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  #181  
Old 07-15-2020, 01:55 AM
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indeed in other articles 1904 is mentioned as '"the first time the speech is held outside the 'ridderzaal' (hall of knights) since 1904"
but apparently that's not quite correct either
https://www.staten-generaal.nl/histo...is_prinsjesdag

"In 2004 it was not the 101st time that the Throne Speech was read in the Ridderzaal. In 1907, when a large international conference was held in the Ridderzaal, and in 1911, when the Queen was unable to attend, the Speech from the Throne was not read in the Ridderzaal. During the German occupation, from 1940-1945, the States General were unable to meet and Queen Wilhelmina stayed in London."
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  #182  
Old 07-15-2020, 02:07 AM
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Its not that its the first time no festivities were held. Its that its the first time since 1904 that the public is not included.

1940-45 there were no events at all for the public to attend.

In 1974 they were toned down, but the public was still involved.

This is the first time that the event will be held, but that the public is excluded.
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  #183  
Old 07-20-2020, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Its not that its the first time no festivities were held. Its that its the first time since 1904 that the public is not included.

1940-45 there were no events at all for the public to attend.

In 1974 they were toned down, but the public was still involved.

This is the first time that the event will be held, but that the public is excluded.
In 1974 there was a terrorist hostage issue at the Indonesian Embassy in The Hague and Juliana didn´t want to use the Golden Coach so came by car
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  #184  
Old 08-07-2020, 04:28 AM
eya eya is offline
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Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien are not at Prinsjesdag this year:

"Prince Constantijn and his wife, princess Laurentien, will not attend the Speech to the Throne of their brother (in-law), King Willem-Alexander in September. Covid-19 is the reason behind this decision, made by the president of the States General and the Senate, Jan Anthonie Bruijn. Guests – members of the Senate and the House of Representatives are not allowed to bring a guest, as they usually do. For Queen Máxima has been made an exception. King Willem-Alexander told: ‘she is playing a part in the constitutional frame, so she will be joining.’ Due to the pandemic, the location has been changed to the Great or St. James’ Church in The Hague, no carriage rides will be held, neither will the royal family wave from the balcony of Noordeinde Palace."

https://royalinsider.nl/uniek-consta...p-prinsjesdag/
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  #185  
Old 08-10-2020, 06:06 AM
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For Queen Máxima has been made an exception. King Willem-Alexander told: ‘she is playing a part in the constitutional frame, so she will be joining.’
[...]
https://royalinsider.nl/uniek-consta...p-prinsjesdag/
I don't understand the King's explanation. What constitutional role is assigned to the spouse of the monarch?
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  #186  
Old 08-10-2020, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I don't understand the King's explanation. What constitutional role is assigned to the spouse of the monarch?
the text in dutch is:
Koningin Máxima is de enige partner van een aanwezige die wél mag komen. ‘Nodig je mij uit?’ vroeg de koningin desgevraagd bij de fotosessie aan haar man. ’Nou, je zit niet bij de laatste vier die er verplicht moeten zijn… Maar de koningin gaat mee, die heeft ook een rol in het staatsrechtelijk bestel, onder de ministeriële verantwoordelijkheid, dus ze is er zeker bij.’ Eigenlijk gaat de koning daar niet over, maar er is enkele weken geleden overleg geweest tussen Willem-Alexander en de voorzitter van de Eerste Kamer, Jan Anthonie Bruijn, die formeel de leiding heeft over de Verenigde Vergadering. Met hem is het aantal gasten vanuit het Koninklijk Huis vastgesteld, waarbij Constantijn en Laurentien ontbreken.

translation by me
Queen Máxima is the only partner of a person present who is allowed to come. "Are you inviting me?" The queen asked her husband when asked at the photo session. “Well, you are not among the last four that must be compulsory… But the queen is coming along, she also has a role in the constitutional system, under ministerial responsibility, so she is definitely there.” Actually, the king is not the one who decides this, but a few weeks ago there were consultations between Willem-Alexander and the chairman of the Senate, Jan Anthonie Bruijn, who is formally in charge of the United Assembly. The number of guests from the Royal House has been determined with him, with Constantijn and Laurentien missing.

in bold i highlighted the parts that make it more clear in my opinion and are missing from the earlier translation posted
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  #187  
Old 08-10-2020, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I don't understand the King's explanation. What constitutional role is assigned to the spouse of the monarch?
In an interview the King stated he sees his spouse as an essential part of a team. For him Queen Máxima is pivotal for the workings of the monarchy and it's future (she raises the future Queen and is the designated Regentess for an underaged Queen).

