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  #1721  
Old 08-20-2020, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Still, her subsequent response does not alter the preceding actions of then-Prince Albert.

Even if Prince Laurent had hypothetically been the biological son of another man, his legitimacy as Albert's son would not be in question as there was no question of the legal validity of Prince Albert and Princess Paola's marriage at the time of Laurent's birth and none of the parties had initiated a contestation of paternity in court.

I don't think anyone was choosing to question the legality of it, but it's not an ideal situation for Laurent, Paola, or Albert. Couldn't it have affected his place in the line of succession?

Quote:
But even on Mrs. BoŽl's own account, it was a bank's list of "politically exposed" persons, not a terrorist watch list.
"Politically exposed" apparently meant "together with criminals and suspected terrorists" so if it's not a terrorist watch list per se, the legal and social consequences are still obviously not desirable. At all. And I refuse to believe Albert was unaware of this matter. He doesn't have to have been responsible, but he could have easily ameliorated this, had he chosen to do so.
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  #1722  
Old 08-22-2020, 02:40 AM
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I dont think that gossip about Laurent would be desirable but there is often gossip about the paternity of royal children.
I dont know if Paola had affairs but my understanding was that while Albert had definitely been unfaithful she had not gone unconsoled.. but I don't know. However, if she and Albert had a reconciliation, which appears to be the case, I think that she ought to have taken on board the fact that he DID father a child in one of his affairs and that while P might not like it, that child was always going to be there and was not responsible for what had happened and deserved at least a little civility from her father..
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  #1723  
Old 08-22-2020, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I dont think that gossip about Laurent would be desirable but there is often gossip about the paternity of royal children.
I dont know if Paola had affairs but my understanding was that while Albert had definitely been unfaithful she had not gone unconsoled.. but I don't know. However, if she and Albert had a reconciliation, which appears to be the case, I think that she ought to have taken on board the fact that he DID father a child in one of his affairs and that while P might not like it, that child was always going to be there and was not responsible for what had happened and deserved at least a little civility from her father..
The child DID receive civility from Albert for 30 years. Maybe not the ideal situation some posters would like to see. But who says life is perfect? C'est la vie.

Delphine's mother committed adultery. Delphine's father committed adultery. The fruit of their affair was born inside the marriage of Delphine's mother with one of the richest men of Belgium.

And that man did accept Delphine as his only child born in his marriage, with that Delphine was from day one jonkvrouw Delphine BoŽl, living in one of Belgium's most affluent enclaves. Her natural parents have kept contact in an agreement. Her natural father visited her, vice versa. Maybe not the ideal situation some posters would like to see. But who says life is perfect? C'est la vie.

Keyword here is: discretion. Delphine was born with more chances and opportunities in life than her half-siblings whom all were restricted into a royal mould. Some of them clearly never found happiness and substance in that life (Laurent), while Philippe had no any choice at all than to follow a path in which every route was lined out for him.

It all worked for this ultra-privileged demoiselle from Uccle. And it was destroyed by herself by going out full public, like an elephant in a porcelain cabinet, without any understanding or consideration for both her legal and natural parents, their family lives and the institution of the monarchy (she mocks in any "artist" work from her hand). It is really not so difficult why it hopelessly derailed and she herself is the key person in the mess she herself made of her privileged life.
  #1724  
Old 08-22-2020, 03:45 AM
maria-olivia's Avatar
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Why Mario Danneels published it just before Prince Philippe's Wedding ?
Dephine lived in London.
Why all these Provocation Paintings since the beginning?
Why no discretion from her and her Mother Baroness Sybille .
Excellent post from Duc et Pair.
  #1725  
Old 08-22-2020, 04:00 AM
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I love it when royal men cant keep their -- in their pants, and then it is their natural children who get the bad wrap for wanting to be recognized.

See the same thing with Prince Carlos, Duke of Parma and his treatment of his natural son. Many royal watchers giving him a pass because 'well he didn't want a kid and the mother refused an abortion so he isn't required to care'.

