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  #1641  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:28 PM
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Somewhere back at the beginning of this thread according to Delphine, her last conversation with Albert was something along the lines of him denying paternity, then her saying "everybody says I have Queen Astrid's eyes" and him saying "Never say you look like my mother! Never say that!"

Presumably His Majesty meant 'how dare you' or perhaps 'stop saying that', unless he was in a rage of denial at that moment.

Anyway, that's an exceptionally terrible and hurtful (and untrue...) thing to say. So 21 years later, here we are, and perhaps Albert now has to acknowledge poetic justice. That might be worth it.
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  #1642  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
You are right about that, I used the wrong word. He was her legal father. Brain meltdown due to heat and autism



Where did you read that she was led to believe that she will become Princess of Belgium? Do you have a source?

If her lawyers are indeed planning to file a petition for a title as reported, it is not far-fetched to assume that they have persuaded their client that she has a chance of getting it.

On the other hand, Albert's lawyers would not have commented on how they are planning to resist any claim on a royal title if they did not expect that issue to be brought before the Court in September.


As I said, I believe the hearing will prove in due course that Delphine has been eyeing a royal title all along. If not, I will admit my perception was wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Delphine is still not Albert's legal daughter. She will be one of the beneficiaries from his estate once there is a legal paternity. All what was owned and given to others before the legal paternity is no longer part of Albert's estate.

So, what you are saying is that, if Albert transfers all of his assets to Paola and his children before he is legally recognized as Delphine's father, then Delphine basically gets nothing? That makes sense.


If Jacques BoŽl is indeed worth close to 1 billion as was mentioned by another poster, then I am pretty sure Albert is not nearly as rich. However, in any case, I would not speculate about Albert's actual net worth as nobody knows that for sure.


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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Somewhere back at the beginning of this thread according to Delphine, her last conversation with Albert was something along the lines of him denying paternity, then her saying "everybody says I have Queen Astrid's eyes" and him saying "Never say you look like my mother! Never say that!"

Presumably His Majesty meant 'how dare you' or perhaps 'stop saying that', unless he was in a rage of denial at that moment.

I was not privy to the conversation, but if it unfolded as you described it, it seems to me that his reaction was more along the lines of "how dare you". Queen Astrid is a bit like an iconic figure in Belgium (a kind of a Belgian "Diana", but with different history/circumstances).
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  #1643  
Old 08-14-2020, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Somewhere back at the beginning of this thread according to Delphine, her last conversation with Albert was something along the lines of him denying paternity, then her saying "everybody says I have Queen Astrid's eyes" and him saying "Never say you look like my mother! Never say that!"

Presumably His Majesty meant 'how dare you' or perhaps 'stop saying that', unless he was in a rage of denial at that moment.

Anyway, that's an exceptionally terrible and hurtful (and untrue...) thing to say. So 21 years later, here we are, and perhaps Albert now has to acknowledge poetic justice. That might be worth it.
How can we judge or nail someone on words, laid in his/her mouth? You never can take things for granted in a poisonous family affair, I know by professionnal experience.

And IF (if...) Delphine said these words: the King lost his mother at the age of one. Even he can not have any own memory about his mother. Let alone a lady born 33 years after his mother's death. IF (if...) these words indeed were said into King Albert's face, saying she looks so much like his mother, whom he himself does not even personally remember, that is the ultimate and utmost unhelpful remark to derail any of their relationship which was left.

But once again: these are words reportedly uttered by Delphine and an alleged reaction from the King, acting like stung by a wasp. But we never know how close to truth it is.
  #1644  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
How can we judge or nail someone on words, laid in his/her mouth? You never can take things for granted in a poisonous family affair, I know by professionnal experience.

And IF (if...) Delphine said these words: the King lost his mother at the age of one. Even he can not have any own memory about his mother. Let alone a lady born 33 years after his mother's death. IF (if...) these words indeed were said into King Albert's face, saying she looks so much like his mother, whom he himself does not even personally remember, that is the ultimate and utmost unhelpful remark to derail any of their relationship which was left.

But once again: these are words reportedly uttered by Delphine and an alleged reaction from the King, acting like stung by a wasp. But we never know how close to truth it is.
Of course we can't know if it's true, but having one party report a conversation is a closer source than we usually get in all royal matters.

I'm very sorry for the infant Albert who lost his mother. But he had 31 years to get used to the idea of Delphine as his. And she does look strikingly like Queen Astrid, to the point that other people who never met and can't remember Her Majesty (like a good chunk of this thread) must have remarked on it.

