Prime Ministers, and the constitutional role of the Norwegian Monarch

[Muhler]

I actually meant sacrosanct as in a religious authority, akin to an ayatollah or an archbishop but higher, in regards to the having the ultimate say in the general direction the state church is going.
And in the fact that the Monarch as the head of the church being only answerable to God, cannot be questioned. I.e. he is hellig/sacrosanct.
Being answerable only to God, makes him per definition sacred, and as an authority, sacrosanct.

Difficult to explain actually!

But since the Monarch is no longer the head of the state church, he can hardly be hellig/sacrosanct in the religious-authority definition of the term.
So it makes sense to abolish that.


-----


What is happening right now?!?
When I make one shift, i.e. go down one line here, the post ends up with the text having gone down two lines.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Originally Posted by Muhler

I actually meant sacrosanct as in a religious authority, akin to an ayatollah or an archbishop but higher, in regards to the having the ultimate say in the general direction the state church is going.

Yes, I know. - And that's what I was responding to.

Originally Posted by Muhler

And in the fact that the Monarch as the head of the church being only answerable to God, cannot be questioned. I.e. he is hellig/sacrosanct.
Being answerable only to God, makes him per definition sacred, and as an authority, sacrosanct.

Difficult to explain actually!

Article 13 in the Danish constitution states:
''The King shall not be answerable for his actions; his person shall be sacrosanct. The Ministers shall be responsible for the conduct of government; their responsibility shall be defined by statute.''

Article 5 in the Norwegian constitution states:
From 1814 to 2018:
''The King's person is sacred; he cannot be censured or accused. The responsibility rests with his Council''.

From 2018:
"The King's person cannot be censured or accused. The responsibility rests with his Council."

So as one can see, the Norwegian monarch still cannot be questioned, so not a big change.

Originally Posted by Muhler

But since the Monarch is no longer the head of the state church, he can hardly be hellig/sacrosanct in the religious-authority definition of the term.
So it makes sense to abolish that.

Exactly! But as I wrote in post 40 (for those who doesn't go back in the thread), the monarch was from 2012 to 2018, according to Article 5 in the constitution, still described as ''sacred'' without being the head of the church, but that was (as I also wrote) just because the MPs hadn't changed it yet.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

I received some more messages about this ''sacred'' thing. - So this is basically an response to those, and to a post from Muhler yesterday evening, which he later deleted (but he kindly gave me permission to use the quote below).

--------------------

Originally Posted by Muhler

Oh, I did go back and read.

It's just that I can't get my head around what the word "hellig" means in this context.

The church can easily label someone sacred, without that person having a direct authority over the church. See saints and the Catholic church.
In which case labeling the King sacred is sort of honorary and as such need not be removed.
But if the King has authority than "hellig" means sacrosanct, because he has authority and in principle is only answerable to God in regards to the state church, in which case it's actually necessary to strip him of that label.

Oh, my head!

Well, I think your head is just fine, but this is starting to get a bit complicated, I think.

Article 5 from 1814 to 2012, when the monarch was the constitutional head of the Norwegian State Church:
''The King's person is sacred; he cannot be censured or accused. The responsibility rests with his Council.''

What did this mean? Well, as the constitutional head of the Norwegian State Church, the monarch was considered ''sacred'' (hellig) by the Norwegian constitution, and therefore couldn't be censured or accused by anyone, other than god.

Did the Church of Norway consider the monarch in the same way as the Norwegian constitution? Well, since the church was under the state, they had to automatically consider the monarch in the same way, although it was not written down anywhere that they did.

--------------------

Article 5 from 2012 to 2018, when the monarch was no longer the constitutional head of the Norwegian Church (not a state church anymore either):
''The King's person is sacred; he cannot be censured or accused. The responsibility rests with his Council.''

What did this mean?
That the monarch was considered ''sacred'' (hellig) by the Norwegian constitution, and therefore couldn't be censured or accused by anyone, other than god, despite not being the constitutional head of the Norwegian Church.

Did the Church of Norway consider the monarch in the same way as the Norwegian constitution? Well, since the church was no longer under the state (or the head of state), they didn't need to automatically consider the monarch in the same way anymore. - And since it was not written down anywhere that they did, then we must assume that they didn't.

--------------------

Article 5 from 2012 to 2018:
"The King's person cannot be censured or accused. The responsibility rests with his Council."

What does this mean?
That the monarch cannot be censured or accused by anyone (perhaps not even God).

[Muhler]

My head still hurts!



Okay, the King is no longer sacred and that's probably better or I'll have a mental implosion.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Yes, and as you can see from the post, now the King cannot be censured or accused by anyone, not even by God (so lucky him).

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Thorvald Stoltenberg, Labour politician, former Minister of Defence, Minister of Foreign Affairs, Diplomat, Ambassador, Peace broker and President of the Norwegian Red Cross, died on July 13th at the age of 87 after a short illness.

About him (I won't go into his political achievements on this forum, but rather focus on some of his MANY personal qualities):
He was an amazing guy, admired, liked and respected on both sides of the political spectrum (even by the populists in the Right-winged Progress Party) - and polled the most admired person in Norway after the King, some years ago.

Known for:
*His extremely good people skills. - He hugged almost everyone he met in the streets and stuff.
*His kindness and friendliness to others. - He made himself available to everyone, and ordinary people called him daily for advice and comfort, something that made him very happy and which he regarded as a great honor.
*His struggle for the weak in society, strengthened by his late daughter Nini Stoltenberg's drug use. - He is described by many (including drug addicts and people working for them) as the Norwegian who has done the most in this field.
But as a political commentator said the day he died, Thorvald's best quality was that he was so pro at being a good person, it was nothing negative to say about him.
He was also a master in making everyone feel like they were the most important person in the world (an ability only a few others have).