Delphine didn't conceive herself. It isn't her fault neither of her parents could honor their wedding vows. Maybe she hasn't handled it greatly, okay she hasn't, but she has been spurned by her so called father for decades. If he had manned up and admitted he was her father, and not dragged this for years, it would not have been such a mess. But his royal ego got in the way. If he didn't want to leave her money, I am sure he could have found a way around with most of his assets with time to go to his other kids.

Yeah Delphine was better off without him. No argument. Her stepfather is far richer then Albert could ever hope to be, and she was his only legal child. But sometimes its more about being acknowledged and less about money.
  #1726  
Old 08-22-2020, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Why Mario Danneels published it just before Prince Philippe's Wedding ?
Dephine lived in London.
Why all these Provocation Paintings since the beginning?
Why no discretion from her and her Mother Baroness Sybille .
Excellent post from Duc et Pair.

Ask Mario Danneels about it.

So Delphine and her mother should have kept quiet and agreed that King Albert did not want to know anything about it anymore only because a writer had an unhappy timing publishing it?
That is what I call victim-blaming and I find it ridiculous and disgusting. The days when royalty and highly respected institutions and people were holy (and some seem stuck in those times) are over, long gone.

Be a man (or woman) and own up to what you did. Ignoring does not make something unpleasant (and rather unexpected in this case) go away.

Some opinions are truly appalling to me.

This is my last post here for now, the story will be continued though.
  #1727  
Old 08-22-2020, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
Ask Mario Danneels about it.

So Delphine and her mother should have kept quiet and agreed that King Albert did not want to know anything about it anymore only because a writer had an unhappy timing publishing it?
That is what I call victim-blaming and I find it ridiculous and disgusting. The days when royalty and highly respected institutions and people were holy (and some seem stuck in those times) are over, long gone.

Be a man (or woman) and own up to what you did. Ignoring does not make something unpleasant (and rather unexpected in this case) go away.

Some opinions are truly appalling to me.

This is my last post here for now, the story will be continued though.
I, too, call it victim blaming, and it both astonishes and appalls me.
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  #1728  
Old 08-22-2020, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It all worked for this ultra-privileged demoiselle from Uccle. And it was destroyed by herself by going out full public...
Quite often one finds stories in tabloids about adopted kids, which did not let it go, but tried everything to find their biological parents.

Luckily for the most us, we are knowing, where we are from (hopefully!), so, we don't know how to feel in the shoes of folks, which do not know the truth.

We don't know, what adds up there and what really drives them. Is it the idea of a different life with completely different chances? Is it a late teenager rebellion against the authorities? Who knows, I am not a psychologist...

But to blame these folks, is a bit too easy, I fear...
  #1729  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:32 AM
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According to Wim Dehandschutter, Delphine will now be considered one of Albert's legal children and will be able to claim her inheritance when he passes away, he and his lawyers will no longer fight the paternity claim on court.

https://twitter.com/WDehandschutter/...39976112099334

The big mystery (according to him) is which surname is she going to adopt? She cannot use BoŽl anymore due to the ruling, so WD is wondering if she's going to take "De Belgique" or "Saxe-Coburg" (as a nod to the old German family roots).
  #1730  
Old 09-10-2020, 12:49 PM
eya eya is offline
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"Delphine BoŽl wants to adopt the family name Saxe-Coburg. Her lawyers announced this after the last hearing before the Brussels court of appeal in the lawsuit against King Albert. Saxe-Coburg refers to the German roots of the Belgian royal family."

"Delphine BoŽl wants "exactly the same privileges, titles and capacities as her two brothers and her sister," her lawyer stated after the final hearing in the lawsuit against King Albert. Note word usage: "brothers and sister" (Filip, Astrid, Laurent), not "half-brothers and -sister"."


https://twitter.com/WDehandschutter/...069890/photo/1

https://twitter.com/WDehandschutter/...761027/photo/1


Deplhine in the hearing today

https://www.rexfeatures.com/livefeed...ial,_brussels?
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  #1731  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:00 PM
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Hmm, I suppose that King Albert's biological recognition did set something in motion with her concerning her wanted last name and titles.......
So her goal is apparently HRH Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg, I think? Now, with the biological admission already there, she wants the complete package, it seems. Wanting is one, granting is two and I'm not sure how I feel about this. It does seem a change of attitude.

I thought she only wanted the legal recognition and the last name, then I suppose that I was wrong and Mbruno was right about this.

