Moroccan Royal Names and Titles

[Humera]

Originally Posted by amina1

I remember reading this particular interview, he exactly said "...there is no queen in islam"
Were there muslim queens by the way?

yes there were...that's what some other members and myself have said in previous posts

"The Forgotten Queens of Islam"
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASI...328543-2872338

The King doesn't come across to me as a particularly intellectual type. So im not surprised he made a comment like that, eventhough nothing in the Quran, teachings of the Prophet, or Islamic history, supports his claim.
When Benzir Bhutto became the first female head of state of an Islamic country in the 1980s, some people made the same ridiculous claim. And yet she was elected twice and was the country's most popular Prime Minister.
Infact the developing world (including the Muslim nations of Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indonesia)has had more female heads of state than many developed/western nations.
King Muhammad seems to be ignoring both history and the present. I'll try not to be too disappointed

[Monalisa]

I think Humera you didn't understund what king MVI was meaning,yes in Islam the women are not allowed to rule,you can recall the scandal made the woman Imam from USA recently,and ruling is not a question of royalty only,since the king in morocco is a "Amir Mumeneen" or "Prince of believers"who should be ruler,Imam...,it's a problem for a woman to carry some of those fonctions in Islam as i know.


IMO,it comes across a illogic thing because even royalty is not a way of ruling, if it backs up on islam,the prophet Mohammed said in his last days to make a "shura" between muslims to select their ruler,so the model of republics is more appropriate for that,but things didn't go as it should be,and the islamic world went throught such as royalties and denasties!,especially those who claim being descendent of prophet,like the MRF and the JRF...

Well, now,I can't blame KMVI being a royal or a king,since he's following only what it was done before,but it seems that he's only avoiding the question,towards the heavy moroccan royal protocol,IMO,he could name his wife a queen but without ruling,if she has this title,that's not meaning that she would rule one day,if it was the case,so his older sister princess lalla meryem would be the most concerned woman about this question!

The question of being a "Amir of Mumeneen" of the moroccan monarch is very critisized,so I expect that may change in the future,which could allow the king's wife to take maybe the title of "Queen"!

[Humera]

I understand most of what you're saying Monalisa.
But you fail to recognize there is nothing in the Quran or the prophet's teachings or history that says that a woman cant rule/become head-of-state. Even with Imams and prayer leaders, where does it say that only a man can be one?
It is only tradition and patriarchy that is the reason why people make such claims.
If something is considered unlawful according to Islam, it is explicitly mentioned in the Quran as forbidden. But the Quran cant list every single thing that is lawful, which is why in general, if something is NOT explicitly forbidden in Islam, it is allowed. And thats not my opinion thats the opionion of many Islamic jurists and lawmakers.
And if King Muhammad is only following "tradition" in this matter than it shows a narrowness of mind and thought. There are plenty of acdemics and even Islamic scholars who would disagree with him.

People come up with all sorts of ridculous lists of things that are "forbidden" for women, in some regions women cant vote, drive, go out of the house without a man. But none of that has anything to do with Islam. Its all part of a patriarchal cultural system that uses religion to legitimize its claims and mantain control over its citizens and especially women.

Lalla Salma may not get the title of Queen...but who knows there's still plenty of time and if it still doesn't happen, im sure her son will change things when he becomes King. The world will be a very different place by then.

[Monalisa]

[QUOTE=~*~Humera~*~]I understand most of what you're saying Monalisa.
But you fail to recognize there is nothing in the Quran or the prophet's teachings or history that says that a woman cant rule/become head-of-state. QUOTE]

I agree, nothing in Quran says that woman can't rule,in the opposit ,the history shows that women are more diplomatic.If we talk again about the islamic History,women took a great part in it,Khadija prophet's wife,who was called "Um almumeneen",had her word to say in the way of ruling muslims,and it was very respected and accepted then,later there was "Aesha" and many other women which we can quote to show that the muslim women were very involved in the political and social life since the beginning of islam 15 centuries ago,which was very "avant-garde"for the women rights, comparing to what it was done otherwise,or maybe what's still done in some countries,especially ME one which are muslim,but by surprise even don't allow women to vote !


[QUOTE=~*~Humera~*~] Even with Imams and prayer leaders, where does it say that only a man can be one?
It is only tradition and patriarchy that is the reason why people make such claims.
QUOTE]


I can't agree here,since it's logic that a woman is not always available or disponible to lead prayers since she's considered "not pure" when she has her period,and a Imam or prayers' leader should be pure always at least during his fonctions!

[Toledo]

What does Lalla means? I did a quick search and found only the english name versions. Is it a form of title in Morroco?

[hilal]

Originally Posted by Toledo

What does Lalla means? I did a quick search and found only the english name versions. Is it a form of title in Morroco?

"Lalla" means "Lady" in english.

And more information:
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Morocco/morocco.htm

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by hilal

"Lalla" means "Lady" in english.

