Titles of the Dutch Royals


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Jonkheer/ jonkvrouwe is the lowest noble title in The Netherlands and Belgium, lower than baron/baroness; best compared to the untitled nobility in Germany. When a jonkheer marries his wife will not even become a jonkvrouwe...just plain mrs. X (unless she has some titles of her own).
 
I was reading in Hello! that the children of Johan-Friso and Mabel will be Dukes/Duchesses, and that the Children of Constantijn and Laurentien would become Count/Countess. Why would J-F and Mabel's children become Dukes/Duchesses? Arn't they higher than Count/Countess? Why would their children out rank Constantijn and Laurentien? I don't get it? Or is a count ranked higher than a Duke?
 
:huh: I thought that Friso and Mabel's children would be counts/countesses...
 
I think that the children of prince Johan Friso and princess Mabel will be count and countes of Orange-Nassau, just like the children of prince Constantij and princess Laurentien. The only difference is that Constantijn and Laurentien have the title Prince and Princess of the Netherlands, and Johan Friso and Mabel don´t have that.
The newly weds only have Prince and Princess of Orange nassau.
Besides, In the Dutch Nobility we don´t have dukes anymore.
 
Thank You for you replies. Royalty Magazine... Was wrong!
 
Royalty Magazine is wrong more often than not. It has great pictures but isn't known for it's accuracy.

All the children of The Prince of Orange (WA) and Princess Maxima will be His/Her Royal Highness Prince/ss of The Netherlands, Princ/ess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkeer/Jonkvrouw van Amsberg.

The children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentine will be The High Born Lord/Lady Count/ess of Orange Nassau, Jonkeer/Jonkvrouw van Amsberg with hereditary nobility they also have succession rights within the second degree of kinship to whomever the current monarch may be.

The future children of Prince Friso and Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau with be The High Born Lord/Lady Count/ess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkeer/Jonkvrouw van Orange-Nassau van Amsberg with the hereditary noblity (the hereditary title Count of Orange-Nassau was bestowed on Friso) but with no succession rights.

Only the sons of Queen Beatrix have been allowed to pass on the name of Orange-Nassau.
 
When did the grandchildren of the Dutch Monarch on the male line be styled "counts and countesses"??? When did this happen. I dont think it was like that historically. They should've also been Prince ans Princesses.
 
Their haven't been any male line grand children in well over 100 years. So, it would be hard to tell what the precident was for male line grand children.



Willem III (1817-1890) was the last male monarch. He was actually the last male member of the Dutch Royal House that didn't marry into it. He was predeceased by his sons Willem 1840-1879, Maurits 1843-1850, and Alexander 1851-1884. It as his youngest child and only daugter Wilhelmina that succeeded him. There have been only females from the time of Wilhelmina until the daughters of Queen Juliana had sons.

They would have been prince/ss but the government downsized the family and even put a cap on the succession.
 
The goverment of the Netherlands wanted that the children of Contstantijn and later Friso would have a other tittle than Prince or Princess. They thought that there were too many princes and princesses, and the goverment had to be responsible for the royals. At that time there were 17 members of the royal family.
If Willem Alexander becomes a king, the Magriet line will not be a part of the royal house anymore, The tittles of Magriet´s children are also not hereditary.
And so the goverment gave the tittle count and countess to the grandchildren of queen Beatrix, except for the children of Willem ALexander
 
The Royal Family is different than the Royal House in the Netherlands. The government has ministerial responsiblity for only the royal House not the Family. The royal family is quite large and includes all the queen's sisters and also their children/grand children while the royal house is regulated to those with succession rights and their spouses (plus ex-monarch and spouse).
 
1. By Royal Decree of February 16th, 1966 is declared that the children from this marriage (then Crown Princess Beatrix and Prince Claus) would bear the style and title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer (Jonkvrouwe) van Amsberg.

2. By Royal Decree of January 25th, 2002 is declared that the children from this marriage (Crown Prince Willem-Alexander and Crown Princess Maxima) will bear the style and title HRH Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands, Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau.

3. The marriage of Prince Johan Friso to Mabel Wisse Smit was conducted without the necessary permission of the Parliament. Prince Johan Friso was therefore automatically declined of the right of succession for himself and his descendants.