About his famous kitchen table:
Well, that table in his large apartment in Oslo’s Frogner district was nearly as important as the man himself. It served as a gathering point when he gathered politicians, state leaders and others around it, most notably Nelson Mandela. - He was among the many invited home to eat breakfast with Thorvald, and admitted he wasn’t particularly fond of Stoltenberg’s breakfast staple of mackerel in tomato sauce (an iconic part of Norwegian eating habits since the 1950s).
The kitchen table (I will say the breakfasts, rather than the table) has been described by the media as Thorvald Stoltenberg’s ''personal weapon'' when it came to dealing with all these people.

Fatherhood:
His daughter and first child, Camilla Stoltenberg (Director-General of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health) has described him as a kind-hearted, hands-on father who took his children with him on many of his work-related travels.
His son and second child, Jens Stoltenberg (Secretary General of NATO and former Prime Minister of Norway) has described him as an amazing father and his best friend, but perhaps a bit too much hands-on. - Because he called his children every day (and they him), and he always wanted to know if the Smoke detectors worked and if they used bicycle helmets or not, even though his children were now over 50 (it was the same with his adult grandchildren).
His late daughter and youngest child, Nini Stoltenberg (Norwegian television personality) has described him as a caring and kind father, who never gave up on her.

Death:
Although it was very hard for him to lose his wife of 55 years Karin Stoltenberg (Norwegian politician and champion of women’s rights) in 2012 at the age of 80 after a short illness, and his daughter Nini Stoltenberg in 2014 at the age of 51, due to various illnesses caused by her drug use. - He found the love again with the 9 years younger Anja Breien (Norwegian film director and screenwriter), the same year (2014).
He had a fall in 2015 and had to use a walking stick after that, but he kept it going with giving lectures around the country, writing books and giving television/newspaper-interviews until May 2018, when cancer was discovered.
Then it went very fast, something which made him sad, because he wanted to live as long as his father Emil Stoltenberg (a well-known military man) who died at the age of 98 in 1998.

He died at home in his famous apartment in Oslo on July 13th, where he had lived for decades, surrounded by his family - including his two surviving children.
Jens BTW had to rush home from the NATO summit in Brussels to take farewell with him (a summit that Thorvald had insisted on his son to attend.

Media reactions to his death:
NRK and TV2 News Channel startet sending special news at 15:00, right after we got the news from the Labour Party. - And all Norwegian News websites had it as their main story with several articles each.
It totally dominated the media here (completely overshadowed QEII's meeting with Trump) and he (Thorvald) got all the front pages for himself the day after.
The tributes started pouring in from politicians, celebrities and people/families who helps/work with drug users & the weak in society, etc.
And people were already calling for statues and stuff at the moment he died.

I have not seen anything like this in Norway since the death of actress, humanitarian, gay rights supporter and national icon, Wenche Foss at the age of 93 in 2011.

Funeral:
He's not getting a funeral with government honour at state expense. - An honor usually given to leading statesmen, politicians, soldiers and, in rare cases, cultural workers as writers, actors, composers and athletes.
Why is he not? Well, most of the politicians who've received it have either been former Prime Ministers or former Presidents of the Storthing, and the current government has been much stricter on who that gets it, or not.

But it will be a large-scale live-televised funeral (arranged by the Labour party) in Oslo Cathedral on August 2nd, so everyone can take farewell with ''Hele Norges Thorvald'' (The Whole Norway's Thorvald), as the media describes him to be (which he is).
The King, Queen, Princess Astrid, Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party, Erna Solberg and the two other party leaders in the government, Minister of Finance and leader of the Progress Party, Siv Jensen & Minister of Culture and Leader of the Liberal Party, Trine Skei Grande will be in attendance.
We are also hearing that former Secretary-General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan will be present.

So, there is no doubt that this will be the biggest funeral Norway has seen since the funeral of Wenche Foss (the actress, I mentioned above) in 2011.

--------------------

BTW, If you want to read about his political positions, one can do it here: Thorvald Stoltenberg - Wikipedia

[Muhler]

Thank you, Royal Norway.

A pity he doesn't get a state funeral, but at least he will be honored by high and low and not least the NRF.
I suppose you will give us a summary of the funeral? (Nudge, nudge...)

[marian]

Was Mr Stolerberg a member of the Bilderberg club?

[ROYAL NORWAY]

To the poster who asked me in the thanks button whether ''a funeral with government honour at state expense is the same as a state funeral?''
No, a funeral of state expense is paid, but not arranged by the state. - While a state funeral, who includes a ceremonial military procession and a lying in state, is both paid and arranged by the state.

And as I said in a previous post here, there have been only 4 state funerals in Norway since the independence from Sweden in 1905:

*The State Funeral of Queen Maud in 1938.

*The State Funeral of Crown Princess Märtha in 1954.

*The State Funeral of King Haakon VII in 1957.

*The State Funeral of King Olav V in 1991.

--------------------

Originally Posted by Muhler

Thank you, Royal Norway.

(1)A pity he doesn't get a state funeral, but at least he will be honored by high and low and not least the NRF.
I suppose you will give us a (2)summary of the funeral? (Nudge, nudge...)

You're welcome!

