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  #701  
Old 01-04-2021, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
In a constitutional context, the crown prince automatically takes over if the monarch is incapacitated or absent.
If the crown prince is a minor, absent or incapacitated as well a Rigsforstander takes over.
The law is very clear on that.
PH was never a Rigsforstander. He never had a constitutional role.

[...]

And I believe that was the main reason for PH never being appointed Rigsforstander. Something both Queen Ingrid and Mary have been.
I agree the law is quite clear that the crown prince is to take over during a regency unless he is a minor, absent or incapacitated, and the prince consort ought to have been familiar with (and not complained about) a law which has been in effect since 1871.

On the other hand, if I understand you correctly, he was never appointed as Rigsforstander even when Frederik was a minor, absent or incapacitated, and in that regard he was treated differently from Ingrid and Mary.

I replied to the title discussion in the thread: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2365120
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  #702  
Old 01-04-2021, 04:33 PM
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PH was never appointed Rigsforstander, in contrast to Mary and Queen Ingrid.

I firmly believe had PH been appointed Rigsforstander it would have caused a controversy, due to his behavior i.e. him complaining publicly about his position in the family and constitutionally, culminating with him running off to France. That stunt was IMO decisive.
While he may have had some, albeit limited but growing, sympathy for his position and arguments before that, the public became defiant after that. There was now no way PH would ever get a title containing the word king. Nor would he be accepted as Rigsforstander.
I believe not only the public but also the politicians simply didn't trust him.

Because PH ought to have been appointed Rigsforstander on occasion, considering his position and experience.

When Queen Ingrid and Mary were appointed, the politicians went out and publicly expressed their trust in them. In regards to Queen Ingrid the politicians directly said that she was trustworthy.
And as for Mary it was the same, there was no public protest at all, people felt she deserved it and the politicians expressed their delight. Many of the leading politicians having worked closely with Mary.
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  #703  
Old 01-04-2021, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
PH was never appointed Rigsforstander, in contrast to Mary and Queen Ingrid.

I firmly believe had PH been appointed Rigsforstander it would have caused a controversy, due to his behavior i.e. him complaining publicly about his position in the family and constitutionally, culminating with him running off to France. That stunt was IMO decisive.
That is fully understandable. But how far back did his behavior date? The France stunt occurred in 2002. What was the reason he was never appointed Rigsforstander in the 1970s or 1980s, when Crown Prince Frederik was a minor?
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  #704  
Old 01-04-2021, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
That is fully understandable. But how far back did his behavior date? The France stunt occurred in 2002. What was the reason he was never appointed Rigsforstander in the 1970s or 1980s, when Crown Prince Frederik was a minor?
Based on what my family talked about, he wasn't particularly popular in the 70's nor in the 80's.
Speaking "circus-Danish", his heavy handed approach to raising his sons, that is dealt with in the docu and caused an uproar! His obvious reluctance to walk two steps behind his wife. The public gossip at the time claimed that he got a dressing down from Queen Ingrid because of that. And not least for basically being too foreign. Keep in mind that DK was much more provincial back then.
In short: He had not been accepted by the tribe. That came much later.

Also, Queen Ingrid was pretty much always around to take over as Rigsforstander if need be.

Frederik's speech to the silver anniversary wasn't exactly helpful either, even though it was by no means meant at as criticism of his father.
The "It is said that you chastise the ones you love. Papa, we were never in doubt about your love for us."
Also seen in the docu.
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  #705  
Old 01-04-2021, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Had PH been an ordinary Dane, no one would have lifted even half an eyebrow.

I'd say the vast majority here in DK are cremated. And I'll also say that the majority are buried in an unmarked grave.

It it quite common to have your ashes spread at sea.

Many are buried (usually an urn) in a forest, like PH will be. - Or more correctly PH's urn will be buried among trees in the private part of the park around Fredensborg.

A relative minority prefer to be buried in marked graves or family plots.

Then there are those who belong to other faiths like Jews, Buddhist, Muslims, Asa-followers and atheists of course who have their special plots in the state cemeteries, - which are for all.

