Prince Henrik's Plans for his Final Resting Place: August 2017

[duchessrachel]

This whole situation makes me think about Prince Charles and Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall. No, I do not agree with the affair they had. Nevertheless, they are married now and rightfully she should be called the Princess of Wales, but out of deference to public opinion, she is not. When they married it was said that she would be called Princess Consort instead of Queen, which legally she will be anyway, again out of deference to public opinion. But it does not appear to bother her. She loves Prince Charles more than titles. This just makes me believe that Prince Henrick does not love Queen Margrethe as much as he loves titles and that he married her only to enhance his postion, which never became what he wanted.

 

[Bine221]

Just returned from holidays and I was totally shocked by the news - and about the behaviour of Prince Hendrik.
Reading through the entire thread I go with all posters and with the poll results that this is the worst "nail of the coffin" from all of his ego-minded behaviour until now (who knows what will come next???) and that all sympathy I ever had with him is totally gone now.
My prayers go with the Queen.

The only positive comment I can give: her final rest may be more peaceful alone than together with this low minded prat together in the coffin.

BYe Bine

 

[Thena]

We're often told that love is putting someone else's needs before your own.

In this situation, it's clear that Henrik doesn't want to put his wife's needs and his country before his own ego. Make of that what you will.

 

[Iain]

Queen Victoria had this to say on the subject

'It is a strange omission in our Constitution that while the wife of a King has the highest rank and dignity in the realm after her husband assigned to her by law, the husband of a Queen regnant is entirely ignored by the law.'

Victoria had apparently wanted Albert declared King but the Government wouldn't give it's approval because he was a foreigner. They obviously forgot all about George I.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Maybe Henrik would have been better off having married a Spanish princess. While the same procedure applies there, at least critizism has been voiced that men are being discriminated and a male consort could take his chances.
https://translate.google.de/transla...oria-corona-tres-201412191924.html&edit-text=
La Constitución también discrimina a los hombres

 

[Winnie]

That is correct. It's the monarch who has the final say in regards to titles in the DRF, or creating new noble titles.

Christian and Vincent are Counts of Montpezat, while Isabella and Josephine are Comtessas of Montpezat i.e. unmarried daughters of a count (Frederik).

The same thing applies to Joachim's children.

A Gallup poll has been published: Nu er danskerne trætte af prins Henrik: Du svigter Margrethe | BT Royale - www.bt.dk

1.008 have been asked.

75 % believe PH has let down his wife.

73 % believe PH should not be made king consort.

80 % believe PH has not been treated unfairly by not getting the title.

80 % believe PH directly harms his legacy.

There are a number of comments to the figures which I agree with, but I'll leave that, I believe you can interpret the figures for yourselves.

Thank you for sharing. The poll has shown the citizen's opinion. They are the only ones PH decision affects personally. I bet PH never in a million years thought this would be the outcome. How life and opinions on anything can change in only a few days. Interesting and sometimes very sad.

 

[MidwestMom]

other consorts were not Kings, Q Ann'es husband was not a king. Generally, the consort of a queen regnant, has been of lower status. if it bothered Henri, then really he shouldn't have married a queen.

It's possible that it didn't bother him at the time of the marriage, but developed over the years. It seems to have been a successful marriage, and with their mutual artistic interests, they have a lot in common. But I did read somewhere that there was some sort of issue in the early years of the marriage and QM admits that she didn't know how to help him as she should have.

There is a parallel with QEII in that they both became queens much sooner than they thought they would. They had young children, which were usually in the care of nannies, and family time was cut short. I do agree that Phillip, DOE has handled it much better than Henrik.

Who knows, after the dust has settled and PH has had some time to think it over, he may change his mind and consent to be buried with QM after all.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I find it strange especially because there is no precedent in other monarchies. It's not that Henrik is surrounded by King consorts who are making fun of him regarding how out of touch Denmark is.
And with the young Queen monarchs coming up (Leonor, Amalia, Victoria, Estelle etc) none of their husbands will become King consort. In case of change and with monarchies coming under scrutiny it will be rather the opposite, women consorts to be referred as Princesses.

 

[Mbruno]

I find it strange especially because there is no precedent in other monarchies.