I take Delphine's account as true (enough) because we do know Albert subsequently refused all contact with her, and this would seem to provide something of an explanation and enough hurt and anger for why. This version of their last conversation is worse than the ordinary account of it, simply telling her she wasn't his daughter and never to bother him again.

I'm not sorry for the grown man denying reality, his own child, and not only himself as a parent to her, but even a connection to her heritage. It's cruel.

Besides ó even if Delphine's recollection is a lie? Albert still behaved like a jackass for two decades. So he would have even less excuse.
  #1645  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:32 PM
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It wasn't for the money, as she lost an enormous amount of money by formally giving up her ties to her richer former-official-father. So, she might have wanted the 'name' but money cannot have been the motive.
At the time Delphine BoŽl sued to break ties with her then legal father in 2013, she could not have counted upon getting King Albert's name even assuming she were to win legal recognition as his daughter. The legal right to take the name of the new father was established after a Constitutional Court ruling of April 2017.

I wonder why she made the decision to retain the name BoŽl for the time being. It was her legal right to change it from BoŽl to de Sťlys Longchamps (her mother's name) once it was definitively established that Jacques BoŽl was no longer her legal father. She perhaps was confident that she would win the paternity case and would only need to tolerate being named BoŽl for a few more years at the most.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
If her lawyers are indeed planning to file a petition for a title as reported, [...]
Has that been reported somewhere? It wasn't in the articles which were posted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On the other hand, Albert's lawyers would not have commented on how they are planning to resist any claim on a royal title if they did not expect that issue to be brought before the Court in September.
It could be that King Albert is the one who believes Delphine might seek a title and has instructed his lawyers to bring the issue before the court to preempt any future attempt.
  #1646  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:33 PM
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I guess Delphine was trying to 'proof' to Albert that denying was useless because 'everybody says she looks like her (iconic) grandmother'... So, even if he would deny it, the proof of resemblance was there.
  #1647  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
At the time Delphine BoŽl sued to break ties with her then legal father in 2013, she could not have counted upon getting King Albert's name even assuming she were to win legal recognition as his daughter. The legal right to take the name of the new father was established after a Constitutional Court ruling of April 2017.

I wonder why she made the decision to retain the name BoŽl for the time being. It was her legal right to change it from BoŽl to de Sťlys Longchamps (her mother's name) once it was definitively established that Jacques BoŽl was no longer her legal father. She perhaps was confident that she would win the paternity case and would only need to tolerate being named BoŽl for a few more years at the most.


It could be that King Albert is the one who believes Delphine might seek a title and has instructed his lawyers to bring the issue before the court to preempt any future attempt.
We still don't know why the Constitutional Court decided to rule for her. :) I imagine it's some combination of national interest and human rights, but someone who reads French or Dutch will have to get a look at that ruling.

My understanding is these days (and for quite some time) she prefers to simply be known as "Delphine". I think it's more for relief than practicing to be a princess.
  #1648  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
We still don't know why the Constitutional Court decided to rule for her. :) I imagine it's some combination of national interest and human rights, but someone who reads French or Dutch will have to get a look at that ruling.
Delphine wasn't involved in the father's-name court case. The ruling can be read in French here and in Dutch here.
  #1649  
Old 08-14-2020, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Delphine wasn't involved in the father's-name court case. The ruling can be read in French here and in Dutch here.
Thanks; I meant the one which eliminated statute of limitations on paternity claims. I will have to see if my French is up to it.
  #1650  
Old 08-14-2020, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Thanks; I meant the one which eliminated statute of limitations on paternity claims. I will have to see if my French is up to it.
I believe this is the one. Please let me know your thoughts after you have read it.
  #1651  
Old 08-14-2020, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Of

I take Delphine's account as true (enough) because we do know Albert subsequently refused all contact with her, and this would seem to provide something of an explanation and enough hurt and anger for why. This version of their last conversation is worse than the ordinary account of it, simply telling her she wasn't his daughter and never to bother him again.

I'm not sorry for the grown man denying reality, his own child, and not only himself as a parent to her, but even a connection to her heritage. It's cruel.

Besides ó even if Delphine's recollection is a lie? Albert still behaved like a jackass for two decades. So he would have even less excuse.
I dont think there is the slightest chance of Delphine becoming a princess.....a nd I doubt if she's looking for it..
I think she's deeply hurt that he was a father to her for a time and then so brutally turned on her..
  #1652  
Old 08-14-2020, 09:11 PM
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The child he pushed away and denied is more like the mother he lost than anybody else in the world. That's the poetic justice.

Albert's had 21 years to realize it. I hope he finally does.
  #1653  
Old 08-14-2020, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
The child he pushed away and denied is more like the mother he lost than anybody else in the world. That's the poetic justice.