What is unusual is that PH's burial wishes is singular among the DRF. Normally they are entombed, or buried in a coffin like Frederik IX and Queen Ingrid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
DR: The former master of ceremonies Christian Eugen-Olsen (the guy I mentioned in the above post) said on DR1 that he's glad that PH whises to be cremated, with half his ashes being spread over the sea, and the other half being put in an urn and buried at Fredensborg. - Why? Because that shows that he saw himself as Danish. He repeats that ''PH is a Dane and has always felt like a Dane''.
So whilst his burial plans were singular for a very senior royal, they conformed to the experiences of most ordinary Danes. I wonder if it was his riposte to his acquired reputation as a "vain Frenchman"?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Okay, what I'm going to say now may be considered controversial by some, so be it.
I think the DRF have interpreted the court mourning very strictly, almost to the point of making a statement IMO.
I can completely understand the DRF not attending celebratory events. And I totally understand QMII taking a few weeks off for reflection, I would also take time off in her place. That's natural.
However, the DRF went almost completely under ground for these past four weeks, only attending what was absolutely necessary.
To me it is almost like they are saying: PH was not universally appreciated while he was alive, but this is how important he was to us. Get it!?!
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
I completely agree. I am very surprised by the very strict interpretation.
Was mourning interpreted more leniently in connection with Queen Ingrid's passing?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Based on what my family talked about, he wasn't particularly popular in the 70's nor in the 80's.
Speaking "circus-Danish", his heavy handed approach to raising his sons, that is dealt with in the docu and caused an uproar! His obvious reluctance to walk two steps behind his wife. The public gossip at the time claimed that he got a dressing down from Queen Ingrid because of that. And not least for basically being too foreign. Keep in mind that DK was much more provincial back then.
In short: He had not been accepted by the tribe. That came much later.

Also, Queen Ingrid was pretty much always around to take over as Rigsforstander if need be.
Thank you. It is always interesting to hear the thoughts of people who were residents of the country at the time.
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  #706  
Old 01-05-2021, 08:42 AM
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He must have been gratefull to the Danish Royal Family allowing the Castle of Cayx and his important collections of primitive art which most were sold at Bruun Rasmussen Auction House.
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  #707  
Old 01-05-2021, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
So whilst his burial plans were singular for a very senior royal, they conformed to the experiences of most ordinary Danes. I wonder if it was his riposte to his acquired reputation as a "vain Frenchman"?

Was mourning interpreted more leniently in connection with Queen Ingrid's passing?

Thank you. It is always interesting to hear the thoughts of people who were residents of the country at the time.
Could be, but I honestly don't think so. I think his wish about being cremated was genuine and in accordance with his beliefs, that leaned towards Buddhism.
It was no secret he loved the sea and Dannebrog and I think being partially buried at Fredensborg was so that his family could privately visit him, whenever they wanted to.

The mourning in regards to Queen Ingrid was never a topic as far as I can recall. Nor was it so sternly observed, again IRRC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
He must have been gratefull to the Danish Royal Family allowing the Castle of Cayx and his important collections of primitive art which most were sold at Bruun Rasmussen Auction House.
You are absolutely right.
While there is no doubt that PH at times wasn't treated as well as he deserved, by both the public and the press, he also lived a rich life that was beyond the wildest dreams of most.
As you point out, I think it's doubtful that PH, even if he had become a successful diplomat or pianist would have been able to buy and maintain a chateau in France.
Nor would he ever have met that many prominent people, royals, celebrities, statesmen and other very influential people.
Nor would he ever have seen so many things that even the extremely wealthy will never see, like the inside of royal palaces.
Nor would he have gone down in history. Because PH is now a part of Danish history, not least because he was such a colorful character.
If there is a Denmark in say 300 years, historians will study him and what will be the equivalent of documentaries will be shown about him.
And should the TRF exist in 300 years, there will be a thread about him.

So while he at times had a hard time in DK, it was also a life with many advantages and perks.
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  #708  
Old 01-05-2021, 04:27 PM
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Right, this is a brief guide to the documentary.

It will be way too time consuming to go into details, so what I am going to do is to divide the docu into segments based on controversy and highlight particular episodes and moments where I suggest you pay particular attention to how PH acted and sounded.