1. Yes, but this funeral will actually be a great deal grander than some of the previous ''state expense'' funerals, both in terms of royal/political attendance and ceremony.
And a state funeral is (as I mentioned above) only given to the monarch/consort, with the exception of CP Märtha, who was Norway's first lady and the Consort in all but name when she died.
2. Yes, I think I'll write something, especially if I don't find a good English article that I can post instead then.

--------------------

Originally Posted by marian

Was Mr Stolerberg a member of the Bilderberg club?

Well, he was a participant in the 1973 and 1982 meetings, as international secretary of the Norwegian Confederation of Trade Unions. - And in 1994 and 1995, as special representative of the UN Secretary-General for the former Yugoslavia.
Several other politicians and other prominent Norwegians have also attended these meetings, even CP Harald in 1984 & CP Haakon in 2011.

--------------------

Anyway, now I have to mention two more things with Thorvald:

1. And this is to Muhler (perhaps you already know): He was Norway's ambassador to DK from 1996 to 1999, something that made him into a great ''Denmark lover'' (if we can call it that). He once said that Norway can learn a thing or two from the Danes in being happy. Well, we took the first place from them in the 2017 World Happiness Report, so mission completed. - But only for that year, since Finland took it from us this year.

2. And then to his most IMPORTANT quality (at least when it comes to this forum), he was a great monarchist, even defending the CP couple some years ago.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

The King, Queen and Princess Astrid have arrived at Oslo domkirke (Oslo Cathedral).

One can see the funeral live here: NRK live

I will come back with more later:

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

About him (I won't go into his political achievements on this forum, but rather focus on some of his MANY personal qualities):
He was an amazing guy, admired, liked and respected on both sides of the political spectrum (even by the populists in the Right-winged Progress Party) - and polled the most admired person in Norway after the King, some years ago.

Known for:
*His extremely good people skills. - He hugged almost everyone he met in the streets and stuff.
*His kindness and friendliness to others. - He made himself available to everyone, and ordinary people called him daily for advice and comfort, something that made him very happy and which he regarded as a great honor.
*His struggle for the weak in society, strengthened by his late daughter Nini Stoltenberg's drug use. - He is described by many (including drug addicts and people working for them) as the Norwegian who has done the most in this field.
But as a political commentator said the day he died, Thorvald's best quality was that he was so pro at being a good person, it was nothing negative to say about him.
He was also a master in making everyone feel like they were the most important person in the world (an ability only a few others have).

[...]

I have not seen anything like this in Norway since the death of actress, humanitarian, gay rights supporter and national icon, Wenche Foss at the age of 93 in 2011.

Funeral:
He's not getting a funeral with government honour at state expense. - An honor usually given to leading statesmen, politicians, soldiers and, in rare cases, cultural workers as writers, actors, composers and athletes.
Why is he not? Well, most of the politicians who've received it have either been former Prime Ministers or former Presidents of the Storthing, and the current government has been much stricter on who that gets it, or not.

But it will be a large-scale live-televised funeral (arranged by the Labour party) in Oslo Cathedral on August 2nd, so everyone can take farewell with ''Hele Norges Thorvald'' (The Whole Norway's Thorvald), as the media describes him to be (which he is).

Thank you for the exploration of his personal qualities. You have given similar explanations in relation to the reasons why King Harald is beloved in Norway, and that is enlightening in regards to the qualities that are perceived as most admirable in the culture of Norway.

[polyesco]

some pictures of the King and Queen and princess
https://ap.mnocdn.no/images/a2e3d504...op&q=80&w=2048
https://bt.mnocdn.no/images/b69be64f...rop&q=80&w=980
https://dbstatic.no/70067685.jpg?ima...024&height=615

[marian]

I hope that he can rest in peace

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Thank you for the exploration of his personal qualities. You have given similar explanations in relation to the reasons why King Harald is beloved in Norway, and that is enlightening in regards to the qualities that are perceived as most admirable in the culture of Norway.

You're welcome!

Yes, but I think these qualities are perceived as "admirable" in most countries, at least I hope so.

--------------------

Here's a brief summary of the funeral:

The funeral service at Oslo Cathedral:
The service was conducted by priest Sturla Stålsett, who has worked with Thorvald on many social issues, especially during his time as general secretary of the Church City Mission (a diaconal foundation in Norway doing social work within alcohol/drug care, etc) from 2006 to 2014.
He is the son of the 83-year-old theologican, politician and former Oslo bishop, Gunnar Stålsett (who also atended the funeral).

Both Stålsett (in his sermon), Thorvald's two surviving children, Camilla & Jens; former Prime Minister and Director-General of the World Health Organization, Gro Harlem Brundtland; leader of the Labour Party, Jonas Gahr Støre; and three of his closest personal friends (in their speeches) described the warm and caring man I talked about in the above post. - While his granddaughter and singer, Catharina Stoltenberg (daughter of Jens) & culture worker, singer and former Minister of Culture for the Labour party, Åse Kleveland, performed songs.

In addition to these people and those mentioned in post 46, the funeral was also attended by the 89-year-old former Prime Minister for the Conservative Party, Kåre Willoch, who (as Thorvald) is respected on both sides of the political spectrum here; former Prime Minister for the Christian Democratic Party, Kjell Magne Bondevik and a number of other prominent politicians, cultural workers, social workers and journalists, etc.