Albert's had 21 years to realize it. I hope he finally does.
I do think he's been very petty. He knew she was his daughter, If he didn't want a daughter who was a reminder of members of his family, or whose existence upset his wife, he could have not had an affair. Or at least made sure he didn't have children from it,.
And while I can understand his wife being upset, she knows that Delphine is his daughter, Denying it wont make it any less true.. and she has a right to some recognition from her father...
  #1654  
Old 08-15-2020, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
The child he pushed away and denied is more like the mother he lost than anybody else in the world. That's the poetic justice.

Albert's had 21 years to realize it. I hope he finally does.
Delphine knew that Prince Albert, later King Albert, was her father. She knew she comes from an extramarital affair, in which both her mother as her father broke their marriage vows. Prince Albert, later King Albert, maintained a relationship with her. There are pictures of Albert visiting his daughter etc.

Things only went downhill after the revelation that she was a child of him. When she wanted to go out and about with the fact, it was Albert whom ended all contacts with her. Some say this is mainly fed by a fierce Queen Paola seeing public recognition as an ultimate insult to her, the Queen, an Italian Princess as well a willingly attempt to damage the monarchy.

But the point is: it never was a mystery to Delphine who her father was. Her point was that you and me should know as well that Albert is her father. That she has had a totally carefree life, without any perks from kingship, politics or media, as daughter of one of Belgium's wealthiest men: that is shoven aside.

It is not that she crawled around, for decades: "Who is my secret father?" She knew it all the way. And she wanted you and me to know this too. Collateral damage to Jacques BoŽl, to Sybille, to King Albert, Queen Paola and the monarchy (which is always under pressure in Belgium) were of no any hindrance to her.This collision course attitude caused all this.
  #1655  
Old 08-15-2020, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
T

It wasn't for the money, as she lost an enormous amount of money by formally giving up her ties to her richer former-official-father. So, she might have wanted the 'name' but money cannot have been the motive.

Let's put things into perspective though when it comes to the Belgian RF's finances.



King Leopold II was supposed to be privately very wealthy, but he transferred his assets to the Royal Donation Trust to prevent them from being divided among his daughters who were married to foreign princes. The Trust itself is said to be worth 850 million euros according to Wikipedia, which is almost the combined value of the Duchy of Lancaster's and the Duchy of Cornwall's estates. So it is not an insignificant amount.



True, the Royal Donation is a public trust (it is not privately owned by the RF), but it operates independently of the Belgian government and the RF, or rather the King of the Belgians and his successors (?) retain the right of disposal. So the RF, on top of getting a generous income from the civil list voted by Parliament to cover their personal and official expenses, can also benefit from the assets in the trust, including the various residences that are at their disposal.


I don't think Delphine is naÔve enough to believe that she will become a princess of Belgium and, on top of that, will get state funding like working royals or a royal residence. Getting a title is not actually that far-fetched even for an illegitimate daughter (Belgian courts have been unpredictable before), but the rest is of course beyond even the realm of fantasy.


Maybe Delphine thought that, being acknowledged as Albert's daughter and carrying his name, even if it is only Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, could open doors for her (professionally, I mean) or even promote her as an artist. But I agree that it doesn't look like she would have much to gain to compensate losing the BoŽl inheritance unless she became a full-fledged HRH with a place in the line of succession, which is still very unlikely.
  #1656  
Old 08-15-2020, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Let's put things into perspective though when it comes to the Belgian RF's finances.



King Leopold II was supposed to be privately very wealthy, but he transferred his assets to the Royal Donation Trust to prevent them from being divided among his daughters who were married to foreign princes. The Trust itself is said to be worth 850 million euros according to Wikipedia, which is almost the combined value of the Duchy of Lancaster's and the Duchy of Cornwall's estates. So it is not an insignificant amount.



True, the Royal Donation is a public trust (it is not privately owned by the RF), but it operates independently of the Belgian government and the RF, or rather the King of the Belgians and his successors (?) retain the right of disposal. So the RF, on top of getting a generous sum from the civil list voted by Parliament to cover their personal and official expenses, can also benefit from the assets in the trust, including the various residences that are at their disposal.


I don't think Delphine is naÔve enough to believe that she will become a princess of Belgium and, on top of that, will get state funding like working royals or a royal residence. Getting a title is not actually that far-fetched even for an illegitimate daughter (Belgian courts have been unpredictable before), but the rest is of course beyond even the realm of fantasy.