And more information:
http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Morocco/morocco.htm

Thanks! that explains a lot :) So Lalla Salma is actually Lady Salma.

from above link:

STYLES & TITLES:
The Sovereign: King of Morocco, and Amir al-Mu'minin, with the style of His Majesty.
The consort of the Sovereign: Princess Lalla (personal name), with the styled of Her Royal Highness.
The Heir Apparent: Crown Prince, with the styled of His Royal Highness.
Male members of the Royal family, descendants of Kings in the male line: The other sons of the Sovereign: Prince Mulay (personal name), with the styled of His Royal Highness.
The daughters of the Sovereign: Princess Lalla (personal name), with the styled of Her Royal Highness.
Other male members of the Royal family, descendants of previous rulers in the male line: Prince Mulay (personal name), with the styled of His Highness.
Other female members of the Royal family, descendants of previous rulers in the male line: Princess Lalla (personal name), with the styled of Her Highness.
Other, more distant male members of the Alawi clan: Mulay (personal name) bin (father's personal name) al-Alaoui.
Other, more distant male members of the Alawi clan: Lalla (personal name) bint (father's personal name) al-Alaoui.

[Leslie2006]

Is that a name---similar to Maria for the Catholics---given to all Princesses of Arab countries? I've noticed all the Moroccan princesses have it.

[LauraMCS]

"Lalla", if memory serves, is an honorific granted to women of high rank or those who have been venerated as saints. I have only the term 'Lalla' used for women of Northern African countries (Morocco and Algiers specifically) but there might be others that I can't remember right off the top of my head.

[Odette]

I believe the same. I read that it is a honorific title. All the King's sisters and his wife have it.

[Paty]

It could be.... Lalla = Laidy ?

[Count]

Originally Posted by Paty

It could be.... Lalla = Laidy ?

Exactly Paty, in Arabic, "Lalla"=Lady is like a title given to female members of important families, not only Royal families. It comes from the Berber language of North Africa.

[Menarue]

Just like the Portuguese Dona. The Queens were always Rainha D.Isabel, or Rainha D.Maria which would translate as Queen Lady Isabel etc.
In polite conversation women are addressed as Senhora dona, but Dona and the given name is for the aristocracy. Whereas for men Dom is for the aristocracy (some, that is those that have the right to be called this with their given name) and prelates.

[morgeanne]

Lalla is just a way of having respect for a woman. I'm a moroccan and I call all the elder ladies 'lalla'.

In reality it's not just lalla Salma. It's Amira Lalla Salma. And Amira is like princesse.

[chaimae]

Originally Posted by morgeanne

Lalla is just a way of having respect for a woman. I'm a moroccan and I call all the elder ladies 'lalla'.

In reality it's not just lalla Salma. It's Amira Lalla Salma. And Amira is like princesse.

yes thats true ,we call lala to the women just to respect her , its just a way to respect others some poeple call the grandmother 'lala'

[sgl]

Originally Posted by morgeanne

Lalla is just a way of having respect for a woman. I'm a moroccan and I call all the elder ladies 'lalla'.

In reality it's not just lalla Salma. It's Amira Lalla Salma. And Amira is like princesse.

You're absolutely correct about Amira. I have learned a bit of Arabic from some of my friends from Saudi Arabia, and they have taught me "Amira", which means princess.

[shrifia]

Lalla in morocco like some members said before mean Lady in english and Dona in spanish (I meanfor royal women)it's definitely title that use to give to royal woman until her birth.
we use it too to call old ladies or just someone who is respectful,it's way to be polite,lalla for women and moulay or sidi for men.I don't know the historic Origin of the title but it's very old tradition...maybe I'll do some search about.

[Menarue]

It is a nice tradition that is for sure. I hadn´t realised that moulay or sidi was the version for men. We learn something new every day, that is why this forum is so interesting.

[White Princess]

Hey, why every woman in Morroco have the name 'Lalla'?

[zineb]

Originally Posted by White Princess

Hey, why every woman in Morroco have the name 'Lalla'?

good question. me too, i don't know why they add this surname "lalla" to their names

as far as i know, lalla is one of the famous indian mathematician and astrologer and also it's an european name. i read somewhere it's amazigh term of respect. and in morocco, they said it's equivalent to "lady". in old days, slaves/servants couldn't call their patron lady' first name lonely without this "lalla". and young ppl use it also to call olderly women or grandma. if it's for olderly ppl, it's ok. but as all human being are equal, and the first name is enough, there is really no need to add this surname. but in MRF and some moroccan families, they use this "lalla" for females, "sidi" and "moulay" for males, to have respect .. as they can't have respect without these surnames??!!

for the crown prince, he is called "smit sidi = sidi's name" .. i don't see the point from ppl not having the right to pronounce his real name Hassan. and if by chance, someone hears "smit sidi" and he doesn't know the boy' name, he has to guess his name bewteen hundreds of names .. isn't it funny? this sounds mysterious and making life complicated

and since couple of years, the situation is even more disappointing, since no one in morocco can have "officially" this "lalla, sidi, moulay, amira or mira (meaning princess) ..." as a first name (or part of it) than the royal family. isn't it bad this is really violation of the right of parents to choose freely the name of their child, plus of that wanting to keep "respect" terms only for themselves