There are several precedents. e.g.:

• Rudolph of France
• Philip I of Navarre
• Louis I of Naples
• Philip III of Navarre
• John I of Castile (as king jure uxoris of Portugal, disputed)
• Philip I of Castile
• Henry Stuart (as king consort of Scots)
• Antoine of Navarre
• Philip II of Spain (as king jure uxoris of England)
• Peter (Pedro) III of Portugal
• Ferdinand II of Portugal
• Francis , Duke of Cádiz (as king consort of Spain)
• etc.

In fact, the only reason why there aren't more examples of precedents is that reigning queens used to be rare. Several of the monarchies that now have to deal with this issue such as Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Sweden only allowed female succession to the throne in the second half of the 20th century. In fact, prior to 1850, Prince George of Denmark (as the husband of Queen Anne) and Prince Albert (as the husband of Queen Victoria) were exceptions in terms of not being called "king" rather than the rule and, in both cases, it was the parliament that instigated the denial of the title against the will of the reigning queens.

 

[wyevale]

There are several precedents.

NONE that could exactly be described as 'recent' !

 

[cepe]

I disagree with what Henrik has done. And I think there is much in what some have said about his relationship with Frederick (moving from father to subject) and maybe his mental health.

So I can imagine him thinking that he should have control over his own funeral.

And in that regard only, perhaps he has a point.

But he still a rude and insensitive man.

 

[polyesco]

We're often told that love is putting someone else's needs before your own.

In this situation, it's clear that Henrik doesn't want to put his wife's needs and his country before his own ego. Make of that what you will.

Right!
He has brought up this issue many times, and it's been firmly put down. Instead of moving on and privately letting his family know his wishes for burial. He has to bring it up again, one more time hurting his wife. And yes I do think this hurts the Queen immensely. Having the love of your life of over 50 years refusing to be buried with you. Putting the title issue above your marriage.

 

[Lee-Z]

There are several precedents. e.g.:

In fact, the only reason why there aren't more examples of precedents is that reigning queens used to be rare. Several of the monarchies that now have to deal with this issue such as Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Sweden only allowed female succession to the throne in the second half of the 20th century. In fact, prior to 1850, Prince George of Denmark (as the husband of Queen Anne) and Prince Albert (as the husband of Queen Victoria) were exceptions in terms of not being called "king" rather than the rule and, in both cases, it was the parliament that instigated the denial of the title against the will of the reigning queens.

The Netherlands has had three queen regnants in the 20th century and of each the husband was titled "prince", when P.Henrik married there were two queen regnants in europe (GB and NL), both their husbands were "prince".
It cannot have been a surprise to him...

That said, i agree with the posters who think that it's something that has gotten a bigger deal for him as he got older,...

 

[Osipi]

Right!
He has brought up this issue many times, and it's been firmly put down. Instead of moving on and privately letting his family know his wishes for burial. He has to bring it up again, one more time hurting his wife. And yes I do think this hurts the Queen immensely. Having the love of your life of over 50 years refusing to be buried with you. Putting the title issue above your marriage.

When we really think about it though. the marriage vows do state "until death do us part". Its not going against his marriage vows to Margrethe to wish to be buried elsewhere. He'll be dead and Margrethe will be single again albeit a widow. This is presuming he's the first to go.

I don't want to come across as being insensitive about this but my views are that once a person dies, they have gone home and the body left behind is just the shell. Perhaps Margrethe feels this way also and feels comfortable with Henrik's burial wishes? Its another way of looking at it.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is beyond doubt that Henrik names the elephant in the porcelain cabinet everyone is conveniently neglecting in this discussion, namely that his observation was right and female consorts are treated differently to male consorts.

Then there are three options:

- the dude has to shut up, it has always been this way, leave it as it is (but "it has always been this way" is countered with changes we see in gender-neutral successions, the acceptance of non-noble fellow countrymen marrying into the Royal House, the acceptance of certain religious denominations which were barred for succession, the acceptance of abdications in countries as Japan, Spain or the Holy See)

- the dude is right, it is strange that Mary, Mette-Marit, Máxima, etc. are "Her Majesty" and Queen, whereas Philip, Henri, Daniel are "just" HRH and a Prince, we have to make them "His Majesty" and "King" as well, equal is equal, period

- the dude is right, but it is not desireable that there is confusion about the titulature: the bearer of the Crown should have the unique title of King or Queen. All consorts, no matter male or female, are "HRH" and "Prince" ("Princess")

For so far the tendence is to keep it as it is, to accept that male consorts are lesser treated than female consorts. But in the foreseeable future we will possibly see a Queen of Norway, a Queen of Sweden, a Queen of the Netherlands, a Queen of the Belgians, a Queen of Spain and a Grand-Duchess of Luxembourg, all with a Prince and a HRH next to them, in contrast to the spouses of King George and King Christian.