Anyway, I understand that the court will pronounce the verdict within a month. So we'll see.

But in any case/way: this whole trial is over now.
  #1732  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leidi View Post
According to Wim Dehandschutter, Delphine will now be considered one of Albert's legal children and will be able to claim her inheritance when he passes away, he and his lawyers will no longer fight the paternity claim on court.

https://twitter.com/WDehandschutter/...39976112099334
The court hearing where Delphine BoŽl requested a declaration of paternity was held today, but the court has not delivered its ruling as of now.

I don't think the ruling is expected to be delivered immediately. Until then, Delphine is not considered Albert's legal child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by leidi View Post
The big mystery (according to him) is which surname is she going to adopt? She cannot use BoŽl anymore due to the ruling, so WD is wondering if she's going to take "De Belgique" or "Saxe-Coburg" (as a nod to the old German family roots).
He is mistaken.

Firstly, the ruling confirming that Jacques BoŽl was not the legal father of Delphine was already delivered this past December. (It was discussed in this thread here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2273915)

Secondly, it is Delphine's own wish to be rid of the BoŽl name. The Civil Code protects her legal right to keep it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The FPS also summarizes the Civil Code provisions dealing with the surnames of adults whose parentage is legally changed by a court judgment. (These laws will eventually have jurisdiction over the surname of Delphine BoŽl, a Belgian, if, as is expected, she becomes the legal child of King Albert II as a result of the forthcoming court session in September 2020.)

Familienaam toekennen | Federale Overheidsdienst Justitie
Attribution du nom de famille | Service public federal Justice


Changed parentage

[...] If the parentage of an adult child is modified as the result of an action to dispute the parentage, the family name may be modified only with his or her consent. In the judgment, the judge takes note of the new surname chosen by the adult child from the legally available options.
As indicated in Article 335, ß 4, of the Civil Code, the legally available options for a new surname (if the adult child chooses not to keep her or his current surname) are the same options which are available to parents naming their firstborn child: the legal father's surname, the legal mother's surname, or a combination of both.

Finally, as explained in the above summary, Delphine will be restricted to four name options once she is recognized as King Albert's legal child. These will be to continue bearing the BoŽl surname, to adopt the surname of her mother, to adopt the surname of her father, or to adopt a combination of her parents' surnames. Her lawyers have confirmed that her choice will be her father's surname.

It follows that whether she becomes "of Belgium" or "of Saxe-Coburg" will be dependent on which one the court considers to be Albert's legal surname.

Over the last few years, the Royal Court and the lawyers for both parties have all expressed the view that "of Saxe-Coburg" is the legal surname. The sources are posted in the this thread: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2186636



Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
"Delphine BoŽl wants "exactly the same privileges, titles and capacities as her two brothers and her sister," her lawyer stated after the final hearing in the lawsuit against King Albert. Note word usage: "brothers and sister" (Filip, Astrid, Laurent), not "half-brothers and -sister"."


https://twitter.com/WDehandschutter/...069890/photo/1

https://twitter.com/WDehandschutter/...761027/photo/1
That represents a reversal of her views, as she has taken the opposite position in the past - although as Mbruno pointed out, the comments earlier this year hinted at this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
So her goal is apparently HRH Princess Delphine of Saxe-Coburg, I think? Now, with the biological admission already there, she wants the complete package, it seems. Wanting is one, granting is two and I'm not sure how I feel about this. It does seem a change of attitude.
"The same titles as her two brothers and sister" would be HRH Princess Delphine, Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. The part that I have bolded would be considered the surname.
  #1733  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eya View Post
"Delphine BoŽl wants "exactly the same privileges, titles and capacities as her two brothers and her sister," her lawyer stated after the final hearing in the lawsuit against King Albert. Note word usage: "brothers and sister" (Filip, Astrid, Laurent), not "half-brothers and -sister"."
I think it's a bluff. The odds of her becoming HRH Princess are still extremely slim. It's taking an extreme stance to increase the odds of getting whatever you want more moderately.

But that's my opinion, and I guess we'll see.
  #1734  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
I think it's a bluff. The odds of her becoming HRH Princess are still extremely slim. It's taking an extreme stance to increase the odds of getting whatever you want more moderately.

