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  #401  
Old 11-05-2017, 01:32 PM
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Would a simple ritual be their way of showing their disapproval or would foreign guests not be invited for an official ascension to the throne either? Or will that be a different ceremony?
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  #402  
Old 11-05-2017, 01:38 PM
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It feels like disaproval to me. But I am not familiar with Japanese customs, so this may be the normal way of things over there.
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Old 11-05-2017, 01:50 PM
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I don't think there really is a precedence in Japan.
AFAIK the last emperor to abdicate (or be abdicated) happened before the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1603. The Tokugawas isolated Japan as you after the Cristian rebellions in the 1630's, with only Nagasaki being open to foreigners.

And after Japan "was opened or rather deisolated" in the mid 1800's there hasn't been an abdication, so there is no precedence for international dignitaries attending an abdication ceremony and the following enthronement.
Apart from that I'm pretty sure the Japanese government is interested in keeping this as low key as at all possible. Being against much need other reforms, like females being able to inherit the throne, they will try and avoid a public debate which would likely be an almost certain outcome of a large-scale abdication ceremony.
Apart from that, many somewhat conservative minded Japanese may feel that the current Emperor has fallen short of his duty of not staying on the throne until he dies or at least is mentally or physically totally unable to fulfill his duties. It's not a disgrace as such, but shall we say rather a desertion of his duties, in the minds of such people.
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  #404  
Old 11-05-2017, 02:27 PM
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Of course, there is no precedent for the abdication but the abdication is also the start of the reign of a new emperor and there is certainly precedent for thst. So, how were previous enthronements carried out? And how will the start of Naruhito's reign compare to those (other than there not being a need for a mourning period).

For comparison, it might be helpful to think back to the Dutch abdication and subsequent investure ceremony. The abdication itself was only attended by government officials and vlose family members (with subsequent balcony appearance), the investure is what the foreign dignitaries and larger royal family and many others were invited to.

However, I have no idea whether abdication and investure in Japan will be as closely linked (carried out on the same day) and whether the 'keep it simple' would apply to both or only the abdication itself.
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  #405  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Of course, there is no precedent for the abdication but the abdication is also the start of the reign of a new emperor and there is certainly precedent for thst. So, how were previous enthronements carried out? And how will the start of Naruhito's reign compare to those (other than there not being a need for a mourning period).

For comparison, it might be helpful to think back to the Dutch abdication and subsequent investure ceremony. The abdication itself was only attended by government officials and vlose family members (with subsequent balcony appearance), the investure is what the foreign dignitaries and larger royal family and many others were invited to.

However, I have no idea whether abdication and investure in Japan will be as closely linked (carried out on the same day) and whether the 'keep it simple' would apply to both or only the abdication itself.
It might be helpful to think back to the Belgian (no international guests) and Spanish (no international guests) abdication.
Denmark also didn't invited guests to their queen's accession to the throne.
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  #406  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:18 PM
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Well, since the emperors where hidden away certainly after the mid 1500's and pretty much also after the year 1200, and perhaps before, I think an enthronement (in this case after an abdication) was always a very low-key affair.
I imagine it was attended by the most important daimyos and highest priesthood and that was about it. - The people, who mattered very little anyway, only needed to know that there was a semi-mythological (and as such semi-godlike) emperor somewhere. Being the living embodiment of Japan.
How, who, when and how elaborate really only mattered to those in power. - And the Shogun who footed the bill. Some being more, shall we say, tight-pursed than others...
So perhaps this low-key affair is very much in line with the genuine traditions of Japan?
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  #407  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post

Well, since the emperors where hidden away certainly after the mid 1500's and pretty much also after the year 1200, and perhaps before, I think an enthronement (in this case after an abdication) was always a very low-key affair.
I imagine it was attended by the most important daimyos and highest priesthood and that was about it. - The people, who mattered very little anyway, only needed to know that there was a semi-mythological (and as such semi-godlike) emperor somewhere. Being the living embodiment of Japan.
How, who, when and how elaborate really only mattered to those in power. - And the Shogun who footed the bill. Some being more, shall we say, tight-pursed than others...
So perhaps this low-key affair is very much in line with the genuine traditions of Japan?
As I understand most rituals usually are held behind close doors, only one short part is public.
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  #408  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:49 PM
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It might be helpful to think back to the Belgian (no international guests) and Spanish (no international guests) abdication.
Denmark also didn't invited guests to their queen's accession to the throne.
That is exactly why I did not consider them relevant for the comparison between the abdication and investure ceremony as in those cases it was clear-cut (if you don't invite for investure, it wouldn't make sense for abdication)

There is talk about probably not inviting foreign dignataries, so that suggests that it apparently hasn't been clear from the start; it clearly is an option to invite!

