Popularity of the Dutch Monarchy and Royal Family

[Mbruno]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Yes over 80%.

But what is "confidence in WA", a person in a purely ceremonial function? And what is "confidence in Máxima", the wife of a person in a purely ceremonial function?

It is a bit an empty egg question. It would not surprise me in the least bit to see a republic coming. No revolutions, no guillotines, all in an orderly and prudent manner. But as in 1848 or in 1918: a tumbling throne always has a domino effect. A tumbling of the monarchy in the Netherlands will embolden the separatist and republican parties in Belgium (both already the two biggest parties over there).

In a parliamentary democracy, a republic can come only if the mainstream politicians want it, as it is they who can iniitiate legislation and/or call a referendum to that end. And, then, of course, the public has to support it. Right now, I don't see any interest in the Dutch political class to topple the monarchy (unlike perhaps among some political factions in Belgium and Spain). I think inertia and the sheer difficulty of amending constitutions end up protecting the monarchy in many European countries even if the popularity of many Royal Families is falling.

Curiously BTW, that is not always the case. In Sweden, for example, which is considered a more republican country than the Netherlands, confidence in the Royal Family has been going up rather than down in recent polls.

[Blog Real]

The problem of the popularity of the Dutch monarchy is related to the behavior of King WA and Queen Maxima during the pandemic, and also the lack of visibility of their daughters, namely the heiress.
I think it's time for Princess Catharina Amalia to appear more often at official events, and to show interest in some subjects and subjects, she should follow the example of Leonor and Elisabeth.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

The problem of the popularity of the Dutch monarchy is related to the behavior of King WA and Queen Maxima during the pandemic, and also the lack of visibility of their daughters, namely the heiress.
I think it's time for Princess Catharina Amalia to appear more often at official events, and to show interest in some subjects and subjects, she should follow the example of Leonor and Elisabeth.

That is indeed the crux of the problem. More specifically that their behaviour gives the impression "We work hard and are good in what we do and in turn we can do whatever we want in private and we don't care about what the public thinks." Quid pro quo.

It's an elitist attitude at best and he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. Sometimes W-A shows too much of Van Lippe-Biesterfeld in his actions.

What astonishes me personally is that neither Máxima nor Catharina-Amalia seem to think "perhaps this isn't the best idea" and convince their husband/father to change plans. Sometimes they seem like a Punch and Judy show.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Blog Real

The problem of the popularity of the Dutch monarchy is related to the behavior of King WA and Queen Maxima during the pandemic, and also the lack of visibility of their daughters, namely the heiress.
I think it's time for Princess Catharina Amalia to appear more often at official events, and to show interest in some subjects and subjects, she should follow the example of Leonor and Elisabeth.

Under Beatrix Regina Perfectissimae the downward trend of support for a hereditary monarchy was the same. Under warm and approachable Juliana the same. Persons can be very likeable or be popular, like Máxima, but that is not the same as supporting the existence of a monarchy. Probably lots of Dutchies like the idea to have a democratically elected head of state indeed. And Ms C.A.B.C.M. von Amsberg can participate in the elections if she likes.

[BriarRose]

In fairness to Catharina-Amalia, Leonor & Elisabeth (who I agree are model heirs to their respective thrones) have grown up knowing that their monarchies are not guaranteed, and have had years of seeing their respective families be criticized in the press.

Until Covid, the Dutch monarchy was considered one of the most secure monarchies in Europe. Catherina-Amalia wasn't raised in a pressure-cooker relationship with the press like other heirs were.

We know that CA is academically quite smart. I think in time she will be a strong heir.
Ultimately, it is up to the King to invite her to more public functions. I do agree she needs more visibility. I don't think it's entirely her decision on what events she does attend.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by BriarRose

In fairness to Catharina-Amalia, Leonor & Elisabeth (who I agree are model heirs to their respective thrones) have grown up knowing that their monarchies are not guaranteed, and have had years of seeing their respective families be criticized in the press.

Until Covid, the Dutch monarchy was considered one of the most secure monarchies in Europe. Catherina-Amalia wasn't raised in a pressure-cooker relationship with the press like other heirs were.

We know that CA is academically quite smart. I think in time she will be a strong heir.
Ultimately, it is up to the King to invite her to more public functions. I do agree she needs more visibility. I don't think it's entirely her decision on what events she does attend.