--------------------

The memorial reception at ''Samfunnssalen'' (the community hall) in Oslo, owned by the largest and most influential association within the Labour Party, ''Oslo Arbeidersamfunn'' (Oslo Workers community), to which Thorvald was a member and former leader of:
The program was led by Åse Kleveland, while two of his grandsons, some diplomat friends, & long-time drug user, activist and founder and leader of The Norwegian Association for Humane Drug Policies, Arild Knutsen, held speeches.
Knutsen has repeatedly said that Thorvald saved his life.

--------------------

Here are some Norwegian articles about the funeral (really worth a read):

Funeral and memorial for Thorvald Stoltenberg:
Bisettelse og minnesamvær for Thorvald Stoltenberg - NRK - translation

Thorvald Stoltenberg's funeral in Oslo Cathedral - was hailed with speeches and song:
Thorvald Stoltenberg bisatt i Oslo Domkirke – ble hyllet med taler og sang - TV2 - translation

There is no doubt that Thorvald Stoltenberg saved my life:
Det er ingen tvil om at Thorvald Stoltenberg reddet livet mitt - TV2 - translation

As you know from my previous posts, I can't put up translations on VG articles, so use your owns:

Jens Stoltenberg remembers his father: ''Also, a Secretary-General in NATO needs comfort from his dad''
Jens Stoltenberg minnes faren: – Også en generalsekretær i NATO trenger trøst fra pappaen sin - VG

Former drug addict: ''He was very proud of me. I'm going to stay clean'':
Tidligere rusmisbruker: - Han var veldig stolt av meg. Jeg skal holde meg rusfri - VG

--------------------

The television-coverage:
NRK2 sent the funeral service live from 12:45 to 14:30, while TV2 News Channel sent live from both the funeral service and the memorial reception from 12:30 to 17:30.

See the Funeral servive here: Thorvald Stoltenberg bisettes - NRK

--------------------

Originally Posted by polyesco

some pictures of the King and Queen and princess
https://ap.mnocdn.no/images/a2e3d504...op&q=80&w=2048
https://bt.mnocdn.no/images/b69be64f...rop&q=80&w=980
https://dbstatic.no/70067685.jpg?ima...024&height=615

Thanks polyesco!

Both the King and Princess Astrid walked very well into the cathedral, so we must assume that the summer break has done them some good.
See the royals arrive at 12:50 in the NRK video above.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Well, the political soap opera in Norway continues.

On Monday, The King granted The Prime Minister an extraordinary audience at 12:45.
He then presided over an extraordinary Council of State at the Royal Palace at 13:00, where he honourably discharged Per Sandberg (MP for the Progress Party from 1997 to 2017 and the party's first deputy leader since 2006) as Minister of Fisheries - and appointed Tor Mikkel Wara (MP for the Progress Party from 1997 to 2017 and the party's parliamentary leader from 2013 to 2017) as his replacement.
The King then signed a Royal Decree to this effect.

Why? Well, the newly separated Per Sandberg (58) went on a summer holiday trip to Iran in July with his 30 years younger new Iranian-born girlfriend, Bahareh Letnes (28).
And in connection with that, he broke 3 ministerial rules:
1. He didn't informe the Prime Minister’s office about the trip.
2. He didn't informe his own ministry about the trip.
3. He brought his work phone with him.
Breaking one (or in his case all) of these 3 rules is a breach of Norwegian security policy.

He also wrote on facebook that Iran might be one of the most misunderstood countries in the world.

Did he resign voluntarily? Well, both yes and now.
He informed Erna Solberg (Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party) and Siv Jensen (Minister of Finance and leader of the Progress Party) that he wanted to resign last week. - But hadn't he done that, he would most likely have been forced out, anyway. - Why?
1. As I mentioned above, he violated Norwegian security policy.
2. His phone could have been hacked by Iran.
Did it happen? We don't know yet.
Will PST (the Norwegian Police Security Service) inform the public about it? Probably not.
Why? Due to national security.
3. He lost support among his own MPs who have never hidden the fact that they don't approve of brutal dictatorships.
(So it should therefore have occurred to him that his comments about Iran was going to get them pretty pissed, but as usual he didn't think before he spoke, or in this case wrote.)

What would've happened if Erna, Siv and the Progress Party had continued to support him? Well, that could have led the opposition parties to put forward a motion of no confidence against him (or even against the government as a whole). And there have been sources from within the Christian Democratic Party that they could have supported it, which would have led to the fall of the government.

So why did he do it? Well, when it comes to rule 1 & 2, it has to do with his separation from his second wife, Line Miriam Sandberg, who's also a top Progress Party politician and serves as a state secretary in the health ministry. Newspaper Adresseavisen reported that she had alerted the the Prime Minister's Office as early as May that allegedly ''foreign powers'' had moved in with her ex-husband after he became romantically involved with Bahareh Letnes.
(This was denied by prime minister Erna Solberg, who said her office was notified about the relationship in June, and that security measures was taken.)

That reportedly prompted Sandberg to also send a complaint to the Prime Minister's Office that his ex-wife had wrongly leaked information from his private calendar, also to people outside the government system.
(This was denied by Sandberg during a joint press conference with PM Solberg.)

And on Saturday, Per Sandberg's 34-year-old daughter (Charlotte Kjær Sandberg) from his first marriage told TV2 that her father had been forced to change his initial summer holiday plans to travel to Turkey because Line Miriam Sandberg allegedly had leaked them. He and Letnes then decided to travel to Iran instead, with Sandberg opting against informing the Prime Minister's office because he feared his ex-wife would leak those plans, too. Both Sandberg and Letnes ended up making their holiday highly public themselves, however, by publishing photos of themselves on social media while still in Iran.

