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  #1761  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is not the case for noble or royal titles, both of which are legally recognized and protected by law. And they are still significant. In the case of royal titles, they are even associated with an official public role and, in the case of Belgium, even state funding and other prerogatives as laid out by Tatiana Maria such as a residence from the Royal Donation Trust, etc.
I'm well aware of all of that. I wasn't talking about Belgian royalty or nobility. I was just commenting that we don't necessarily question the motives/characters of people who want to hang on to titles which are no longer recognised (and in some cases actually illegal) but the families like to claim is their inherent right as descendants of all this illustriousness, making them special beyond what a constitution says. And people/other courts agree and use these titles as courtesy. And there are ugly (and public) family feuds over headship, marriage and status even when property or money aren't involved.

I wasn't making any case that Delphine should becoming HRH Princess, I don't actually think she should. I was just saying if we can understand why those people want to cling on to them, perhaps we can understand why Delphine (and Carlos Klynstra) might feel entitled to them as well without suddenly questioning their entire characters.
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  #1762  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:09 AM
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I simply donít understand why you would want the name of someone who has denied you and treated you so badly.
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  #1763  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is not the case for noble or royal titles, both of which are legally recognized and protected by law. And they are still significant. In the case of royal titles, they are even associated with an official public role and, in the case of Belgium, even state funding and other prerogatives as laid out by Tatiana Maria such as a residence from the Royal Donation Trust, etc.



It is quite obvious that Mme. BoŽl would not have given up the BoŽl inheritance if her lawyers had not persuaded her instead that she had a credible chance of a bigger prize, i.e. the full prerogatives of a princess of Belgium.
Very much doubt that being a prinses van BelgiŽ / princesse de Belgique brings more wealth and privileges than being Madame BoŽl. Ask Princess Marie Christine, ask Princess Maria Esmeralda, ask Prince Laurent...
  #1764  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:20 AM
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Ofcourse I still firmly believe Albert II handled this very badly and his son has inherited the mess,would it be possible for Delphine to be made a Countess as compromise?
  #1765  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Ofcourse I still firmly believe Albert II handled this very badly and his son has inherited the mess,would it be possible for Delphine to be made a Countess as compromise?
The King regularly elevates Belgians into the Nobility, so yes.
But that is not what Delphine asks. Delphine already was a noble as daughter of jonkheer Jacques BoŽl / messire Jacques Boėl, ťcuyer. Now she is no longer his daughter, she needs another surname.

It seems the King is very much acting in the interests of Queen Paola, who seems the motor behind the obstructive policy.
  #1766  
Old 09-11-2020, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I simply donít understand why you would want the name of someone who has denied you and treated you so badly.
Because he's her father. I don't entirely agree with the woman but I think she has a right to be angry and hurt and it has probably made her embittered.
  #1767  
Old 09-11-2020, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
I know it's not the same thing but in a world where we acknowledge it's completely acceptable for families who's inherited titles lost any legality or significance over 100 years ago to still cling fiercely to them and talk about how it's "not just about the law, it's something inherent to our family" without their motives being (too) questioned, I can see illegitimate children being "he's my father too, all this illustrious history is mine too, why shouldn't I get a title too?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
I was just commenting that we don't necessarily question the motives/characters of people who want to hang on to titles which are no longer recognised (and in some cases actually illegal) but the families like to claim is their inherent right as descendants of all this illustriousness, making them special beyond what a constitution says.

While I personally think that contentions such as "titles are something inherent to our family" and "we are above the constitution" are very questionable regardless of who is pleading them, I can understand how, for those so convinced, it justifies a request like Mrs. BoŽl's.

However, it is extremely ironic that many of the very same royal experts who most severely attack inheritance of royal and noble titles through female lines because it is "a breach with tradition" and "laws cannot change the fact that dynasties are determined by the father" are adamantly declaring that Delphine BoŽl deserves to be an HRH Princess of Belgium because "the times have changed" and "there is no law that explicitly forbids her from becoming one".



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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So, I agree with many that Delphine is overplaying her hand with her latest requests. There is no reason at all that the state should fund in any way shape or form Albert's off-spring outside of his recognized marriage.

From what I am seeing, the two main reasons presented by royal watchers who defend Mrs. BoŽl's right to state funding and housing are that there is no law stating she should not receive these benefits and that she deserves monetary compensation for her biological father's treatment of her over the years. (I am still not clear on why they reason that the financial burden should fall on the shoulders of the government and the Belgian public rather than King Albert himself.)
  #1768  
Old 09-11-2020, 09:30 AM
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Hmm, well I'd always thought well of her for saying she didn't want the royal trappings but just to know who her father is....why the sudden change? Or was this her plans all along?
My thoughts were the same. Wasn't it she that said that she only wanted to be recognized as his daughter. I also can't help but think that this was her plan all along. Not that King Albert handled things well from the beginning, but I have never thought much of Delphine and think even less of her now that this has surfaced.
  #1769  
Old 09-11-2020, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by princess gertrude View Post
My thoughts were the same. Wasn't it she that said that she only wanted to be recognized as his daughter. I also can't help but think that this was her plan all along. Not that King Albert handled things well from the beginning, but I have never thought much of Delphine and think even less of her now that this has surfaced.
Oh of course itís been her goal all along. What other goal would there be?

