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  #101  
Old 04-25-2021, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If Queen Juliana had at least two sons and at least one daughter, is it clear what titles the children of her younger sons and the children of her daughters would have received, assuming that the Queen's children all married after 1963 and received permission to marry from Parliament?

I am taking for granted that even in a scenario where Queen Juliana had sons, the succession law would still have been revised in 1963, but please correct me if my assumption is wrong.
Are you referring to the succession law of 1983 (so 20 years later!)? I assume that the eldest son would have been the king (even if a daughter would be the eldest child).

I don't think we can say for certain what titles they would have had as things could always change based on circumstances (such as Margriet's children being given personal titles as the children of the 'spare') but theoretically I would say the children of a younger son would have been royal highnesses prince(ss) of the Netherlands, prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau, prince(ss) of Lippe-Biesterfeld. This would follow the example of the titles of the children of prince Frederik, second son of king Willem I; as this prince would himself hold these titles and would be able to pass them on.

Whether in that case they would have felt the need for the children of the daughter to also be titled is questionable. That would most likely have depended on whom they married (another royal or nobleman?) and whether they would have remained in line of succession (it seems they felt the need that those in line to the throne needed to be titled).
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  #102  
Old 04-25-2021, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If Queen Juliana had at least two sons and at least one daughter, is it clear what titles the children of her younger sons and the children of her daughters would have received, assuming that the Queen's children all married after 1963 and received permission to marry from Parliament?

I am taking for granted that even in a scenario where Queen Juliana had sons, the succession law would still have been revised in 1963, but please correct me if my assumption is wrong.
DECREE of January 8th, 1937, State Gazette 5, concerning the name to be borne by the children of Her Royal Highness Princess Juliana

We WILHELMINA, by the grace of God Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Etc., Etc., Etc.

Desiring that the name of the family from which We originate and to which memories are attached, so dear to Us and to People of the Netherlands, will also be preserved for the children of Our beloved daughter, and considering that this longing is shared by Our daughter and her consort:

On the recommendation of Our Minister of Justice of January 4th, 1937, Cabinet No. 487, H;

Have approved and understood, as We approve and understand herewith:

To consent that the name Orange-Nassau shall be borne by all the children of Our beloved daughter, with and in addition to the name which they take from the family of their father, it being understood that the latter name shall precede the name so that the said children, without prejudice to the title of Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands and their future titles, will be called Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau, Prince (Princess) of Lippe-Biesterfeld.

Our Minister of Justice is charged with the implementation of this Decree, which will be published on a date to be determined in the Official Gazette and in the Government Gazette.

The Hague, the 8th of January 1937.

WILHELMINA.
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  #103  
Old 04-25-2021, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
DECREE of January 8th, 1937, State Gazette 5, concerning the name to be borne by the children of Her Royal Highness Princess Juliana

We WILHELMINA, by the grace of God Queen of the Netherlands, Princess of Orange-Nassau, Etc., Etc., Etc.

Desiring that the name of the family from which We originate and to which memories are attached, so dear to Us and to People of the Netherlands, will also be preserved for the children of Our beloved daughter, and considering that this longing is shared by Our daughter and her consort:

On the recommendation of Our Minister of Justice of January 4th, 1937, Cabinet No. 487, H;

Have approved and understood, as We approve and understand herewith:

To consent that the name Orange-Nassau shall be borne by all the children of Our beloved daughter, with and in addition to the name which they take from the family of their father, it being understood that the latter name shall precede the name so that the said children, without prejudice to the title of Prince (Princess) of the Netherlands and their future titles, will be called Prince (Princess) of Orange-Nassau, Prince (Princess) of Lippe-Biesterfeld.

Our Minister of Justice is charged with the implementation of this Decree, which will be published on a date to be determined in the Official Gazette and in the Government Gazette.

The Hague, the 8th of January 1937.