Looks like nobody remembers what happened when the current emperor ascended the throne. Will have to look it up myself, while the relations under the previous emperor were very different than under the current one, so, if foreign royals were invited at that time it would be weird not to do it now; if they weren't but other dignitaries were, a case could be made to invite them this time.
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  #409  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:55 PM
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You got a point. Will look forward to your findings.
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  #410  
Old 11-05-2017, 03:55 PM
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The enthronement of his present Majesty in 1990. At 8.30 TRH the Prince and Princess of Wales are seen..so there was certainly international representation on that occasion
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  #411  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:01 PM
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At least it seems like foreign royals were present for the enthronement of Akihito, ans it seems like a lavish banquet was held.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...apan-4721.html
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  #412  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:08 PM
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I think that should also be foreign royalty in the enthronement of Naruhito.
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  #413  
Old 11-05-2017, 04:36 PM
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The enthronement of Emperor Akihito was quiet a big affair and if i remember right 2 Galas Dinners where held. Among the foreign guests there i remember Queen Margrethe and Prince Henrik, King Baudouin and Queen Fabiola, Prince Charles and pricness Diana and many more european Royals where among the guests.
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  #414  
Old 11-05-2017, 05:15 PM
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Thanks for lookingnit up! Let's hope for the same at Naruhito's enthronement. It would be a little unfair if Naruhito was shortchanged because the government doesn't like his father's decision.

However, the ceremony would traditionally not be on the first day of the emperor's reign as that day would be uporedictable. So, the question is whether they would organize the abdication and enthronement on consecutive days (I don't expect them to do it on the same day as that might confuse the whole 'era' idea) or wait a few months with Naruhito's official enthtonement. No real reason to do so but who knows?!
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  #415  
Old 11-05-2017, 06:00 PM
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In 1975, a Mass of the Holy Spirit was celebrated in the church of San Jerónimo el Real in Madrid to inaugurate Juan Carlos I's reign. Felipe didn't follow this way.
Different times, different decisions.
Back in 1990 it was absolutely different political situation. For many people Akihito's father was a war criminal, protesters followed every Japan royals' visit.
Thus it was important to recieve international support for new Emperor.
Now only very radical groups express Anti-Japanese feelings. Akihito and Naruhito have good reputation on international scene. Akihito's abdication is an inner problem. In this circumstances there is no need to invite foreign guests, it's more important to reduse demage after abdication in Japanese society. They think that more national-oriented (no low-key) ceremony will help to achieve this goal. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong, but it's their decision.
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  #416  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:23 PM
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Japan considers simplifying emperor's abdication ceremony - Japan Today
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The government is considering simplifying the upcoming ceremony to mark the abdication of the Japanese emperor, as following ancient custom could be interpreted as going against the current Constitution.

In what will be Japan's first abdication since 1817, Emperor Akihito, 83, will pass the throne to his elder son Crown Prince Naruhito, 57. The succession is deemed most likely to take place in March 2019.

As Article 4 of the Constitution bans the emperor from having political power, government officials are concerned if the emperor's reasons for abdicating are read out by an agent following old ceremonial tradition, they could be taken as a proof that he is relinquishing the throne based on his own will, thus violating the supreme law.

"Simplifying the ceremony can clear the issue," said a government source.

[...]

The first recorded abdication ceremony for an emperor took place in the eighth century, and ceremonial practices continued until the ceremony for Emperor Kokaku 200 years ago, according to the government sources. In the ceremonies, an agent read out a message from the retiring emperor.

[...]