You donít spend years of your life going after someone like she has Albert for simple recognition.

I sympathize with how hurtful it must be to have a father whoís not especially interested in you but thereís a difference between hurt and bitterness. Hurt can be managed, bitterness just festers and gets uglier as time goes on. She could get every title and royal honour available in Belgium and it wonít change the fact that Delphine and her mother lost when it mattered - Albert went back to the people he considered his real family and seemingly never looked back. The courts canít magically change the past so that Delphineís mother was Albertís wife instead of the mistress and Delphine was the child whose welfare he chose to prioritize.

On the other hand, unlike many children in similar situations, Delphine had a man who publicly recognized her as his daughter and assumed the responsibilities involved with having a child and she seems to have tossed him aside much like Albert did to her so I wonít shed too many tears for her.

I remember at the beginning of this little drama being willing to give Delphine the benefit of the doubt because her biological father and her mother really did put her in a bad position. But itís become increasingly clear sheís motivated only by bitterness and greed. She needs to lick her wounds and move on.
  #1770  
Old 09-11-2020, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by camelot23ca View Post
Oh of course itís been her goal all along. What other goal would there be?

You donít spend years of your life going after someone like she has Albert for simple recognition.

I sympathize with how hurtful it must be to have a father whoís not especially interested in you but thereís a difference between hurt and bitterness. Hurt can be managed, bitterness just festers and gets uglier as time goes on. She could get every title and royal honour available in Belgium and it wonít change the fact that Delphine and her mother lost when it mattered - Albert went back to the people he considered his real family and seemingly never looked back. The courts canít magically change the past so that Delphineís mother was Albertís wife instead of the mistress and Delphine was the child whose welfare he chose to prioritize.

On the other hand, unlike many children in similar situations, Delphine had a man who publicly recognized her as his daughter and assumed the responsibilities involved with having a child and she seems to have tossed him aside much like Albert did to her so I wonít shed too many tears for her.

I remember at the beginning of this little drama being willing to give Delphine the benefit of the doubt because her biological father and her mother really did put her in a bad position. But itís become increasingly clear sheís motivated only by bitterness and greed. She needs to lick her wounds and move on.

That summs it up nicely I think


i start to feel very sorry for Delphine; she is trapped in her bitterness instead of living her life; it would be much healthear for her to move on.
  #1771  
Old 09-11-2020, 12:20 PM
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Subsequently, it's interesting how she would react if she would get the last name but not the princess title and privileges part. My bet is very disappointed.
*If* she gets everything she wants, how would her title be?
HRH Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg of Belgium? It feels ridiculous to even type it, but I want to have a clear image of it.
  #1772  
Old 09-11-2020, 12:26 PM
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It seems people would accept it if she (still) just wanted "of Saxe Coburg", but now she apparently wants HRH etc she should have moved on years ago?

I don't think she should get it (especially not any money from the Belgian tax payer) but I don't necessarily see where there's such a huge line morally speaking or "now I think she's just doing it for the wrong reasons" between theoretically getting a title and not. Especially when other shenanigans with titles are par for the course in the royal/royal watching world and in the Belgian court acknowledging extinct Habsburg titles (yes I realise it's not exactly).

I do think even if she gets "HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium" it probably won't make her happy as such, but I can see why she might feel justified in wanting it. Assuming this isn't some bound to backfire power play.
  #1773  
Old 09-11-2020, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
However, it is extremely ironic that many of the very same royal experts who most severely attack inheritance of royal and noble titles through female lines because it is "a breach with tradition" and "laws cannot change the fact that dynasties are determined by the father" are adamantly declaring that Delphine BoŽl deserves to be an HRH Princess of Belgium because "the times have changed" and "there is no law that explicitly forbids her from becoming one".
And it is ironic that they rely on Article 2 of the 2015 law to assert that Delphine has the right to be a princess while claiming that Astrid's grandchildren Anna Astrid and Maximilian have no right to be Belgian princes(ses), even when the formula "Princes and Princesses" specifying descendants of King Leopold I in Article 4 is identical to the formula specifying children and grandchildren of King Albert II in Article 2.

Links to the text of the law in Dutch and French are posted here.

Translation:

Article 2. In the public and private acts relating to them, the Princes and the Princesses, children and grandchildren, born in direct descendance from His Majesty King Albert II carry the title of Prince or of Princess of Belgium following their forename, and, so far as they carry them, their family name and their dynastic title and ahead of the other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right. Their forename is preceded by the predicate His or Her Royal Highness.

[...]

Article 4. The Princes and Princesses, born in direct descendance from His Majesty Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, who are not covered by Articles 1 to 3, carry following their forename and, so far as they carry it, their family name, the titles to which their ancestry gives them the right.