By Royal Decree of March 19th is declared that from the moment of his marriage Prince Johan Friso retained the personal title Prince of Orange-Nassau with the style Royal Highness and received the hereditary title count as well as the surname "van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.

4. By Royal Decree of May 11th, 2001 is declared that the children from this marriage (Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentein) will bear the title Graaf if male (Gravin if female) van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer if male (Jonkvrouwe if female) van Amsberg.

A distinction is made in the Netherlands between the royal house and the royal family. Not every member of the Orange-Nassau family is a member of the royal house. Membership of the royal house is restricted by Act of Parliament to the head of state, the former head of state, the members of the royal family in line for the throne, and their spouses. The monarch is head of the royal house. The present royal house consists of Queen Beatrix and her sons - Princes Willem-Alexander and Constantijn, Princess Catharina-Amalia, the daughter of Prince Willem-Alexander, countess Eloise and count Claus-Casimir, the daughter and son of Prince Constantijn, the Queen's father Prince Bernhard, the Queen's younger sister Princess Margriet, her husband Mr Pieter van Vollenhoven, and their four sons Princes Maurits, Bernhard, Pieter-Christiaan and Floris, and the Princesses Máxima, Laurentien, Marilène and Annette.
 
But is that Princess Margriet title is still Her Royal Highness Princess Margriet of The Netherlands?So how about Irene?We still call her "Princess" and as sister of Queen Beatrix so is she still Her Royal Highness like in England the late Princess Margaret was as the Queen sister and she had title Her Royal Highness?
 
officially Irene and Christina are still HRH and Princesses of The Netherlands. However, Irene prefers to be referred to as mrs. van Lippe-Biesterfield.
Prince Johan-Friso kept his HRH (as son of a reigning Queen) but lost the title 'Prince of the Netherlands', another system to title members of the RF (it is such a mess). He is also made Count of Orange-Nassau, otherwise his family could not inherit that title. The queen can only ennoble members of the Royal House, which Luana is not. So in order for her to get a title the queen had to give her secondd son a hereditairy title. In contrast, the children of Prince Constantijn, who are still part of the Royal House, were created Counts of Orange-Nassau themselves.
 
Marengo said:
officially Irene and Christina are still HRH and Princesses of The Netherlands. However, Irene prefers to be referred to as mrs. van Lippe-Biesterfield.
Prince Johan-Friso kept his HRH (as son of a reigning Queen) but lost the title 'Prince of the Netherlands', another system to title members of the RF (it is such a mess). He is also made Count of Orange-Nassau, otherwise his family could not inherit that title. The queen can only ennoble members of the Royal House, which Luana is not. So in order for her to get a title the queen had to give her secondd son a hereditairy title. In contrast, the children of Prince Constantijn, who are still part of the Royal House, were created Counts of Orange-Nassau themselves.
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This is indeed very confusing Marengo! And here I thought I had a pretty good grasp of titles in the Dutch royal family. Could you or anyone else break down the present names and titles of the various members of the royal family and the Queen's family?

For example, I know that Maurits' children carry the surname of Lippe-Biesterfield after Prince Bernhard, since he had only daughters no sons to carry on his name, while Maurits' brother Bernhard Jr.'s two kids carry the surname of van Vollenhoven. What are the surnames of Christina and Irene's children? Guillermo and Bourbon-Parma -- but do they carry any Dutch names or titles, too?
 
I will give it a try:

Prince Claus received the title HRH Prince of The Netherlands by royal decree.

Crownprince = HRH the prince of Orange, Prince of the Netherlands (oficially they never use the title crownprince) His last name is 'van Oranje-Nassau'.

Maxima = HRH Princess Maxima of The Netherlands (NOT Princess of Orange) by royal decree.

Alexia, Amalia, Margriet, Constantijn are HRH Prince(sse)s of The Netherlands by birth and with successionrights, their surnames are 'van Oranje-Nassau'.

Irene and Christina lost their rights but are still officially HRH Princesses of The Netherlands

Johan-Friso is HRH Prince of Orange-Nassau, Count of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg (note that both his brothers are NOT Counts of Orange-Nassau The last two title are are hereditairy, can only be passed by males. He did not stay HRH Prince of The Netherlands, like his aunts.