01:10 - PH expressing his sadness and disappointment that he after 37 years wasn't accepted by a part in the population. (True, he wasn't.)
01:40 - What does it matter to them whether I'm Prince Henrik or king consort?
He wanted an identity and equality.
02:20 - Arrival and introduction to the Danish tribe.
05:55 - PH had not had and expected no problems adjusting from French to Danish culture.
08:40 - PH talks about how very sensitive and extremely shy he was as a teen.
09:10 - QMII didn't panic at all just because she at 26 or so hadn't been married, let alone had a boyfriend. In fact she had reconciled herself to the fact that she might never marry.
11:25 - PH's dad wasn't particular enthusiastic about the marriage. He advised his so to make sure he defined his future role clearly.
18:10 - The photo-op where QMII was hopping mad! She was not keen on answering any questions! Sp PH took over answering questions about their stay at Cayx.
19:20 - PH acknowledged that his sons got a strict upbringing and that is out of love.
20:45 - It is very clear that PH upon the death of Frederik IX expected to be promoted to something akin to queen, arguing that certainly Frederik IX would never have accepted that Queen Ingrid had remained princess.
21:00 - Now, what is he going to do? What will be his role? What is his job? Asked directly by journalists. - Among other things help the export businesses.
22:35 - First press meeting as regent couple. PH explains that being prince consort is one of the most difficult jobs in the world. At this point he still got Danish lessons.
PH points out in the recording that having an accent is frowned upon. (There is a good deal of truth in that.)
22:25 - The DR1 royal specialist, the Poul J°rgensen himself, asks PH whether he misses having a real job(!!) PH answered that one in very diplomatic way. (Notice QMII.)
26:30 - This segment caused an uproar in DK! Frederik was not at all happy about riding, but no mercy, it's back on the horse! So did PH's thoughts about how to raise children. (I can still remember the controversy back then, also within my family. There was only one TV channel, so everyone had seen it.)
30:00 - PH fought for and won the right to get his own apanage, rather than having to ask his wife "for money to buy cigarettes." There was actually a good lot of public opposition to that initially. That changed however.
32:25 - QMII admits that of course there are discussion between her and PH (read: fight) from time to time, and that's not something that is everybody else's business.
PH was very physically active and thus managed to be fit and slim.
34:25 - Being asked about the fact that he will always be number two, in regards to his wife. He explains that the role of prince consort is not well-defined.
35:05 - Silver anniversary. Interviewed by the Poul J°rgensen. PH explains that he was initially received very warmly, but after a while there was criticism and it wasn't easy to deal with.
In the recording PH explains that the Danes expect people who settle in Denmark to assimilate completely and become Danish. (Which is absolutely correct. Tribal mentality.) PH was not happy/willing to abandon his roots.
37:00 - QMII admits that she wasn't the support for her husband (in the root regards) that she ought to have been and that it took a while, before it dawned upon her how difficult that was for him.
38:00 - In the recording PH talk about how (DK) brags about gender equality, while refusing to address the lack of gender equality at the very top. I.e. him. He was not equal to his wife.
38:40 - Frederik's speech at the anniversary that caused a sensation! His remark about: "It is said that you chastise the ones you love. Papa, we were never in doubt about your love for us."
39:00 - PH talks about how he feels that Danish parents are way too lenient with their children and bringing them up.
Frederik continues to talk about the harsh upbringing. When turning to mother they were comforted, but she didn't side with them.
40:00 - In another speech Frederik emphasize that PH was hard and demanding but also warm and loving. And he was present.
41:40 - QMII is basically asked how about making PH Regent Consort?
41:00 - The infamous New Year Court for the diplomatic corps where the Frederik as Regent accepts the well wishes on behalf of QMII. And where PH felt usurped by his son.
In the recording he felt that he, the husband of the Queen, was nothing. It was the son who received the well wishes.
Constitutionally speaking the Prince Consort has no role.
The public opinion was that Frederik was and should be "number one" in this context.
43:20 - PH ran off to Cayx. Followed by one of the most awkward press meetings in DRF history. Everything is a-okay, we are all so happy, hurrah, hurrah...
In the recording he is asked why he wanted to have a title equal to his wife. After all he has everything. Status, position. Is it the Frenchman within him speaking? No, no. it's the man speaking. Every man, most men, wants an identity, he is after all the one who is the head of the family. So being usurped by his son was the final straw in a string of humiliations in regards to his status.
He got no public sympathy!
QMII felt sympathy though and that there perhaps was certain degree of glee in the press. It was hard for all in the DRF, hinting that PH wasn't quite himself. I.e. He wasn't in balance with himself. And acknowledge that he is more sensitive than he appears.
47:40 - PH explains it was not that big a deal, blown a little out of proportions and admits he was very upset.
48:10 - PH the artist. The musician.
50:00 - The older and perhaps more laid back PH. And in that role, genuinely popular, even cult.
50:50 - Watch QMII's initial reaction.
51.10 - In the recording he talks about sensing that his abilities are not what they used to be and that he has problems with his memory.
51:20 - PH officially retires.
51:55 - Official announcement: Dementia.
53:40 - Recording: Reflections about dying. He was not afraid to die.
54:00 - PH is no more.
55:30 - PH regretted he did not put a lot more emphasis on learning Danish. (That is to speak Danish, but he certainly mastered all the nuances and subtleties, including the humor which is very much based on irony. However, his spoken Danish was pretty miserable.) And as he observed, it annoyed the Danes and was seen as an affront. He declared himself being 100 % Danish. France was his old country, but he felt 100 % Danish.
All this with QMII speech to her husband on his birthday, declaring that even if she knew what life they would have, she would without hesitation say yes (I do) to him again.
In the end PH mentions that the most important thing is his life, is his family.