I think that will be the rationale behind the King's wish to have the Queen there at well. In return he leaves a fleet of ladies and gentlemen, his usual escort from the royal family, the civil household and the military household at home, as well hundreds of household staff and military for the ceremonial proceedings.
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  #188  
Old 08-10-2020, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I don't understand the King's explanation. What constitutional role is assigned to the spouse of the monarch?

She is by law the designated regent for Princess Amalia should a regency be required. Other than that, I cannot think of any other constitutional role assigned to Queen Maxima
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  #189  
Old 08-10-2020, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Lee-Z View Post
the text in dutch is:
Koningin Máxima is de enige partner van een aanwezige die wél mag komen. ‘Nodig je mij uit?’ vroeg de koningin desgevraagd bij de fotosessie aan haar man. ’Nou, je zit niet bij de laatste vier die er verplicht moeten zijn… Maar de koningin gaat mee, die heeft ook een rol in het staatsrechtelijk bestel, onder de ministeriële verantwoordelijkheid, dus ze is er zeker bij.’ Eigenlijk gaat de koning daar niet over, maar er is enkele weken geleden overleg geweest tussen Willem-Alexander en de voorzitter van de Eerste Kamer, Jan Anthonie Bruijn, die formeel de leiding heeft over de Verenigde Vergadering. Met hem is het aantal gasten vanuit het Koninklijk Huis vastgesteld, waarbij Constantijn en Laurentien ontbreken.

translation by me
Queen Máxima is the only partner of a person present who is allowed to come. "Are you inviting me?" The queen asked her husband when asked at the photo session. “Well, you are not among the last four that must be compulsory… But the queen is coming along, she also has a role in the constitutional system, under ministerial responsibility, so she is definitely there.” Actually, the king is not the one who decides this, but a few weeks ago there were consultations between Willem-Alexander and the chairman of the Senate, Jan Anthonie Bruijn, who is formally in charge of the United Assembly. The number of guests from the Royal House has been determined with him, with Constantijn and Laurentien missing.

in bold i highlighted the parts that make it more clear in my opinion and are missing from the earlier translation posted
Thank you! That makes it much clearer indeed.

It is an incomplete explanation given by the King as the other members of the Royal House also fall under ministerial responsibility. There is no question that the Queen is, as Duc_et_Pair said, more essential to the daily workings of the monarchy, and that is probably why she is invited, but in the eyes of the Constitution the consort is less essential than the members who are in line to the throne.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
She is by law the designated regent for Princess Amalia should a regency be required. Other than that, I cannot think of any other constitutional role assigned to Queen Maxima
But that was designated by an Act of Parliament, not in the Constitution.
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  #190  
Old 08-10-2020, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you! That makes it much clearer indeed.

It is an incomplete explanation given by the King as the other members of the Royal House also fall under ministerial responsibility. There is no question that the Queen is, as Duc_et_Pair said, more essential to the daily workings of the monarchy, and that is probably why she is invited, but in the eyes of the Constitution the consort is less essential than the members who are in line to the throne.



But that was designated by an Act of Parliament, not in the Constitution.



The constitution delegates to a joint session of Parliament the power to appoint a regent by law. The office of regent properly is a constitutional office.


Does the constitution say anything about other members of the RF being subject to ministerial responsibility? As far as I know, it only says that "The King is inviolable. The ministers are responsible". Should we interpret that Queen Maxima is now considered inviolable too? That would be hard to argue in any court of law.
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  #191  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:18 AM
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Apparently, this was said at the photo call last month - it was not some kind of official communication. In addition, the king used the term 'staatsrechtelijk' - which to me is different than 'grondwettelijk' (the 'grondwet' is the Dutch word for 'constitution'; staatsrechtelijk in my interpretation (but I'm not by any means specialized in law) is a wider term relating to the workings of the state.