But there is much more to this story, one can read about it in several Norway Today articles in this link

And if you want to read more about Sandberg's resignation and Nesvik's appointment, one can do it here

--------------------

And now to his role in the Progress Party:

He also resigned as the party's first deputy leader.
Why? Due to the stuff mentioned above, he didn't have that much of a choice.

Who will take over? That will be decided at the annual party conference in May next year, but I'm pretty sure that it will be the controversial MP Sylvi Listhaug, who lost her government ministerial position in March when she accused the Labour Party of putting the interests of terrorists above national security, prompting a majority in the Storting to lose confidence in her.

What will this mean for the government? Well, although Sandberg belongs to the same populist conservative wing of the party as Listhaug, he was always loyal to Siv Jensen and the government project, while she cares most about her own position in the party.

There is also a possibility that she will be appointed as acting first deputy leader by the party's central board when they meet on September 3rd.
Something that will not make it easier for Erna & Siv to get the Christian Democratic Party to join the government.
Read about why in posts 19 to 30.

--------------------

Read more about the monarch's constitutional role, the political situation in Norway, changes of governments/ministers, the Right-winged Progress Party, Per Sandberg, Sylvi Listhaug, the Christian Democratic Party and the government in my previous posts.

[Muhler]

Thanks Royal Norway.

I read a little about in the DK press the other day.
What an amateur!

I have seen pics of Per Sandberg and while I'm sure he has many wonderful human qualities... - He does look very much like an average 58 year old...
And that a 28 year should fall for him is of course not impossible, and love can indeed be blind, but I'm sure she mainly fell for his personality.

I must confess, being a cynic, the word "honey-trap" has popped up in my mind. He wouldn't be the first to be the victim of such a plot.
Regardless, it was an amateurish and unnecessary exposure of a minister and at that age, and considering his relatively low position, I assume his political career is history?

- It's not the first time members of the Progress Party have goofed. I suspect it's a case of the party not completely having what we in DK brutally call: "Weeded out the village idiots" - before entering a government.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

Well, the political soap opera in Norway continues.
[...]

Why? Well, the newly separated Per Sandberg (58) went on a summer holiday trip to Iran in July with his 30 years younger new Iranian-born girlfriend, Bahareh Letnes (28).
And in connection with that, he broke 3 ministerial rules.
1. He didn't informe the Prime Minister’s office about the trip.
2. He didn't informe his own ministry about the trip.
3. He brought his work phone with him.
Breaking one (or in his case all) of these 3 rules is a breach of Norwegian security policy.

He also wrote on facebook that Iran might be one of the most misunderstood countries in the world.

Did he resign voluntarily? Well, both yes and now.
He informed Erna Solberg (Prime Minister and leader of the Conservative Party) and Siv Jensen (Minister of Finance and leader of the Progress Party) that he wanted to resign last week. - But hadn't he done that, he would most likely have been forced out, anyway. - Why?
1. As I mentioned above, he violated Norwegian security policy.
2. His phone could have been hacked by Iran.
Did it happen? We don't know yet.
Will PST (the Norwegian Police Security Service) inform the public about it? Probably not.
Why? Due to national security.
3. He lost support among his own MPs who have never hidden the fact that they don't approve of brutal dictatorships.
(So it should therefore have occurred to him that his comments about Iran was going to get them pretty pissed, but as usual he didn't think before he spoke, or in this case wrote.)

What would've happened if Erna, Siv and the Progress Party had continued to support him? Well, that could have led the opposition parties to put forward a motion of no confidence against him (or even against the government as a whole). And there have been sources from within the Christian Democratic Party that they could have supported it, which would have led to the fall of the government.

So why did he do it? Well, when it comes to rule 1 & 2, it has to do with his separation from his second wife, Line Miriam Sandberg, who's also a top Progress Party politician and serves as a state secretary in the health ministry. Newspaper Adresseavisen reported that she had alerted the the Prime Minister's Office as early as May that allegedly ''foreign powers'' had moved in with her ex-husband after he became romantically involved with Bahareh Letnes.
(This was denied by prime minister Erna Solberg, who said her office was notified about the relationship in June, and that security measures was taken.)

That reportedly prompted Sandberg to also send a complaint to the Prime Minister's Office that his ex-wife had wrongly leaked information from his private calendar, also to people outside the government system.
(This was denied by Sandberg during a joint press conference with PM Solberg.)

And on Saturday, Per Sandberg's 34-year-old daughter (Charlotte Kjær Sandberg) from his first marriage told TV2 that her father had been forced to change his initial summer holiday plans to travel to Turkey because Line Miriam Sandberg allegedly had leaked them. He and Letnes then decided to travel to Iran instead, with Sandberg opting against informing the Prime Minister's office because he feared his ex-wife would leak those plans, too. Both Sandberg and Letnes ended up making their holiday highly public themselves, however, by publishing photos of themselves on social media while still in Iran.

But there is much more to this story, one can read about it in several Norway Today articles in this link

And if you want to read more about Sandberg's resignation and Nesvik's appointment, one can do it here

--------------------
[...]

You were really not embellishing when you referred to this as a "soap opera". I suppose Sylvi Listhaug has become an exemplar in comparison.

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

You're welcome!

Yes, but I think these qualities are perceived as "admirable" in most countries, at least I hope so.