WILHELMINA.
Thanks for this. However, Maria Tatiana's question was not about Juliana's children (as we all know what their titles were as that scenario did play out) but about her grandchildren if she had had not only daughters but also (younger) sons (a scenario that did not play out). What is you take on that?
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  #104  
Old 04-25-2021, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks for this. However, Maria Tatiana's question was not about Juliana's children (as we all know what their titles were as that scenario did play out) but about her grandchildren if she had had not only daughters but also (younger) sons (a scenario that did not play out). What is you take on that?
What did happen to the children of Queen Juliana was repeated for the children of Princess Beatrix. And I assume the title Prince of the Netherlands would be limited to those related to a King within three degrees of consanguity.

This would mean Princes and Princesses of Orange-Nassau, Princes and Princesses of Lippe-Biesterfeld walking around in a junior line.
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  #105  
Old 04-25-2021, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
What did happen to the children of Queen Juliana was repeated for the children of Princess Beatrix. And I assume the title Prince of the Netherlands would be limited to those related to a King within three degrees of consanguity.

This would mean Princes and Princesses of Orange-Nassau, Princes and Princesses of Lippe-Biesterfeld walking around in a junior line.
But they are the children of the heir/monarch, and TM's question was specifically about the younger children. How the Dutch go about titles for children of a female heir is rather clear (although strange enough Willem-Alexander's children didn't get the 'van Amsberg' unlike their cousins).

So, are you saying that you think that unlike previous generations, the children of a prince of the Netherlands (younger son) would not have been given the title 'prince of the Netherlands' in the 60's but only been princes and princesses of Orange-Nassau and Lippe-Biesterfeld? And would their descendants in male-line still be princes and princesses (of both O-N and L-B)? That would make most sense to me but would have created a rather strange situation with Friso's and Constantijn's childeren being mere count(esse)s and grandchildren of a fictional prince Christian (younger son of queen Juliana) being prince(sse)s of Orange-Nassau. Or maybe, they would have decided differently on at least Constantijn's children had that been the case.
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  #106  
Old 04-25-2021, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
But they are the children of the heir/monarch, and TM's question was specifically about the younger children. How the Dutch go about titles for children of a female heir is rather clear (although strange enough Willem-Alexander's children didn't get the 'van Amsberg' unlike their cousins).

So, are you saying that you think that unlike previous generations, the children of a prince of the Netherlands (younger son) would not have been given the title 'prince of the Netherlands' in the 60's but only been princes and princesses of Orange-Nassau and Lippe-Biesterfeld? And would their descendants in male-line still be princes and princesses (of both O-N and L-B)? That would make most sense to me but would have created a rather strange situation with Friso's and Constantijn's childeren being mere count(esse)s and grandchildren of a fictional prince Christian (younger son of queen Juliana) being prince(sse)s of Orange-Nassau. Or maybe, they would have decided differently on at least Constantijn's children had that been the case.
Yes because in 1920 the Constitution was altered so that only descendants of Queen Wilhelmina and no furtherer than three degrees of consanguity can be princes of the Royal House. So the scenario of ongoing unlimited princes of the Netherlands was already not possible. Later in 2002 it was even further limited to two degrees of consanguity of a King.
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  #107  
Old 04-25-2021, 04:21 PM
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Thank you both for the interesting discussion. I hope it can continue.

To clarify the succession laws, which potentially affected decisions on titles, and my assumptions about them:

I assume that Queen Juliana having sons and daughters would not have altered the history of the succession laws, and the alterations which took place in our history in 1963 and 1983 would still have taken place in 1963 and 1983 in my hypothetical scenario. Please correct me if that assumption is wrong.

I am also assuming that in the hypothetical scenario, Queen Juliana's children would all have married (with parliamentary permission) and had children after the 1963 alteration but before the 1983 alteration, so that the titles of the Queen's grandchildren might be affected by the changes of 1963 but would definitely not be affected by the changes of 1983.