But that's my opinion, and I guess we'll see.
The odds that the court will eventually declare her to be King Albert's legal child are close to being assured, now that Albert has withdrawn from opposing her request. Once his paternity becomes legal, her rights under the Civil Code to claim his surname and a share of his inheritance will be incontestable. Is there something else you have in mind where her odds would be lower?
  #1735  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The odds that the court will eventually declare her to be King Albert's legal child are close to being assured, now that Albert has withdrawn from opposing her request. Once his paternity becomes legal, her rights under the Civil Code to claim his surname and a share of his inheritance will be incontestable. Is there something else you have in mind where her odds would be lower?
Being HRH Princess Delphine. Belgian law and eliminating legitimate/illegitimate doesn't apply to the succession or determine titles, does it?

It seems to me that suddenly expecting "everything" Philippe, Astrid and Laurent have, just because she's about to become their legal sister, is a bit unreasonable. (She's entitled to the piece of the estate and the name change, that's all. We've known that for months.)

My guess is that she is making an outsized demand so as to be able to bargain down to whatever she really wants. Also there's a good chance Albert/his lawyers knew her lawyer was going to say this, especially if it's been rumored in the background.
  #1736  
Old 09-10-2020, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Being HRH Princess Delphine. Belgian law and eliminating legitimate/illegitimate doesn't apply to the succession or determine titles, does it?
According to the ministry of foreign affairs, the general rule for nobility is legitimate direct descent (in the male line) indeed. That is one more reason why her request surprises me.

https://diplomatie.belgium.be/en/ser...s/nobility/faq


9. I believe that I am the descendant of a noble ancestor. Am I eligible for a recognition of nobility? What are the conditions?

If the applicants consider themselves to be the legitimate direct descendent, in the male line, of an ancestor who belonged to the nobility in our regions until the end of the 'Ancien Rťgime' (i.e. until the abolition of the nobility in the French era) or who was officially a member of the nobility in his country of origin, they may lodge an application for recognition of nobility. The application must also be addressed to the King or to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. The same applies to applications to restore nobility, i.e. if the nobility had already been lost by derogation prior to 1795.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
It seems to me that suddenly expecting "everything" Philippe, Astrid and Laurent have, just because she's about to become their legal sister, is a bit unreasonable. (She's entitled to the piece of the estate and the name change, that's all. We've known that for months.)

My guess is that she is making an outsized demand so as to be able to bargain down to whatever she really wants. Also there's a good chance Albert/his lawyers knew her lawyer was going to say this, especially if it's been rumored in the background.
I meant to ask what she might want to bargain down to, since, as you point out, no bargaining is needed for her to receive the share of the estate and the name change.
  #1737  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:10 PM
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Hmm, well I'd always thought well of her for saying she didn't want the royal trappings but just to know who her father is....why the sudden change? Or was this her plans all along?
  #1738  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:49 PM
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I find this a rather unreasonable request. Although one can only speculate why on earth she wants to use the last name of a father she has been battling with for nearly 2 decades -would her mother's name not be more logical- to be expected to be made a princess of Belgium is a whole other level. I can't imagine she will be made HRH Princess of Belgium but if she is, what will be the next step? Claiming a right to a dotation [since 1993], as Astrid and Laurent?

Luckily for the court she will not hold these proceedings against her own sibling(s). But who knows what will happen in the future.

What a colossal mistake mess King Albert has made out of this.
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  #1739  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:16 PM
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I think not even the grandchildren of Astrid and Laurent would be HRH due to the latest laws and Delphine wants to be recognized as one?

I get she wants the recognition of paternity, it's basically a human right but she's being completely unreasonable now.

The worst part is that this might end up falling on Philippe's plate, which would make it very difficult for him: if he doesn't recognize his sister, he'd look like a douche in the public eye, if he does then it would cause further conflict with his parents and other members of his family.

As Marengo says, what a mess Albert made of this.
  #1740  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:21 PM
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Would the fact that she married a commoner (and without permission) have any bearing on her rights to hold a royal title? I realize that the marriage came before the paternity suit, but I wonder if it would offer a "loophole" for the family refusing to grant her a title.
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