Not exactly. In some cultures, there remains a preference for representatives who provide grandeur and authority as opposed to availability to the public. (For example, Emperor Akihito of Japan's informal talks with citizens are viewed as bad form by many conservatives, and it would be altogether unacceptable if he hugged people in the streets.)

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

Here's a brief summary of the funeral:

The funeral service at Oslo Cathedral:
The service was conducted by priest Sturla Stålsett, who has worked with Thorvald on many social issues, especially during his time as general secretary of the Church City Mission (a diaconal foundation in Norway doing social work within alcohol/drug care, etc) from 2006 to 2014.
He is the son of the 83-year-old theologican, politician and former Oslo bishop, Gunnar Stålsett (who also atended the funeral).

Both Stålsett (in his sermon), Thorvald's two surviving children, Camilla & Jens; former Prime Minister and Director-General of the World Health Organization, Gro Harlem Brundtland; leader of the Labour Party, Jonas Gahr Støre; and three of his closest personal friends (in their speeches) described the warm and caring man I talked about in the above post. - While his granddaughter and singer, Catharina Stoltenberg (daughter of Jens) & culture worker, singer and former Minister of Culture for the Labour party, Åse Kleveland, performed songs.

In addition to these people and those mentioned in post 46, the funeral was also attended by the 89-year-old former Prime Minister for the Conservative Party, Kåre Willoch, who (as Thorvald) is respected on both sides of the political spectrum here; former Prime Minister for the Christian Democratic Party, Kjell Magne Bondevik and a number of other prominent politicians, cultural workers, social workers and journalists, etc.

--------------------

The memorial reception at ''Samfunnssalen'' (the community hall) in Oslo, owned by the largest and most influential association within the Labour Party, ''Oslo Arbeidersamfunn'' (Oslo Workers community), to which Thorvald was a member and former leader of:
The program was led by Åse Kleveland, while two of his grandsons, some diplomat friends, & long-time drug user, activist and founder and leader of The Norwegian Association for Humane Drug Policies, Arild Knutsen, held speeches.
Knutsen has repeatedly said that Thorvald saved his life.

Through the articles and many of your interesting posts, I glean that there is a conspicuous amount of close collaboration and social relationships between representatives of various areas in the Norwegian system (the monarchy, politics, journalism, culture, religion, and so on). Is that correct?

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Well, I had planned to respond to this yesterday, but as I've written before, better late than never.

Originally Posted by Muhler

Thanks Royal Norway.

I read a little about in the DK press the other day.
What an amateur!

I have seen pics of Per Sandberg and while I'm sure he has many wonderful human qualities... - He does look very much like an average 58 year old...
And that a 28 year should fall for him is of course not impossible, and love can indeed be blind, but I'm sure she mainly fell for his personality.

I must confess, being a cynic, the word (1)"honey-trap" has popped up in my mind. He wouldn't be the first to be the victim of such a plot.
Regardless, it was an amateurish and unnecessary exposure of a minister and at that age, and considering his relatively (2)low position, I assume (3)his political career is history?

- It's not the first time members of the Progress Party have goofed. I suspect it's a case of the party not completely having what we in DK brutally call: "Weeded out the village idiots" - before entering a government.

You're welcome!

1. I think that word has popped up in many people's minds (including mine), and several commentators have used the Norwegian version of it (''honningfelle'').
2. Fishing/seafood/aquaculture is one of Norway's major industries, and the Minister of Fisheries is therefore considered to be one of the most important positions in the government.
And the position as First Deputy Leader in the Progress Party is the second most important one in the party.
So this is actually a pretty big fall for him.
3. My answer to that is a BIG yes, especially since he didn't took reelection to the Storting last year.

--------------------

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

You were really not embellishing when you referred to this as a "soap opera". I suppose Sylvi Listhaug has become an exemplar in comparison.

And if you've read the articles I posted in the above post, you'll see that it's even more ridiculous than what I wanted to write here.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Not exactly. In some cultures, there remains a preference for representatives who provide grandeur and authority as opposed to availability to the public. (For example, Emperor Akihito of Japan's informal talks with citizens are viewed as bad form by many conservatives, and it would be altogether unacceptable if he hugged people in the streets.)

But you don't have to hug people on the street to have the qualities I talked about in my above posts. I.e. being kind, caring and warm. - And as I wrote in the quotation you posted, I think these qualities are perceived as "admirable" in most countries (including Japan).

Emperor Akihito: We are talking about a man here who radiates kindness and gentleness, who sits down on the floor with people after earthquakes, and who has made it his goal to bring the imperial family closer to the Japanese people.
I will almost go as far as to call him ''folksy'' (at least in contrast to some of the past/present European monarchs). - And with the exception of a small proportion of ultra-conservatives, I think most people in Japan appreciate it.

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Through the articles and many of your interesting posts, I glean that there is a conspicuous amount of close collaboration and social relationships between representatives of various areas in the Norwegian system (the monarchy, politics, journalism, culture, religion, and so on). Is that correct?

Let's take the monarchy first:

Close collaboration between representatives of the monarchy and politics?
No more than in other European, apolitical, constitutional monarchies, I think.
And then I don't talk about the monarch's constitutional role, because then I had written ''with the exception of Sweden.''

Social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and politics?
That's a big no-no for both royals and politicians. - And with the exeption of the CP couple being friends with several Labour politicans (which is a pretty big exception BTW), no.

Close collaboration between representatives of the monarchy and journalism?
Not more than what's usual in DK and Sweden, I think.

Social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and journalism?
No, that's again a big no-no.