As the successor of the coming Queen of Sweden is already known, the future Queen Estelle, and when other Queens have daughters as firstborns as well, this anomaly will only become a bigger elephant in the porcelain cabinet. So I dare to bet, posthumously Prince Henrik will get his equality in gender regarding royal spouses, but my prediction is that all consorts will become a Prince or Princess. This situation already occurs in Morocco: HM The King and HRH The Princess Lalla Salma, and officially occurs in the Netherlands where -officially- Máxima is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands (like Claus, Bernhard, Heinrich) but sadly the Government allowed "because of social custom where female spouses can be addressed with their husband's titles" that -by courtesy- Máxima is also known as "HM Queen Máxima" besides her official titles by law. A missed chance to set the precedence after the good example of Morocco! Just a case of wobbly knees in 2013 while the idea was accepted in 2002 (the modernized Dutch Royal House Act). Anyway, Henrik will get his gender equality, but different than he expects.

 

[wartenberg7]

he may be, or he may be getting a bit doolally and if he is, issues that he has always been annoyed about are now becoming more dramatic in his mind. He may have always wished to be buried in France but now as he has gotten older, it is becoming an obsession, and he feels perhaps angry enough with his wife (if they're not getting on well) to make it more public even if it embarrasses her and their family

He could dealt this far more intelligent, discreet and conscious; he could have stated officially how important it was to him to be buried in his native homeland, and not connecting the matter with that ridiculous "King-subject-thing" if he didn´t want to embarress his wife and the monarchy!
I wished he d pack his things tomorrow to live at Caix for good and let the danish royal family do their own business. They´re better off without him!

 

[camelot23ca]

It's possible that it didn't bother him at the time of the marriage, but developed over the years. It seems to have been a successful marriage, and with their mutual artistic interests, they have a lot in common. But I did read somewhere that there was some sort of issue in the early years of the marriage and QM admits that she didn't know how to help him as she should have.

There is a parallel with QEII in that they both became queens much sooner than they thought they would. They had young children, which were usually in the care of nannies, and family time was cut short. I do agree that Phillip, DOE has handled it much better than Henrik.

Who knows, after the dust has settled and PH has had some time to think it over, he may change his mind and consent to be buried with QM after all.

Even though I think Henrik has acted poorly in this situation, and I still think Margrethe is a wonderful queen, I'm trying to resist the devil/angel mindset that inevitably seems to arise when issues in royal families become public. Since Henrik is the one whose mistakes have been made publicly it's easy to be 100% on QM's side, for lack of a better word, and that's where I've been for the past couple days. However there are always at least two sides to a story and I'm trying to see what Henrik's side might be.

First of all, I think it must not be easy to be a member of a royal family who is not the monarch or the heir. By definition a monarchy is going to be set up to further the interests of the members who have institutional roles, and if something goes wrong and there is conflict, the institution will close ranks around the Head of State and the future Head of State. Which, from an institutional point of view is the correct thing to do, but of course, royal families are families, not bureaucracies or corporations. I think it's therefore possibly harder for the monarch/heir to see what's so difficult or potentially hurtful to their family members about separating the institution, (public), from the family, (private), because they're the only ones who embody both realms.

On a personal level, Margrethe has freely admitted that she initially didn't notice Henrik was having some difficulties in the early part of their marriage and when she did finally figure it out she wasn't hugely effective in supporting him. Reading between the lines over my years of following the DRF the impression I get is that QM loves her family dearly, but maybe isn't stellar at dealing with daily nitty gritty emotional tasks or picking up on subtle emotional cues. So the one person who was in the position to really help Henrik didn't do as much as she could. And if he went to members of the court with any dissatisfaction I'm sure they made at least superficial efforts to help him but it wouldn't surprise me if the underlying message was "just be quiet and toe the line."

So it's not surprising that the end result of this was a public crisis with Henrik running off to France over a seemingly trivial episode. He then got public scorn because the public only knew a tiny slice of the story and the unfortunate cycle has been ongoing since. It's no doubt been hard on the family for a long time, but now it's spilled over, messily, into the institutional side as well.

Henrik is publicly lashing out, which is awful, but he didn't get to this place suddenly or entirely without reason.