This is the law of succession as it was from 1963 to 1983:
https://www.denederlandsegrondwet.nl...r/vi7obqqpnazm

An older sister and her descendants would be superseded by her younger brother and his descendants, but not by further male relatives or their descendants. The line of succession was limited to three degrees of consanguinity of the current monarch. Those who married without acquiring the permission of Parliament lost their right to the throne and their descendants had no place in the line of succession.

The Constitution did not legislate titles or membership of the Royal House.
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  #108  
Old 04-25-2021, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you both for the interesting discussion. I hope it can continue.

To clarify the succession laws, which potentially affected decisions on titles, and my assumptions about them:

I assume that Queen Juliana having sons and daughters would not have altered the history of the succession laws, and the alterations which took place in our history in 1963 and 1983 would still have taken place in 1963 and 1983 in my hypothetical scenario. Please correct me if that assumption is wrong.

I am also assuming that in the hypothetical scenario, Queen Juliana's children would all have married (with parliamentary permission) and had children after the 1963 alteration but before the 1983 alteration, so that the titles of the Queen's grandchildren might be affected by the changes of 1963 but would definitely not be affected by the changes of 1983.

This is the law of succession as it was from 1963 to 1983:
https://www.denederlandsegrondwet.nl...r/vi7obqqpnazm

An older sister and her descendants would be superseded by her younger brother and his descendants, but not by further male relatives or their descendants. The line of succession was limited to three degrees of consanguinity of the current monarch. Those who married without acquiring the permission of Parliament lost their right to the throne and their descendants had no place in the line of succession.

The Constitution did not legislate titles or membership of the Royal House.
Thanks for this clarification.

Regarding titles, given that titles for members of the royal house/family were not specifically regulated, my assumption would be that for male-line descendants the 'regular' rules of nobility would apply; i.e., that titles would be passed on in male-line (for children born within legitimate marriages). The reason that a specific decree was required for Juliana and Bernhard's children imo was that they needed to make sure that their children would also (and first) receive their mother's titles. I assume the same was done for Wilhelmina's own children who were not just 'duke/duchess of Mecklenburg'; but first prince(ss) of the Netherlands; and prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau.

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Yes because in 1920 the Constitution was altered so that only descendants of Queen Wilhelmina and no furtherer than three degrees of consanguity can be princes of the Royal House. So the scenario of ongoing unlimited princes of the Netherlands was already not possible. Later in 2002 it was even further limited to two degrees of consanguity of a King.
Was the title of 'prince(ss) of the Netherlands' specifically tied to membership of the royal house at that time? I know it is nowadays (it is the reason that prince Friso lost this title upon marriage).

At least at that time being a member of the royal house was tied to being in line of succession to the throne. Since 2002 membership of the royal house and being in line to the throne has been decoupled in that those in three degrees remain in line to the throne but are no longer members of the royal house.

Nonetheless, 3 degrees of consanguity would still mean that great-grandchildren could be prince(ss) of the Netherlands. In practice, the title 'prince(ss) of the Netherlands' with predicate of royal highness has now been reduced to 1st degree to either the monarch or the heir (or most likely the heir's heir if applicable).
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  #109  
Old 04-25-2021, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The counts von Merenberg were 100% Nassaus, but because Natalia Alexandrovna Pushkina was seen as a mésalliance for a Prince of Nassau, the descendants of that marriage were known as Counts and Countesses von Merenberg instead of Princes and Princesses of Nassau.

There has been a big dispute on the succession and the vast House of Nassau wealth when Marie-Adélaïde did succeed the throne of Luxembourg and in the end the Luxembourg Parliament agreed to pay an annual sum of 40.000 gold Marks to the Nassaus, eh... "Merenbergs" as compensation for their lost rights. (Similar to the compensation given to Arveprins Knud and his son Prince Ingolf in Denmark, when they lost their succession rights in the 1950's).