It has yet to be decided whether Japan will invite foreign dignitaries to the ceremony because Crown Prince Naruhito's enthronement ceremony is to take place soon after that.

Emperor Akihito's enthronement ceremony in November 1990 following the death of his father Hirohito in the previous year was attended by more than 2,000 guests, including overseas leaders and was a state occasion.
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  #417  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:58 PM
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It has yet to be decided whether Japan will invite foreign dignitaries to the ceremony because Crown Prince Naruhito's enthronement ceremony is to take place soon after that.

Emperor Akihito's enthronement ceremony in November 1990 following the death of his father Hirohito in the previous year was attended by more than 2,000 guests, including overseas leaders and was a state occasion.
This seems to indicate that Naruhito’s enthronement would be celebrated on a different day from the abdication and would be a grand celebration with foreign guests.
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  #418  
Old 11-21-2017, 10:51 AM
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Japanese emperor could abdicate either in March or April of 2019: sources- Nikkei Asian Review
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[...]

The new candidate date for closing the current Heisei era surfaced as the government decided to hold an Imperial House Council meeting on Dec. 1 to discuss the abdication date.

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe, who will chair the council meeting, visited the Imperial Palace on Tuesday afternoon where he is believed to have reported the planned convention of the gathering to the emperor, sources close to the matter said.

[…]

The government was leaning toward setting the date of the emperor's expected abdication on March 31, 2019, to pass the throne to Crown Prince Naruhito the next day.

But since unified local elections are expected to be held in March or April 2019, the idea to set the abdication date on April 30 to have the crown prince to succeed the throne the next day has also become a possible option, the sources said.

[…]
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  #419  
Old 11-22-2017, 11:56 AM
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End of April 2019 now deemed best time for Akihito to step aside: The Asahi Shimbun
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[...]

"After obtaining the opinion of the Imperial Household Council, we want to decide on a date as quickly as possible," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga told reporters Nov. 22 to announce that the council will meet at 9 a.m. on Dec. 1.

Suga, however, declined to discuss a likely date for the abdication. He also did not specify a timeline for choosing the name that will be adopted when Naruhito becomes emperor.

The Imperial Household Council will hear opinions on two candidate dates for the abdication: April 30, 2019, and March 31, 2019.

A number of high-ranking government officials said April 30 has emerged as the more likely candidate date.

Even though a transition on March 31 would allow Naruhito to become the new emperor on April 1, the start of a new fiscal year, concerns were raised because unified local elections are scheduled from late March through April.

Government officials had wanted a "quiet environment" in which to observe the first abdication by an emperor in 200 years.

[...]

In addition, the start of the fiscal year is often chosen by companies as a time for mass transfers of employees. The burden on local governments to handle the moves by those workers and their families under a new imperial era name was another reason for looking at another date.

[...]

At his Nov. 22 news conference, Suga said that Prince Fumihito, who is now one of the two representatives from the imperial household on the council, will be replaced for the Dec. 1 meeting by Prince Hitachi, the younger brother of Akihito who is presently a reserve member of the council.

The change is being made because any decision on the abdication date would also affect Fumihito as he would become "acting crown prince" [...]

A provision in the Imperial House Law prohibits the participation of anyone being part of meetings that could affect their interests.
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  #420  
Old 11-24-2017, 02:18 PM
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The IHA is moving ahead with plans for the Imperial couple to use Prince Takamatsu's former residence while renovating Togu Palace. The Takamatsu residence also needs repairs. The agency will incorporate expenses in the draft budget for next year, following the Imperial Household Council meeting on December 1st. Akasaka Dono House and Hayama Imperial Villa were considered but Prince Akishino, will need Akasaka Dono House (google translation: 赤坂東邸) to receive key visitors as "koshi" and Hayama Imperial Villa was deemed inconvenient.

Source: Sankei

Akasaka Dono House is a shared residence of the Imperial family, usually temporary. CP Naruhito moved there for independence in 1990. Later, the CP family used the residence during Togu Palace renovations in 1997-1998 and 2008-2009. Prince and Princess Takamado stayed for 2 years until the Takamado residence was completed in 1986.
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