Princess Mabel is HH Princess Mabel of Orange-Nassau, by courtesey. Not an HRH like her husband

Luana did not receive any personal title but she is Countess van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouwe van Amstberg because that part of her fathers title is hereditairy. With the surname 'van Oranje-Nassau van Amstberg'

Laurentien is HRH Princess Laurentien of the Netherlands due to her marriage, NOT a royal decree like Maxima, so if she divorces she will lose the title.

Claus-Casimir and Eloise were both CREATED Counts of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer/vrouw van Amstberg with the surname 'van Oranje-Nassau-van Amstberg'. Notice that the only distinction between these 2 and Luana is that CC and E were created Counts. That they are in line of the throne and Luana is not doesn't make a difference to the titles.

Now, Prof. Pieter van Vollenhoven did not receive a title at all (contrairy to Prince Claus).

Maurits, Bernhard, Pieter-Christiaan and Floris are HH Princes of Orange-Nassau, their wives can use their husbands title: HRH Princess of Orange-Nassau. The titles are personal, not hereditairy. And there is no distinction made between members of the royal house (Maurits, marilene, Bernhard, Annette) and the people who are not members of the Royal House (Pieter-Christiaan, Anita, Floris, Aimee). They all bear the surnae 'van Oranje-Nassau'. Notice that Johan Friso bears the same title but is an HRH. Mabel has the HH as well.

The children of Maurits do not inherit any title (in contrast, the children of Friso and Constantijn do) and bear the surname 'van Lippe-Biesterfield-van Vollenhoven'.

The children of Bernhard, PC and Floris are/ will eb surnamed just 'van Vollenhoven', without any hereditairy title as well.

The children of Princess Christina do not have any title at all and have their fathers last name, Guillermo. This in contrast to Luana who was created countess by the Queen. The Bourbon-Parma's are incorperated in the dutch nobility as HRH Princes de Bourbon-Parme, but they do not have any dutch title as Luana has.

Now, if anybody sees any sence in this mess I applaud him/her as to me it seems utterly rediculous. Especially strange is it that so many parents have other surnames then their children.
The thing which buggs me most is that Margriets grand children have no title at all. They could have made the van Vollenhoven name noble, let's say Count Pieter van Vollenhoven, etc. His family was already a parician family, so it wouldn't have been to strange. Another thing which annoys me is that there is no distinction between Luana and Claus-Casimir/Eloise.
 
Thanks very much Marengo for trying to sort out everything. The last name thing is very confusing, but what I find most confusing is who amongst this group is an HRH or HH and what titles are inherited and which ones are not.

I do agree that the van Vollenhoven grandchildren should be granted some sort of nobility-equivalent titles (do the Dutch have a nobility?). I think the services of their grandparents, Margriet and Pieter has been extraordinary and I think it would be nice for there to be some more permanent, long-lasting record of that service in future decades to come when the van Vollenhoven family will be less of a presence as Willem and Constantijn's children get older and take on a more active role in the monarchy.
 
Yes, I believe the Dutch have a nobility. Didn't Willem-Alexander's former girlfriend, Emily, marry Dutch count? I believe Maxima's good friend from Argentina married into the Dutch nobility also.
 
Thanks for explaining all that, Marengo. It is very complicated, but it makes sense.

I disagree with previous posters in that I think the Van Vollenhoven grandchildren need no titles. They are very far from the throne and it complicates things too much to have such a huge nobility. If they had titles, then they could pass them on and eventually everyone would be noble in some right or another! I think it is wise to limit the royal and noble titles (much like was done in Denmark) because it is more efficient and no one wants it to be like Saudi Arabia with about 500 princes running around. Royal and noble titles must be exclusive or they mean nothing.
 
Marengo said:
The thing which buggs me most is that Margriets grand children have no title at all. They could have made the van Vollenhoven name noble, let's say Count Pieter van Vollenhoven, etc. His family was already a parician family, so it wouldn't have been to strange. Another thing which annoys me is that there is no distinction between Luana and Claus-Casimir/Eloise.
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First, yes, thanks Marengo for taking the time to figure/write this all out. Yikes it is confusing, and I have learned a lot (whether I can remember it all is another thing).

