:28 AM
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[QUOTE=Duc_et_Pair;2341891]He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

The baroness thought that she was unable to conceive. That is why she and Albert, both unhappy in their own marriages, took no precautions. From the first second it was crystal clear that a father role was impossible for the Prince de LiŤge, the successor to his childless brother King Baudouin. Not only were mother and father both from a milieu with conservative norms. It was also the Catholic Belgium of 50 years ago and there was the monarchy under the pious, ascetic and strict King and Queen.

What was arranged for Delphine was agreed with all parties. From day one she was born and accepted and registered as daughter inside the marriage of the baroness and her husband jonkheer Jacques BoŽl, a nobleman from one of Belgium's most wealthy and privileged families.

This peaceful coexistence only became disturbed when much later in life Delphine firstly did demand recognition. Even her own mother initially did not support her: c'est la vie, it is what it is, all and everyone have acted in the very best interest of the child.

The stingy reaction of King Albert on Delphine going public made that the baroness finally choose her daughter's side, now her own reputation (it takes two to tango) was in tatters as well.[/
  #1791  
Old 09-12-2020, 06:29 AM
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[QUOTE=RosieStroud;2341905]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.

The baroness thought that she was unable to conceive. That is why she and Albert, both unhappy in their own marriages, took no precautions. From the first second it was crystal clear that a father role was impossible for the Prince de LiŤge, the successor to his childless brother King Baudouin. Not only were mother and father both from a milieu with conservative norms. It was also the Catholic Belgium of 50 years ago and there was the monarchy under the pious, ascetic and strict King and Queen.

What was arranged for Delphine was agreed with all parties. From day one she was born and accepted and registered as daughter inside the marriage of the baroness and her husband jonkheer Jacques BoŽl, a nobleman from one of Belgium's most wealthy and privileged families.

This peaceful coexistence only became disturbed when much later in life Delphine firstly did demand recognition. Even her own mother initially did not support her: c'est la vie, it is what it is, all and everyone have acted in the very best interest of the child.

The stingy reaction of King Albert on Delphine going public made that the baroness finally choose her daughter's side, now her own reputation (it takes two to tango) was in tatters as well.[/


Sorry, I meant to say succinct and to the point!
  #1792  
Old 09-12-2020, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Should the courts rule that Delphine BoŽl is entitled to inherit the titles of her soon-to-be father, I strongly hope that it will be a general ruling which applies to all other illegitimate children and to the legitimate children of noble mothers, rather than a ruling specific to Delphine. (As stated earlier, both classes of children are barred from inheriting titles under Belgian nobiliary law.)

That does not appear to be what Delphine BoŽl and her lawyers are actually seeking. As far as I can tell, her lawyers are claiming this right only for their client, not for any other children. But I see no reason why Mrs. BoŽl should be given better treatment than all other individuals in the same position.



I don't think the court will rule in favor of Delphine, but, even if it did, it could argue that royal titles are different from titles of nobility and subject to different legal regulation.



The good thing about this case is that it will force the Belgian courts to settle once and for all what "Princes and princesses" mean in the context of the royal decrees of 1891, 1991 and 2015.
  #1793  
Old 09-12-2020, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.
This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth ó but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too ó before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.
  #1794  
Old 09-12-2020, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... a
It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too ó before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.
he played a kindly father/unlce when it suited him.. and when it didn't he was away . He only gave up saying he wasn't her father when he lost his legal immunity and he finally knew that he just looked ridiculous and wrong in refusing to acknowledge her. I dont blame her for being angry and hurt and obsessed...
  #1795  
Old 09-12-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth — but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too — before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.
Given the period, the Belgium of 50 years ago, given the situation that both parents were married, and given the extraordinary position of the father as Heir, given the honour of both Jonkheer Jacques BoŽl as well Princess Paola (who both bear no any responsibility but face the social consequences) it was a decision made with the best intentions.