Close collaboration between representatives of the monarchy and culture?
I think I can say a BIG YES to that. - Why?
1. There are several concerts inside the Royal Palace every year.
2. The court collaborates with a number of artists about the exhibitions in The Queen Sonja Art Stable.
3. The Queen's involvement in the arts and outdoor life, which has become a larger and larger part of her public role.
4. CP MM involvement in literature.
Etc, etc, etc, etc.

Social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and culture?
Well, with the Queen being into all the stuff mentioned above, she has of course met some people she's friendly with within those areas, but nothing more than that.
The CP couple OTOH are close friends with a bunch of actors, musicians and television personalities, etc.

Close collaboration and social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and religion?
The royals have visited various religious communities in Norway as part of their official roles, and MM is a devoted Christian, but I won't say that there is ''a conspicuous amount of close collaboration or social relationships'' between them.

Close collaboration between representatives of politics, journalism, culture and religion?
Well, Norway is a small country with a population of around 5.3 million, so of course there will be closer collaboration and social relations between the aforementioned areas in the Norwegian system than in a country with a larger population, but nothing more than what's common in other small western democratic countries, I think.

And let's go more into detail about some of the stuff mentioned in the quotation you posted from post 54:

Thorvald Stoltenberg:
He was a special person who had many friends from different parts of the Norwegian society, which is why there were so many cultural personalities represented in his funeral.

Theologian Gunnar Stålsett:
State secretary in the Ministry of Church Affairs and Education from 1972 to 1973.
Leader of the Centre Party from 1977 to 1979:
Bishop of Oslo from 1998 to 2005.
Member of the Norwegian Nobel Committee from 1985 to 1990 and from 1994 to 2002.
Deputy member from 1991 to 1994, 2003 to 2008 and from 2012-present.
Be aware that it was almost 20 years between him being active in politics and his appointment as bishop.

Culture worker, singer and activist Åse Kleveland:
Was appointed Minister of Culture for the Labour Party by Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland in 1990, and held this position until 1996.
And with the exception of Kleveland and actress Ellen Horn, every culture minister in Norway (since that position was created in 1981) have been what I will categorize as politicians.

This answer became a bit longer than I'd thought. Hope you get something out of it.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

2. Fishing/seafood/aquaculture is one of Norway's major industries, and the Minister of Fisheries is therefore considered to be one of the most important positions in the government.

It is nice to have you to call attention to facts of this kind. The security force presumably would argue that an important position requires even more scruplous dedication to security.

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

And if you've read the articles I posted in the above post, you'll see that it's even more ridiculous than what I wanted to write here.

That reply was written prior to reading the articles, but after reading them ... well, you were correct.

«Karma will bite you in the ass, be assured of that», was written in a text message from Minister of Fisheries, Per Sandberg (Progress Party) to Fiskeribladet’s editor Øystein Hage the night before Saturday. [...]

Secretary-General in the Norwegian Editor’s Association, Arne Jensen, says he can not assess the phrase «Karma will bite you in the ass, be assured of that», but it is still adamant that this is not acceptable from a cabinet minister.

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

But you don't have to hug people on the street to have the qualities I talked about in my above posts. I.e. being kind, caring and warm. - And as I wrote in the quotation you posted, I think these qualities are perceived as "admirable" in most countries (including Japan).

Emperor Akihito: We are talking about a man here who radiates kindness and gentleness, who sits down on the floor with people after earthquakes, and who has made it his goal to bring the imperial family closer to the Japanese people.
I will almost go as far as to call him ''folksy'' (at least in contrast to some of the past/present European monarchs). - And with the exception of a small proportion of ultra-conservatives, I think most people in Japan appreciate it.

Agreed, and I understand your meaning. Still, it's very much of interest that Norwegian society admires leaders who express their kindness, caring, etc. in an even folksier manner than even most democratic monarchs or presidents. While agreeing that the ultra-conservatives are a minority in Japan, Norway does not seem to hold any equivalent group of monarchists who worry over the monarchy becoming "too close" to the people (while such monarchists remain in other European monarchies, including Britain).

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

Let's take the monarchy first:

Close collaboration between representatives of the monarchy and politics?
No more than in other European, apolitical, constitutional monarchies, I think.
And then I don't talk about the monarch's constitutional role, because then I had written ''with the exception of Sweden.''

Social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and politics?
That's a big no-no for both royals and politicians. - And with the exeption of the CP couple being friends with several Labour politicans (which is a pretty big exception BTW), no.

Close collaboration between representatives of the monarchy and journalism?
Not more than what's usual in DK and Sweden, I think.

Social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and journalism?
No, that's again a big no-no.

Close collaboration between representatives of the monarchy and culture?
I think I can say a BIG YES to that. - Why?
1. There are several concerts inside the Royal Palace every year.
2. The court collaborates with a number of artists about the exhibitions in The Queen Sonja Art Stable.
3. The Queen's involvement in the arts and outdoor life, which has become a larger and larger part of her public role.
4. CP MM involvement in literature.
Etc, etc, etc, etc.

Social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and culture?
Well, with the Queen being into all the stuff mentioned above, she has of course met some people she's friendly with within those areas, but nothing more than that.
The CP couple OTOH are close friends with a bunch of actors, musicians and television personalities, etc.

Close collaboration and social relationships between representatives of the monarchy and religion?
The royals have visited various religious communities in Norway as part of their official roles, and MM is a devoted Christian, but I won't say that there is ''a conspicuous amount of close collaboration or social relationships'' between them.

Thank you for the well developed explanation!