 

[Denville]

A queen regnant is not the same as a queen consort. however historically in most monarchies, a king can share his rank with his wife..up to a point and to give her the rank queen. But for a woman monarch her husband is going to NOT share her rank, at all. Henri knew that when he married Marg, so it is foolish of him to start making a fuss in the past years.

 

[Nordic]

He could dealt this far more intelligent, discreet and conscious; he could have stated officially how important it was to him to be buried in his native homeland, and not connecting the matter with that ridiculous "King-subject-thing" if he didn´t want to embarress his wife and the monarchy!

But the announcement said that PH wants to be buried in Denmark. He just doesn't want to be buried next to his wife.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I wonder has his allowance been cut or about to be,he's done himself no favours and I'd imagine the Danes are sick and tired of the old windbag.

 

[wyevale]

But the announcement said that PH wants to be buried in Denmark. He just doesn't want to be buried next to his wife.

True, but I suspect they're giving it out in 'easy stages' [!], and his real intention it to be buried in France, where [if those opinion polls are accurate] a majority of Danes might prefer him to rest for eternity...

 

[M. Payton]

We're often told that love is putting someone else's needs before your own.

In this situation, it's clear that Henrik doesn't want to put his wife's needs and his country before his own ego. Make of that what you will.

Totally agree with your comment for in viewing PH he has clearly over the years always put his own needs above his wife so many times and has totally embarrassed in front of the entire nation, in loving another person you just do not do those kind of things and say then I love you, that is so appalling that there are times I wondered if he ever loved her to begin with, just my own thought on that.

 

[wyevale]

I wondered if he ever loved her to begin with

Inevitably one wonders.. for a man so 'wondrous fond of place', perhaps the opportunity to shoot up the precedence 'rankings', from VERY minor aristocrat was simply irresistable ?

 

[Nordic]

True, but I suspect they're giving it out in 'easy stages' [!], and his real intention it to be buried in France, where [if those opinion polls are accurate] a majority of Danes might prefer him to rest for eternity...

You mean they have a cunning plan...
I would have thought, that saying he wants to be buried in his native France would make him slightly less unpopular than announcing that he wants to be buried in Denmark, just not next to his wife of 50 years....

 

[wyevale]

Tehe !

I'm bound to say he seems to care nothing for his popularity in Denmark, now [if he EVER did !]

 

[Tatiana Maria]

p.s. I didn't even think of the Monpezat title earlier. Yeah it being a 'male-line descendants only' doesn't really help his case either. It's a newly created title anyway, they could've done anything with it. That means Isabella, Josephine and Athena's future children won't get it, right?

All continental nobiliary peerages are to the heirs in the male lineage. Not so long ago Spain changed it with the eldest child as the heir, regardless the gender but Spain is quite different as a sister can transfer the rights to a brother, as a holder of more titles can distribute it over more persons or even cede the use of a title to another person (but remaining the title holder).

In Sweden, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Monaco, Liechtenstein and all former monarchies the nobiliary system follows the heirs of the male body. The United Kingdom too, unless a special remainder has been attached to a Letters Patent (i.e. the Earldom Mountbatten of Burma).

Carina was making the point that even though the Prince used gender equality as an argument for his own titulature, he did not raise an objection to the gender discrimination in the creation of the title of Count(ess) of Monpezat in Denmark (whereas the descendants of Queen Ingrid were not created Princes(ses) Bernadotte), or to the gender discrimination in the title's remainder (the children of Princesses Isabella, Josephine, and Athena will not receive the title, whereas the children of their brothers will).

In the United Kingdom, the normal remainder attached to a Letters Patent is "male heirs of the body" (rather than heirs of the male body), following which female peers may pass on their titles to their sons, but male peers may not pass on their titles to their daughters. The peer remains the holder of the courtesy title which is used by his or her eldest son. In Spain, however, the title holder is the person to whom the title has been ceded.

In a way gender equality is a factor, because in the past, husbands of queens were made kings because women were subservient to men and men thought they needed to make decisions for the poor weak minded little woman. That began to change and the title of king was no longer given to the spouse of the Queen, in part because in some minds the King always outranked the Queen.

Which was indeed the thought in the minds of some, but not in every country. For example, King Francisco of Spain was very clearly subservient to his wife, since he was prohibited by the Constitution from taking part in the ruling of Spain. Still, he was granted the title of King.