It is very easy to rattle a condemnation on a keyboard, from behind a monitor what should have been done or not, back then in 1967 and 1968. It is very well possible that both BoŽl as well Paola only agreed with Albert having contact with his daughter on condition of absolute discretion. We simply do not know and it does not matter.

Fact is that in no any way, this child, born with a triple platinum spoon, raised in a splendid mansion on a lavish family estate was "treated badly". Her very own mother said that it was agreed Albert would not have a father role. But nevertheless he was sweet, loving, caring and always interested in Delphine.

C'est la vie. Life is not always fair. Any today's kid in Moira, that refugee camp on Lesbos (Greece) would immediately swap their youth with the youth of "poor Delphine".
  #1796  
Old 09-12-2020, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth — but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.

It's not just stingy; it's self-serving. I don't know that Delphine could have expected anything else from him, but it's easy to see why she'd be upset.

It seems like Albert very much got to have his secret other family cake and eat it too — before he decided to do a 180 and pretend Delphine didn't exist for a couple of decades. How gracious and decent.
Don't bother, he truly doesn't see it. My take is that he would gladly have traded places with her and it stings *him* that she has not sucked it up and been grateful for the "extensive wealth that Jacques BoŽl's fortune has provided for her".

Anyway, I am out of here and will probably only come back when the verdict is issued. It's not where I want to be.
  #1797  
Old 09-12-2020, 04:05 PM
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You don't put up a court fight for paternity unless you want more than recognition and now she wants titles. Does she want succession rights too? King Albert really made a mess here by doing it and dragging it out.
  #1798  
Old 09-12-2020, 04:08 PM
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She wasn't going to get recognition without the court fight.
  #1799  
Old 09-12-2020, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
He did not threat her badly at all. On the day of his abdication the baroness, Sybille de Selys Longchamps gave an interview in which she spoke warmly about Albert. No, he had no father role but he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, who named him "papillon". The Prince was always interested in her progress and he regularly visited his daughter, something Delphine always enjoyed and looked forward to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
This contradicts what Albert himself most recently claimed. So "he was always loving and sweet towards Delphine, and regularly visited her"... and was a family friend and went on vacation with them... and visited Delphine when she was in the hospital with an eating disorder... and was probably the closest thing Delphine had to an affectionate male figure in her life, and that's before Sybille told her the truth ó but he of course had "no major role or decisions in her upbringing" (even though he is, actually, her father) and that's all he wants to stress.
I think when posters (or Delphine herself) refer to mistreatment by Albert it is typically not a reference to his behavior during Delphine's childhood but rather since 1999, when his paternity was made public by the press (not by Delphine), leading to his choice to terminate their private relationship and refuse to provide assistance with the fallout.


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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
Don't bother, he truly doesn't see it. My take is that he would gladly have traded places with her and it stings *him* [...]
I think it would be fairer if each poster could speak for their own feelings rather than having others attempt to guess and speak their feelings on their behalf.
  #1800  
Old 09-12-2020, 06:26 PM
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How I would fix this if I were Philippe (which I am not):

1) Apologize privately for your mutual-father. Albert is not going to; somebody needs to. You've been treated very badly and we're sorry and we do want you as part of the family.

2) Public signs of recognition and reconciliation. Let her come quietly to appropriate events and memorials, if she wants. Why should she get less than Isabelle Wybo? If other people cease treating her like persona non grata, Albert may rediscover some manners before he dies. (I'm sorry if this embarrasses your mom. She's already been embarrased for quite a while. Her pride doesn't entail treating someone else badly.) Bonus: the faster you normalize it, the faster it stops being news.

3) Let her kids have access to their royal heritage, like yours and their cousins do. Let them visit and run around the palaces, if they want. Why not? Probably can't hurt. Would likely help.

If you do 1, 2, and 3, you may not even have to doó

4) Give her whatever non-HRH title works. I think Delphine will only push for so-called equal treatment if she's not shown any acceptance. Some kindness and true noblesse oblige could make this better before it likely gets worse.
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