-------------

Stephanie Surruque was asked in a Q&A after the docu whether it would shown in French. And from what I could understand with my inadequate French, there are no immediate plans for that.
However, there is nothing to hinder that you mail DR1 and ask if they would add English subtitles to the docu: They have been known to listen to foreign requests.
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  #709  
Old 01-05-2021, 05:28 PM
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Thanks for that Muhler. I get the impression (as an outsider looking in) that the press knew by asking him continously about his role - ie; as no 2 to The Queen it would annoy and get him riled up. So over the years they - The Press kept on about it. I imagine Prince Henrik and The Queen had mostly a very good relationship and many good times out weighing the bad times.
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  #710  
Old 01-05-2021, 11:26 PM
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Thank you for posting a link to the documentary about prince Henrik and to Muhler for giving an outline to what was said in Danish. It was lovely to hear the Prince speaking his native French; he did say at one point in English to Barbara Walters that Danish is a very difficult language. This from a man who was fluent in Chinese and who was brought up speaking Vietnamese! It is indeed the Oriental part of the man that I would have liked to see but I do hope that Danish TV will show more about the very rich life that was led by the first Prince Consort of Denmark
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  #711  
Old 01-06-2021, 11:37 AM
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You are welcome, Gerry & Tarlita.

I understand from people here on the TRF who have studied Danish that the grammar is relatively simple, but listening to Danish and speaking Danish is very difficult.
I understand the Copenhagener Danish is more difficult to learn than the perhaps more soft Southern Jutlandic Danish. More than one has claimed that it is much easier to understand.

Our Marie who speaks several languages has said that French and Danish have a number of vowels in common. An advantage English speakers seemingly don't have.
I'll leave it to others to judge whether that is correct or not.

PH of course had the advantage that he was immersed in Vietnamese when he was a child. And children pick up languages easily. They are programmed for that.
So I will ask: How was his English to English ears?

---------------------

You are probably right, Tarlita. At least certain segments of the press reveled in derogatory stories about PH.
However, PH was more than happy to mention the subject - and of course the press would feel obliged to write about something, that not only sells but is a topic of great interest to the general public.

And I agree. They seemingly had a good a loving marriage. Most likely because they allowed each other space and because they could stimulate each other intellectually. Of course having intellectual conversations is not a key to a happy marriage, but I think it was a great asset in QMII and PH's marriage.
There would more than likely have been times, where having separate bedrooms would have been not only practical but desired...

-----------------

I have written a lot about PH in connection with this docu, mostly to provide background info, but I don't have a fact sheet to the enigma that was PH.
Your analysis and your intuition is just as good as mine.

That's why I like this docu so much, because even people who do not understand Danish or French can here watch PH and study his tone of voice, his body language and mimic.
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  #712  
Old 01-06-2021, 03:54 PM
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I was surprised about the reaction of France when he passed away.
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  #713  
Old 01-08-2021, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
PH of course had the advantage that he was immersed in Vietnamese when he was a child. And children pick up languages easily. They are programmed for that.
So I will ask: How was his English to English ears?
.
American ears here. Based on that documentary, I'd say his English was good. Heavy French accent and slightly hesitating at times, but he seems to use and understand idioms that suggest he knew English pretty fluently.

But, Prince Henrik doesn't seem quite as fluent as the rest of the family. Queen Margrethe and Prince Joachim speak perfect English with a British accent -- you would have to listen very hard know that they are not native speakers or that English isn't their first language.

CP Frederik seems to speak English well, but he has a more obvious Danish accent, and he doesn't seem too confident when speaking English.

Queen Anne-Marie and Princess Benedikte also speak fluent and excellent English with a clear British influence, but their accents are not quite as perfect as their sister's. You can detect a slight accent with both of them.

I'm getting a little OT, but I saw some video the other day of Benedikte's daughters speaking English, and they both sound perfectly fluent with British accents. In fact, they sound more "English" than their cousin CP Pavlos, even though he grew up mainly in London.
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  #714  
Old 01-08-2021, 04:56 PM
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Thanks, Kalnel.

Most interesting.
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  #715  
Old 01-08-2021, 09:08 PM
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The English of Prince Henrik was beautifully Frenchified and a pleasure to listen to, especially since he let his sense of humour shine through his words! I believe the Danish princesses had an English speaking grandmother in the Princess Margaret of Connaught but they were also sent to British schools, if I recall correctly. It is true that both Prince Frederik and Prince Joachim speak English well but their French is native as their father sent them both to French boarding schools!
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