I thought Count Merenberg could not prove his mother had been lawfully divorced before she married the prince of Nassau and that the missing documentation of the divorce was the reason the Count accepted the ruling that the Grand-dukeship and the Nassau-estate should stay with Grand-Duke Adolph's line?
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  #110  
Old 04-25-2021, 07:03 PM
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The family history of the Kings Grand-Dukes lacks junior male lineages, it is not helpful to us to have some precedents:

King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of the Netherlands had one younger adult son:

Prince Frederik of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
x Princess Louise of Prussia
=
No adult son

King Willem II of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of the Netherlands had two younger adult sons:

Prince Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
= remained unmarried

Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
x 1 - Princess Amalia of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach
= no children
x 2 - Princess Maria of Prussia
= no children

King Willem III of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of the Netherlands had two adult sons:

Prince Willem of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
= remained unmarried

Prince Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
= remained unmarried
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  #111  
Old 04-25-2021, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The family history of the Kings Grand-Dukes lacks junior male lineages, it is not helpful to us to have some precedents:

King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of the Netherlands had one younger adult son:

Prince Frederik of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
x Princess Louise of Prussia
=
No adult son


King Willem II of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of the Netherlands had two younger adult sons:

Prince Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
= remained unmarried

Prince Hendrik of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
x 1 - Princess Amalia of Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach
= no children
x 2 - Princess Maria of Prussia
= no children

King Willem III of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of the Netherlands had two adult sons:

Prince Willem of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
= remained unmarried

Prince Alexander of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau
= remained unmarried
I agree that we don't have an example of 'great-grandchildren' in male-line; which indeed would have helped us to get a better idea how they would have handled such a situation. However, because of Frederik we do know which titles grandchildren in male-line of a younger son had: his four children were prince(ss) of the Netherlands and prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau (and his eldest subsequently became queen of Sweden).
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  #112  
Old 04-25-2021, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Regarding titles, given that titles for members of the royal house/family were not specifically regulated, my assumption would be that for male-line descendants the 'regular' rules of nobility would apply; i.e., that titles would be passed on in male-line (for children born within legitimate marriages).
Then you believe there would not have been any specific regulation by royal decree superseding regular nobility rules for the children of Queen Juliana's younger sons, as happened with the children of Prince Constantijn a generation later?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Was the title of 'prince(ss) of the Netherlands' specifically tied to membership of the royal house at that time? I know it is nowadays (it is the reason that prince Friso lost this title upon marriage).

At least at that time being a member of the royal house was tied to being in line of succession to the throne. [...]
Tied by tradition or by law? To my knowledge, the 2002 Membership of the Royal House Act was the first and only legislation to regulate royal titles generally rather than for a specific marriage, and only the second law (following the 1985 Membership of the Royal House Act) to generally regulate membership of the Royal House.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The reason that a specific decree was required for Juliana and Bernhard's children imo was that they needed to make sure that their children would also (and first) receive their mother's titles. I assume the same was done for Wilhelmina's own children who were not just 'duke/duchess of Mecklenburg'; but first prince(ss) of the Netherlands; and prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau.
Interestingly, the decrees for future descendants (not only children!) of Queen Wilhelmina and for future children of Princess Juliana were strictly speaking about bestowing a family name, with the titles mentioned (but not conferred by the decree) to provide clarity on the order of precedence of titles and family names. (Duc_et_Pair kindly posted the decree for Princess Juliana's children a few posts above, and the decree for Queen Wilhelmina's descendants is posted in her husband's thread.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I agree that we don't have an example of 'great-grandchildren' in male-line; which indeed would have helped us to get a better idea how they would have handled such a situation. However, because of Frederik we do know which titles grandchildren in male-line of a younger son had: his four children were prince(ss) of the Netherlands and prince(ss) of Orange-Nassau (and his eldest subsequently became queen of Sweden).
One difference (and I know it was not the point you and Duc_et_Pair were addressing) is that the children of Prince Frederik were expected to keep their rights of succession for life. Assuming the 1963 changes would have still happened, the children of Queen Juliana's hypothetical younger sons would have been expected to lose their succession rights on the accession of King Willem-Alexander (in this scenario, the oldest son of Queen Juliana's oldest son). Duc_et_Pair seems to believe this would matter; do you see it differently?
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  #113  
Old 04-26-2021, 01:58 AM
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Yes. That is my theory. The cadet male lines would continue to be Prince of Orange-Nassau, Duke of Mecklenburg resp. Prince of Orange-Nassau, Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld, resp. Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg but the title Prince of the Netherlands would have been limited. I am sure.