Maybe Delphine thought that, being acknowledged as Albert's daughter and carrying his name, even if it is only Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, could open doors for her (professionally, I mean) or even promote her as an artist. But I agree that it doesn't look like she would have much to gain to compensate losing the BoŽl inheritance unless she became a full-fledged HRH with a place in the line of succession, which is still very unlikely.
So, it seems you agree that 'money' cannot have been her primary motive. She had a very secure enormous inheritance and because of her desire for recognition instead of public denial from her father gave that all up for an unknown inheritance most likely resulting in far less money - still a considerable amount OR nothing at all if king Albert would die before he is officially recognized as her father.
  #1657  
Old 08-15-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Maybe Delphine thought that, being acknowledged as Albert's daughter and carrying his name, even if it is only Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, could open doors for her (professionally, I mean) or even promote her as an artist. But I agree that it doesn't look like she would have much to gain to compensate losing the BoŽl inheritance unless she became a full-fledged HRH with a place in the line of succession, which is still very unlikely.
The Belgian family was/is not Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, since Leopold I was Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. Probably why they've only ever used "Saxe-Coburg".
  #1658  
Old 08-15-2020, 12:24 PM
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The Belgian family was/is not Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, since Leopold I was Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. Probably why they've only ever used "Saxe-Coburg".

In 1831 he had become a Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha like all other members of the Ducal Family also those the Kohary line who where not decendants of the Duke of Saxe-Gotha.
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  #1659  
Old 08-15-2020, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Delphine knew that Prince Albert, later King Albert, was her father. She knew she comes from an extramarital affair, in which both her mother as her father broke their marriage vows. Prince Albert, later King Albert, maintained a relationship with her. There are pictures of Albert visiting his daughter etc.

Things only went downhill after the revelation that she was a child of him. When she wanted to go out and about with the fact, it was Albert whom ended all contacts with her. Some say this is mainly fed by a fierce Queen Paola seeing public recognition as an ultimate insult to her, the Queen, an Italian Princess as well a willingly attempt to damage the monarchy.

But the point is: it never was a mystery to Delphine who her father was. Her point was that you and me should know as well that Albert is her father. That she has had a totally carefree life, without any perks from kingship, politics or media, as daughter of one of Belgium's wealthiest men: that is shoven aside.

It is not that she crawled around, for decades: "Who is my secret father?" She knew it all the way. And she wanted you and me to know this too. Collateral damage to King Albert, Queen Paola and the monarchy (which is always under pressure in Belgium) were of no any hindrance to her.This collision course attitude caused all this.
Ah, and it seems that you think that this should have been enough for her. I get the idea that you would have settled for it and can't understand why she didn't.
The things you mentioned are not holy for everyone. She just wants her roots validated.

As for my second bolded part: you blame Delphine for this situation? Blaming the victim. King Albert fathered her, he did the damage to the monarchy if you want to put it that way. Delphine did not ask to be conceived.
King Albert brought this onto himself with those years of ignoring her.
  #1660  
Old 08-15-2020, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Maybe Delphine thought that, being acknowledged as Albert's daughter and carrying his name, even if it is only Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, could open doors for her (professionally, I mean) or even promote her as an artist.
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
The Belgian family was/is not Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, since Leopold I was Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld. Probably why they've only ever used "Saxe-Coburg".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
In 1831 he had become a Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha like all other members of the Ducal Family also those the Kohary line who where not decendants of the Duke of Saxe-Gotha.

The Princes of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld became Princes of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in 1826 because the head of the Coburg line (eldest brother of Prince Leopold) ceded Saalfeld to another duke and received Gotha in exchange.

The royal descendants in male line of King Leopold I, except those born after 1921, used Princess/Prince of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha in their documents (for examples, see my recent posts in the Titles and Styles thread).

However, for whatever reason, the Belgian Royal Family considers "of Saxe-Coburg" to be the name of their House. The Constitution of Belgium styles King Leopold I with the surname "of Saxe-Coburg", no "Gotha":


Art. 85

De grondwettelijke macht van de Koning gaat bij erfopvolging over op de natuurlijke en wettige nakomelingschap, in de rechte lijn, van Z.M. Leopold, Joris, Christiaan, Frederik van Saksen-Coburg en volgens eerstgeboorterecht.

Art. 85

Les pouvoirs constitutionnels du Roi sont hťrťditaires dans la descendance directe, naturelle et lťgitime de S.M. Lťopold, Georges, Chrťtien, Frťdťric de Saxe-Cobourg, par ordre de primogťniture.

Article 85

The constitutional powers of the King are hereditary through the direct, natural and legitimate descent from H.M. Leopold, George, Christian, Frederick of Saxe-Coburg, by order of primogeniture.


I wonder if it due to Leopold only being "of Gotha" for five years when he ascended the Belgian throne.
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