There are several precedents. e.g.:

Rudolph of France
Philip I of Navarre
Louis I of Naples
Philip III of Navarre
John I of Castile (as king jure uxoris of Portugal, disputed)
Philip I of Castile
Henry Stuart (as king consort of Scots)
Antoine of Navarre
Philip II of Spain (as king jure uxoris of England)
Peter (Pedro) III of Portugal
Ferdinand II of Portugal
Francis , Duke of Cádiz (as king consort of Spain)
etc.

In fact, the only reason why there aren't more examples of precedents is that reigning queens used to be rare. Several of the monarchies that now have to deal with this issue such as Belgium, Denmark, Norway and Sweden only allowed female succession to the throne in the second half of the 20th century. In fact, prior to 1850, Prince George of Denmark (as the husband of Queen Anne) and Prince Albert (as the husband of Queen Victoria) were exceptions in terms of not being called "king" rather than the rule and, in both cases, it was the parliament that instigated the denial of the title against the will of the reigning queens.

True, and there were precedents in eastern Europe too.

As for the titulature of male consorts in Denmark, I think the only precedents that were made by the Danish Royal House were the husbands of Queen Margrethe II and Princess Benedikte (Princess Anne-Marie married the King of Greece). Richard was offered the title of Prince of Denmark, but he turned the title down.

About his rejection of a Danish princely title:

"I never regretted, and I never took the proposal seriously. Neither did I take it seriously when it was suggested from Danish quarters that I should give up Berleburg and settle in Denmark. I spat out a ‘No’ as fast as I could."

 

[carina_a]

Duc,

With all due respect, I think you are the one conveniently neglecting the elephant here. I would like to quote Thena's words:

We're often told that love is putting someone else's needs before your own.

In this situation, it's clear that Henrik doesn't want to put his wife's needs and his country before his own ego. Make of that what you will.

It's not just about how the titles should be. It's also about what he has done to his wife.
The wife who he has spent over 50 years with. The wife with whom he had two children and eight grandchildren with. The wife who has been trying to accommodate his wishes as much as possible all these years. The wife he claims to love so much.

------
We are not PH himself. We would never know what he was truly thinking. Maybe it's not as bad, or maybe it's even worse. We can only judge from appearances. And the appearances look bad to me.

 

[QueenPenny]

Not wanting to be buried next to his wife of 50 years because of something as nonsensical as a title is truly deplorable, IMO. From what I understand his title has been a thorny issue for years, but I am sure he knew going into the marriage that the title 'king/king consort' was off of the table and never going to happen.

Having said that, I would support a Prince/Princess consort title for any spouse of a monarch, for all countries with monarchies. I do tend to agree that it makes no sense, in these days of gender equality, that spouses of kings are queens and styled as majesties, but spouses of queens are princes, and styled as HRH. Not that PH's issue has anything to do with gender equality; he's shown himself to be a bitter, selfish man.

And I do realize that it is absurd to reference equality in any discussion regarding a monarchy when the whole institution is based purely on what family you are born into or marry into. The fact that there are people who would bow or curtsey to anyone based on what family they were born into, or even more so, marry into, or otherwise think them superior, has no place in society as we are about to enter the 3rd decade of the 21st century. My opinions, MMV.

 

[4Pam]

why does he behave like a child? why wouldn't he want to be buried next to his wife, who loves & supports him? esp after 50 years!

 

[MARG]

This whole situation makes me think about Prince Charles and Camilla, the Duchess of Cornwall. No, I do not agree with the affair they had. Nevertheless, they are married now and rightfully she should be called the Princess of Wales, but out of deference to public opinion, she is not. When they married it was said that she would be called Princess Consort instead of Queen, which legally she will be anyway, again out of deference to public opinion. But it does not appear to bother her. She loves Prince Charles more than titles. This just makes me believe that Prince Henrick does not love Queen Margrethe as much as he loves titles and that he married her only to enhance his postion, which never became what he wanted.

Legally, Camilla will be queen when Charles becomes king. They can call themselves what they like, it still doesn't change the fact that she is not a Princess of anywhere. Conversely, Maxima is called queen but is actually only a princess of the Netherlands. Go figure.

Since Prince Henrik will deign to lay beside his wife in death if he is declared King Consort before death, yes it does look like he is a slimy little social climber who has realised his time is (literally) running out and he's not even a prince in his own right! Then again, he became HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark on marriage to Margrethe and then HRH The Prince Consort when Margrethe became queen. Interestingly enough, he reverted to HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark when he retired.