In addition to being the designated regent for the princess of Orange, unlike prince Constantijn and others, queen Máxima is also a member of the Raad van State (Council of State); so, in that sense, she indeed does have a different 'staatsrechtelijke' position. Moreover, the members of the Council of State are present at Prinsjesdag, so while she attends as spouse of the head of state, if not, she could still attend as a member of the Council of State.
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  #192  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Apparently, this was said at the photo call last month - it was not some kind of official communication. In addition, the king used the term 'staatsrechtelijk' - which to me is different than 'grondwettelijk' (the 'grondwet' is the Dutch word for 'constitution'; staatsrechtelijk in my interpretation (but I'm not by any means specialized in law) is a wider term relating to the workings of the state.

In addition to being the designated regent for the princess of Orange, unlike prince Constantijn and others, queen Máxima is also a member of the Raad van State (Council of State); so, in that sense, she indeed does have a different 'staatsrechtelijke' position. Moreover, the members of the Council of State are present at Prinsjesdag, so while she attends as spouse of the head of state, if not, she could still attend as a member of the Council of State.

That is a more plausible explanation, thanks! So she is attending as a member of the Council of State.
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  #193  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:21 PM
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No, the Queen is no member of the Raad van State.

The King is President. He appoints the Vice-President (who is the factual boss of this High College of State) and 10 Staatsraden (State Counsels).

Queen Máxima is given a seat in the Raad van State. Like the Princess of Orange when she becomes 18. She can attend the Council but has no vote. Queen Máxima's position is just a honour. Same for the Princess of Orange. But from Princess Amalia it will be expected to attend the Council more regularly, like all Heirs before her, because it gives a view on the legislative ánd juridical process from within.

The Raad van State (established 1531) is both the highest and obligatory counsel in the legislative process as well the Supreme Court of Administration.
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  #194  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:55 PM
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Thank you to Mbruno, Somebody, and Duc_et_Pair for the additional details.

It is even odder that the King explained the Queen's presence by referring to the ministerial responsibility which she shares in common with the other members of the Royal House, considering that she holds other roles which do distinguish her from the other members of the Royal House.
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  #195  
Old 08-10-2020, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
No, the Queen is no member of the Raad van State.

The King is President. He appoints the Vice-President (who is the factual boss of this High College of State) and 10 Staatsraden (State Counsels).

Queen Máxima is given a seat in the Raad van State. Like the Princess of Orange when she becomes 18. She can attend the Council but has no vote. Queen Máxima's position is just a honour. Same for the Princess of Orange. But from Princess Amalia it will be expected to attend the Council more regularly, like all Heirs before her, because it gives a view on the legislative ánd juridical process from within.

The Raad van State (established 1531) is both the highest and obligatory counsel in the legislative process as well the Supreme Court of Administration.
Indeed there are various types of membership of the 'Council of State', the royal family members are non-voting members of the Council of State (I don't think the king would ever consider voting either even if he would be formally allowed to). And the princess of Orange will soon 'take her seat' in the Council of State; and the fact that she is expected to attend meeting just like her father did (and probably her mother as well but less extensively - and her future husband will be 'admitted' as well) means that it is more than just an honorary role.
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  #196  
Old 08-11-2020, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Indeed there are various types of membership of the 'Council of State', the royal family members are non-voting members of the Council of State (I don't think the king would ever consider voting either even if he would be formally allowed to). And the princess of Orange will soon 'take her seat' in the Council of State; and the fact that she is expected to attend meeting just like her father did (and probably her mother as well but less extensively - and her future husband will be 'admitted' as well) means that it is more than just an honorary role.
The admission into the Council means that they have access to all Government information, as the Council is an obligatory station in any legislative process. Besides this, they will hear eminent ladies and lords Staatsraden making arguments pro and contra a whole array of topics.

Mr Herman Diederik Tjeenk Willink, Vice-President of the Council under Queen Beatrix counts as a mentor and tutor of the then Prince of Orange. Not for nothing the royal couple requested him to be one of the godparents of their daughter Catharina-Amalia. The Council seems to be a very substantial beacon and guidance for the monarchy.

Picture: HM The King takes the Oath of Professor Dr Wilhelmina den Ouden LL.M, Dean of the Constitutional Law Faculty at Leyden University, as Staatsraad.

https://www.koninklijkhuis.nl/binari...-den-ouden.jpg
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