It seems more than a little hypocritical to interpret Article 2 as giving the right to be a prince(ss) to all children and grandchildren of Albert II while interpreting Article 4 as not giving the right to be a prince(ss) to all descendants of Leopold I.
  #1774  
Old 09-11-2020, 03:01 PM
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I wonder how close DElphine is with her mothers de Selys Longchamps noble family?
  #1775  
Old 09-11-2020, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by leidi View Post
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf202...BC6FC401E6FB0B

So according to WD, she never wanted the titles or recognition until January when the DNA tests were out and Albert outright refused to acknowledge himself? Just released a press note and that was it, so she got mad and decided to continue with this until its last consequences.

I don't know, something is not really adding up right now, she's definitely out for revenge but always showed herself in a different way until this point.

She's not really thinking of her kids either IMO, they will definitely be caught in the crossfire and will of course not benefit from this at all, I really doubt they'd even get to meet their uncles and aunt or their cousins for example.
If Albert were still on the throne I would understand this (the bolded part) but as Philippe is now King and - if anything- has shown a desire to limit the RF somewhat in terms of titles and financing really Delphine is now just screwing over Philippe, who is as innocent in all of this as she is. This is where she can and IMO likely will loose any sympathy she had from the public in the past. It seems she is not being pure vindictive but while Albert enjoys his retirement the fuss she is creating is affecting Philippe more than Albert.
  #1776  
Old 09-11-2020, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is not the case for noble or royal titles, both of which are legally recognized and protected by law. And they are still significant. In the case of royal titles, they are even associated with an official public role and, in the case of Belgium, even state funding and other prerogatives as laid out by Tatiana Maria such as a residence from the Royal Donation Trust, etc.



It is quite obvious that Mme. BoŽl would not have given up the BoŽl inheritance if her lawyers had not persuaded her instead that she had a credible chance of a bigger prize, i.e. the full prerogatives of a princess of Belgium.





When the DNA tests were made public, King Albert issued a note acknowledging Delphine was his daughter and saying that he would make provisions for her in his will. In fact, he is no longer questioning in court Delphine's demand that he be recognized as her legal father. So I don't know what WD is talking about.


Of course, after repeatedly saying that she had no interest in money or titles, she has to come up with some far-fetched excuse to justify why she has made a U-turn now and is asking for both titles and money.
For what I could get from the article, she wanted Albert to come out himself and acknowledge her in public, like an interview or in front of a microphone , she felt that a presser was too "cold" and that she deserved "better"
  #1777  
Old 09-11-2020, 04:27 PM
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I simply donít understand why you would want the name of someone who has denied you and treated you so badly.
I simply donít understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.
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  #1778  
Old 09-11-2020, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
*If* she gets everything she wants, how would her title be?
HRH Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg of Belgium? It feels ridiculous to even type it, but I want to have a clear image of it.
HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium, (Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha).

The titles in parentheses are legal, but even in official documents they are never used. The part in bold is considered the legal surname and is similarly never used; instead, the title "of Belgium" is used as the equivalent of a surname at school, work, etc.

Examples of the usage of royal titles and surnames are linked in the Titles and Styles of the Belgian Royal Family thread.



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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
It seems people would accept it if she (still) just wanted "of Saxe Coburg", but now she apparently wants HRH etc she should have moved on years ago?

I don't think she should get it (especially not any money from the Belgian tax payer) but I don't necessarily see where there's such a huge line morally speaking or "now I think she's just doing it for the wrong reasons" between theoretically getting a title and not. Especially when other shenanigans with titles are par for the course in the royal/royal watching world and in the Belgian court acknowledging extinct Habsburg titles (yes I realise it's not exactly).

I do think even if she gets "HRH Princess Delphine of Belgium" it probably won't make her happy as such, but I can see why she might feel justified in wanting it. Assuming this isn't some bound to backfire power play.
I think her stated feeling of not wanting to be treated as less important than her (half-)siblings is justified, though I think it is contradictory with the realities of a hereditary monarchy where Astrid and Laurent are treated as less important than Philippe because the latter is the eldest son. However, there are significant differences between taking the surname and taking the funds from taxpayers, titles, etc. The right to take the name of a legally recognized parent is enjoyed by any other individual in the same situation, and she has been candid throughout the process about her desired name. On the other hand, the right to take the noble titles of her parent (which Belgian law reserves to legitimate male-line children) and the right to receive payments from the civil list (which Belgian law reserves to senior royals) are not enjoyed by any other individual in the same situation, and Mrs. BoŽl had repeatedly denied that she wanted to pursue them.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by crm2317 View Post
I simply donít understand why you would want the name of someone who has denied you and treated you so badly.
I simply donít understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.
I don't understand the relevance of your response.
  #1779  
Old 09-11-2020, 05:13 PM
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I simply donít understand why you would conceive a child in love and then deny her and treat her so badly.


That has no relevance to my point.

I was simply saying that I believe if I was in her shoes, I wouldnít want to carry the name of someone who treated me so terribly .
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  #1780  
Old 09-11-2020, 06:35 PM
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Because he's her father. I don't entirely agree with the woman but I think she has a right to be angry and hurt and it has probably made her embittered.
Not the case for every child mistreated by their father. I have my mother's surname rather than my father's surname and I'm happy I don't bear the surname of the man who refuses to acknowledge my existence.
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