Later even the title Prince of Orange-Nassau has been limited for cadet lines, like also has been done in Denmark:
graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
greve (komtesse) af Montpezat

And now Delphine seems to be a de Saxe-Cobourg, I can see Belgium going the same way: prins / prinses van Saksen-Coburg for children of junior sons of a monarch or heir.
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  #114  
Old 04-27-2021, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Yes. That is my theory. The cadet male lines would continue to be Prince of Orange-Nassau, Duke of Mecklenburg resp. Prince of Orange-Nassau, Prince of Lippe-Biesterfeld, resp. Prince of Orange-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg but the title Prince of the Netherlands would have been limited. I am sure.
Do you believe then that they would have been "only" Princes(ses) of Orange-Nassau and Lippe-Biesterfeld from birth, or would they have been Prince(ss) of the Netherlands until they lost their places in the succession?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Later even the title Prince of Orange-Nassau has been limited for cadet lines, like also has been done in Denmark:
graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg
greve (komtesse) af Montpezat

And now Delphine seems to be a de Saxe-Cobourg, I can see Belgium going the same way: prins / prinses van Saksen-Coburg for children of junior sons of a monarch or heir.
We must wait to see whether Denmark will limit prince(ss)ly titles in cadet lines. From 1853 until the present, every person in the line of succession has been a Prince(ss) of Denmark.

King Philippe intended male-line grandchildren of junior sons to be Prince(ss) of Saxe-Coburg. For that reason he passed the royal decree of 2015 limiting the "of Belgium" title and restoring the so-called "other titles to which their ancestry gives them the right", which he intended to designate the Saxe-Coburg titles in the case of male-line grandchildren. (I must finish writing my explanation of the decree at some point.)


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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I often wondered why Princess Mabel is not styled Dowager Princess of Orange-Nassau or is that term out of use now by the Dutch Monarchy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In the Nobility of the three Benelux countries the word Douairière exists to designate widows of titled gentlemen but it is seldom or never used anymore. Like the word Freule exists to designate unmarried daughters of titled gentlemen but is seldom or never used anymore.
If the style of Dowager had still been in use I don't think it would be used by Mabel. Her late husband never was "the" Prince of Orange-Nassau, but only a younger son styled Prince Friso of Orange-Nassau. As a result, Mabel was never styled The Princess of Orange-Nassau and would not need to adopt the Dowager style to communicate that she was no longer the wife of the current head of the family.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The wife of the Prince of Orange is no longer known as the Princess of Orange. Under the Wet Lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis of 2002, the title of Princess of Orange is reserved to the heiress presumptive to the Dutch throne.

The Wet Lidmaatschap Koninklijk Huis of 2002 actually did not limit the social practice of wives taking their husbands' titles by courtesy. Otherwise, Laurentien could not have taken the courtesy title Princess of the Netherlands, because Article 8 of the law reserves the creation of the title Prince(ss) of the Netherlands to spouses and children of the monarch and the heir as well as persons given membership of the Royal House by a special decree under Article 4 (which does not apply to Laurentien).

Nonetheless, the government decided that Máxima should not be addressed as Princess of Orange in order to reserve its usage for future crown princesses.
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