Regarding Margriet's grandchildren, is there a possibility that Margriet & Pieter have actively discouraged the Queen from giving Pieter any title of nobility because they want their grandchildren to at least have the possibility of a "normal" life? There have been so many unwarranted invasions of the privacy of their sons & their families (most recently honeymoon pictures of Floris) that maybe they hope if their grandchildren don't hold any noble titles then the press will leave them alone.

I think Beatrix is very grateful for the contributions that Pieter has made over the years. Now that dear Claus is gone, I see Pieter as sort of the patriarch of the family in a way. And, as we have seen many times, he is a wonderful escort to the Queen during many of her public engagements. (He is in fact so good, that in Canada, one of our most respected and knowledgeable journalists at the CBC incorrectly identified him during the remembrance ceremony at Groesbeek in May, as the Queen's husband!!!)

I just find it hard to believe that Beatrix wouldn't have by now offered him a higher title than just "Mr." or "Prof." (or as the official website now calls him - Prof. Mr. Pieter ...)
 
Marengo, I totally agree with you! What a mess! I always found that it didn't make any sense at all, that whole Dutch title thing. Thanks for explaining it (to the highest possible degree :confused:) because I know finally have a little sense of how our royals are supposed to be called... :rolleyes:
 
There was a book about Pieter a few years ago by Dorine ...(forgot the last name) and apparently it was Beatrix and Bernhard who were against Pieter getting a title in the 60-ties (or early seventies). I believe Juliana had the wish to create him Prince of The Netherlands as well, but Bernhard and Beatrix were afraid for the precedent that this would create (as they clearly do not stick to any precedent it was an unjustified fear). I think it was more the principle that counted then their personal feelings about Pieter.

I believe there was also some talk of making him a count of something, but it was considered hopelessly outdated and only Juliana was in favour (nothing is known about the feelings of Pieter and Margriet, but they probably do not ind to much, they seem a modest couple)

The book however suggests that in the 70-ties there was not to much love lost between Beatrix and Pieter. To what extend this is true I cannot know (neither can the author). The author however aknowledges that the present relations between Beatrix and Pieter are very well, they seem to have fun together and Beatrix once publically thanked him and her sister for all the support they gave her during her reign. She also recently offered Pieter the highest order, she usually bestows on heads of state. This is a clear sign of her respect for Pieter and her aknowledgement for his contributions to the monarchy and to the country (and well deserved!).

To spiffyballerina: in Denmark the sons of Joachim and Alexandra are HH Princes of Denmark. The daughters of Prince Ingolf (or his brother) are Countesses of Rosenborg, like other family members further away from the throne. So they DO receive titles. I agree that there should be a restriction to the HRH Princes of The Netherlands title, but making Margriets grandchildren Counts van Vollenhoven wouldn't hurt anybody.

I would suggest that the sons daughters of the King/Queen and of the hweir are HRH Princes of The Netherlands, the persons in the 2nd line like Eloise, CC, Maurits etc are HH Princes of Orange-Nassau, and give their children a noble title like in Denmark, counts of something. This way the distinction is clear.

To squidgy: I do not think that for the press it makes a difference if they are titled or not, what count is their looks and how close to the monarch they are. Take for example Carlotte Casiraghi and Zara Phillips, who do not have a title but who get more attention in the press then for example HH Princess Elisabeth of Denmark. I think that the press attention for the van Vollenhovens will fade away with time. They are all perfectly able to live a private live now as well, eventhough with some intrusions (not to many). Only the attention for Marilene and Maurits remains higher then for the others, mainly because of their good looks I think.

To Alexandria: The only people who have a title which their children can inherit are Friso and Claus-Casimir, Counts van Oranje-Nassau van Amstberg.

To samitude: Emily Bremers, the ex girlfriend of WA married Jonkheer Roderik van der Wijck (a squire/Lord), Samantha Deane (friend of Maxima) married a Baron Rengers and the ex girlfriend of both Friso and Maurits, Elisabeth Fabius (daughter of general Fabius) married an italian Prince.
 