Regarding the monarchy, I think it was owing to the mentions of courtiers who had prior employment with the government or political parties, combined with the Crown Prince couple's friendships, that I developed the feeling that the royal family was close to politicians to some extent. (And since the Crown Prince Couple includes half of the adult members of the Royal House, I'm not sure they can be seen as an exception, especially after Haakon succeeds to the throne.)

Interesting to learn that social relationships with journalists are likewise a no-no, which seems reasonable as there would be legitimate concerns about reporting slanted in favor of the royal family's views.

Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY

Close collaboration between representatives of politics, journalism, culture and religion?
Well, Norway is a small country with a population of around 5.3 million, so of course there will be closer collaboration and social relations between the aforementioned areas in the Norwegian system than in a country with a larger population, but nothing more than what's common in other small western democratic countries, I think.

And let's go more into detail about some of the stuff mentioned in the quotation you posted from post 54:

Thorvald Stoltenberg:
He was a special person who had many friends from different parts of the Norwegian society, which is why there were so many cultural personalities represented in his funeral.

Theologian Gunnar Stålsett:
State secretary in the Ministry of Church Affairs and Education from 1972 to 1973.
Leader of the Centre Party from 1977 to 1979:
Bishop of Oslo from 1998 to 2005.
Member of the Norwegian Nobel Committee from 1985 to 1990 and from 1994 to 2002.
Deputy member from 1991 to 1994, 2003 to 2008 and from 2012-present.
Be aware that it was almost 20 years between him being active in politics and his appointment as bishop.

Culture worker, singer and activist Åse Kleveland:
Was appointed Minister of Culture for the Labour Party by Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland in 1990, and held this position until 1996.
And with the exception of Kleveland and actress Ellen Horn, every culture minister in Norway (since that position was created in 1981) have been what I will categorize as politicians.

This answer became a bit longer than I'd thought. Hope you get something out of it.

I see, Thorvald Stoltenberg was particularly connected in Norwegian society. But reading articles about Norway does make one notice that it's apparently commonplace for representatives of different areas to become acquainted – which as you noted is expectable in a small country.

[ROYAL NORWAY]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

Thank you for the well developed explanation!

Regarding the monarchy, I think it was owing to the mentions of courtiers who had prior employment with the government or political parties, combined with the Crown Prince couple's friendships, that I developed the feeling that the royal family was close to politicians to some extent. (And since the Crown Prince Couple includes half of the adult members of the Royal House, I'm not sure they can be seen as an exception), especially after Haakon succeeds to the throne.

You're very welcome!

I meant in the 113-year-old history of Norway's independent monarchy. - Because neither King Haakon VII, King Olav V or the current Regent Couple were/are friends with politicians.
But as I wrote, it's a ''pretty big exception.''

--------------------

On Friday, there were changes in the government AGAIN:

The King presided over an ordinary Council of State at the Royal Palace at 13:00.
He honourably discharged Ketil Solvik-Olsen (MP for the Progress Party from 2005 to 2013 and the party's second deputy leader since 2013) as Minister of Transport and Communications - and appointed the Minister of Agriculture, Jon Georg Dale (MP for the Progress Party since 2017) as his replacement, while Bård Hoksrud (MP for the Progress Party since 2005 and State Secretary at the Ministry of Transport and Communications from 2013 to 2015) was appointed as the new Minister of Agriculture.
He also discharged Terje Søviknes (MP for the Progress Party from 1997 to 2001, the party's second deputy leader from 1999 to 2001 and Mayor of Os from 1999 to 2016) as Minister of Petroleum and Energy - and appointed Kjell-Børge Freiberg (MP for the Progress Party since 2017, State Secretary at the Ministry of Petroleum and Energy from 2015 to 2016 and Mayor of Hadsel from 2007 to 2015) as his replacement.
The King then signed a Royal Decree to this effect.

The outgoing ministers:

Ketil Solvik-Olsen: Serious, calm and part of the Progress Party's liberal wing - and therefore well-liked by the other non-socialist parties.
Resigned voluntarily to spend a year with his family in the US, where his wife was offered an attractive job at a children's hospital in Alabama. - But he's planning to join politics again next year.
Will he choose (or be forced) to resign as the party's second deputy leader as well? We don't know yet, but if he does, then it will be a big blow to Siv Jensen (Minister of Finance and leader of the Progress Party). - Why? Because it will mean that she has lost both of her deputies, also known as her two most loyal supporters in the Party, in less than a month (Per Sandberg being the other).

Terje Søviknes: Also part of the liberal wing of the party.
Resigned voluntarily to spend more time with his children, although it should be mentioned that he faces the possible reopening of an alleged rape of a 16-year-old girl in 2001, but both prime minister Erna Solberg, Siv Jensen and Søviknes insisted that this had nothing to do with his resignation.
He will now go back to being the Mayor of Os, a position, he only had leave from.

The New ministers:

Kjell-Børge Freiberg: Don't know that much about him, but I think we can describe him as more of a populist than those mentioned above.

Bård Hoksrud: Populist with a BIG P, jovial, down to earth and easy to like. - But not what I would describe as the sharpest knife in the drawer, especially not when he as a married man and an MP paid a prostitute for sex in Riga in 2011 (which became a criminal offense in Norway in 2009).

The ministers who changed position in the government:

Jon Georg Dale: Pragmatic, keen on cooperation and part of the Progress Party's liberal wing.
He is (along with Sylvi Listhaug) seen by many in the media as a potential successor to Siv Jensen as leader of the party.