Marengo said:
To squidgy: I do not think that for the press it makes a difference if they are titled or not, what count is their looks and how close to the monarch they are. Take for example Carlotte Casiraghi and Zara Phillips, who do not have a title but who get more attention in the press then for example HH Princess Elisabeth of Denmark. I think that the press attention for the van Vollenhovens will fade away with time. They are all perfectly able to live a private live now as well, eventhough with some intrusions (not to many). Only the attention for Marilene and Maurits remains higher then for the others, mainly because of their good looks I think.
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Marengo, we sure kept you busy with the above posts.:D Thanks for your in-depth, thoughtful response.

Yes, you have a good point - physical appearances and how close one is in line of succession do likely to a large extent determine how much press attention one receives. However, I think the mere act of having a title does also mean that you are more likely to receive more press exposure. Look at the British tabloids (if you dare :eek:). They are always talking about Lord X who has a drug problem, or Lady Y who is having an affair. Even if they are Lords & Ladies that the average Brit has never heard of, they still make it into the papers, I think mainly because they are titled. So personally, I think it is good that Margriet & Pieter's grandchildren do not have titles.

Marengo said:
She also recently offered Pieter the highest order, she usually bestows on heads of state. This is a clear sign of her respect for Pieter and her aknowledgement for his contributions to the monarchy and to the country (and well deserved!).
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That's neat - I never heard that before. When did this happen and did it change the way Pieter is addressed?
 
Marengo said:
There was a book about Pieter a few years ago...
The book however suggests that in the 70-ties there was not to much love lost between Beatrix and Pieter.
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Now I'm interested ! What did the author say was the cause of this fight?
 
Squidgy said:
Marengo, we sure kept you busy with the above posts.:D Thanks for your in-depth, thoughtful response.

Yes, you have a good point - physical appearances and how close one is in line of succession do likely to a large extent determine how much press attention one receives. However, I think the mere act of having a title does also mean that you are more likely to receive more press exposure. Look at the British tabloids (if you dare :eek:). They are always talking about Lord X who has a drug problem, or Lady Y who is having an affair. Even if they are Lords & Ladies that the average Brit has never heard of, they still make it into the papers, I think mainly because they are titled. So personally, I think it is good that Margriet & Pieter's grandchildren do not have titles.

That's neat - I never heard that before. When did this happen and did it change the way Pieter is addressed?
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I believe it happened one or two years ago, the order did not change anything, it is just a blue/orange sah he can use now instead of the orange one.

In the Netherlands no nobility is known actually. We have a very equalitarian society and people do not care that much about nobles, so they never feature in any magazine. Furthermore most nobles professionally do not use their titles.
 
SpiffyBallerina said:
Now I'm interested ! What did the author say was the cause of this fight?
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I didn't read the book, but only know what was written in the press about it, so I cannot help you that much. It was not a fight however, more some slight coldness/ dislike? (NB According to the author, not me).
 
So how many different ways of styling does the family have at present? I believe it is a great mess without much logic at the moment.
 
Helena said:
So how many different ways of styling does the family have at present? I believe it is a great mess without much logic at the moment.
Click to expand...

children of Queen Beatrix and Prince Claus:
HRH Prince/Princess of the Netherlands, Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer/Jonkvrou van Amsberg

Prince Friso lost his title Prince of the Netherlands because he married without the consent of the parliament and was created a Count of Orange-Nassau which is heriditary in the male line

children of Prince Willem-Alexander:
HRH Prince/Princess of the Netherlands, Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau

children of Prince Friso and Prince Constantijn:
Count/Countess of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer/Jonkvrouw van Amsberg

children of Princess Margriet:
HH Prince/Princess of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven (this titles are personal and not heriditary)

daughters of Queen Juliana:
HRH Princess of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Princess zur Lippe-Biesterfeld

Princess Irene and Pricness Christina keept her title Princess of the Netherlands when the married without the consent of the Parliament (in contrary to their nephew Friso) because the act of the membeship of the Royal House was changed later so that members of the royal House who marry without the Consnet of the Parliament lose this title.
 
And to create even more confusion: Princess Irene refers to herself as plain Miss van Lippe Biesterfeld. The children of Parince Maurits have the last name van Lippe Biesterfeld van Vollenhoven, while those of his brothers are just plain van Vollenhoven.

I believe the titles of the children of Friso and Constantijn were slightly different too, something to do with the van Amsberg part, but I don´t have time to look that up now.

In over-all the royal family has about 10 different ways of styling, which is a mess indeed.
 
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