Visibility does not change an opinion of preferring a hereditary monarchy anno 2023. The King's cousin Eloïse is so visible that she is nicknamed gravinfluencer. It has not so much to do with popularity, visibility, likeness. It is the core question: do you support a hereditary monarchy, with a Royal House? That support is declining, from WWII to now, from way over 80% to just above 50%. I have no any illusion that people will suddenly turn monarchist or royalist.

[BriarRose]

Maybe I’m just not a person who panics easily, but I don’t think a few years of bad poll numbers and declining popularity spells the definitive end of the Dutch throne. To be frank, the King and Queen need better advisors who will be honest with them. And they need to heed that advice.

I do think visibility matters greatly for young heirs. People have a harder time actively taking down a monarchy when they genuinely like the person in charge. When I look at Sweden, I think Victoria is a great example of this.

It’s easy to answer an anonymous poll saying you don’t want something. It’s a lot of work calling for a referendum/amending a constitution. I think the Dutch royals could improve their numbers if they are willing to change tactics.

[An Ard Ri]

How did the king's mother poll?

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

How did the king's mother poll?

Queen Beatrix never "won" any poll. Always her mother, her husband, her daughter-in-law "out-polled" her.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by BriarRose

Maybe I’m just not a person who panics easily, but I don’t think a few years of bad poll numbers and declining popularity spells the definitive end of the Dutch throne. To be frank, the King and Queen need better advisors who will be honest with them. And they need to heed that advice.

I do think visibility matters greatly for young heirs. People have a harder time actively taking down a monarchy when they genuinely like the person in charge. When I look at Sweden, I think Victoria is a great example of this.

It’s easy to answer an anonymous poll saying you don’t want something. It’s a lot of work calling for a referendum/amending a constitution. I think the Dutch royals could improve their numbers if they are willing to change tactics.

It is just a system crisis, or a crisis of authority. The Cabinet, the Parliament, the public services, the judiciary, the media, the public broadcasters, the municipalities, all have an alltime low rating. The latest Elections,a few weeks ago saw the lowest turnouts ever. In Rotterdam even no more than 38% could be bothererd who is in charge of their city.

It is not that the monarchy is in danger now but people simply feel that the densely populated country in a drifting world, with COVlD, Climate Change, a war in the heart of Europe and this coupled with a feeling of inertia leads to a crisis in trust.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

Queen Beatrix never "won" any poll. Always her mother, her husband, her daughter-in-law "out-polled" her.

I meant in 2022 not in the past.

[tommy100]

Originally Posted by Skippy

That is indeed the crux of the problem. More specifically that their behaviour gives the impression "We work hard and are good in what we do and in turn we can do whatever we want in private and we don't care about what the public thinks." Quid pro quo.

It's an elitist attitude at best and he doesn't seem to learn from his mistakes. Sometimes W-A shows too much of Van Lippe-Biesterfeld in his actions.

What astonishes me personally is that neither Máxima nor Catharina-Amalia seem to think "perhaps this isn't the best idea" and convince their husband/father to change plans. Sometimes they seem like a Punch and Judy show.

I agree about Maxima and Catharina-Amalia but would add what worries me more is that never mind his family advising him it was a bad idea - did none of his advisors/staff, the PM or government tell him it was a bad idea? Either:

• they did and he didn't listen - which is not good on WA's part and suggests the monarchy may be in real trouble
• his advisors were too scared to tell him he was wrong - again see above
• or they didn't see an issue in the first place - in which case they aren't very good advisors and again the monarchy is in trouble

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by tommy100

I agree about Maxima and Catharina-Amalia but would add what worries me more is that never mind his family advising him it was a bad idea - did none of his advisors/staff, the PM or government tell him it was a bad idea? Either:

• they did and he didn't listen - which is not good on WA's part and suggests the monarchy may be in real trouble
• his advisors were too scared to tell him he was wrong - again see above
• or they didn't see an issue in the first place - in which case they aren't very good advisors and again the monarchy is in trouble

Even if he was the Perfect King, the support for a monarchy would have pointed downwards. We only need to look to 33 years of Reign of Beatrix, seen as a "perfect" constitutional monarch. It is just that a more and more modern, cosmopolitan, well-educated, world-connected and globetrotting electorate sees less and less in a system in which a womb decides who is the next head of state.

[Prinsara]

Reiterating "downward trends" ad infinitum is not a license or an excuse for the King and apparently Queen to do whatever they want. Apparently-not caring sufficiently about public regulations or opinion is not going to make them more popular or shore up anything ebbing away.

"Giving a damn and not acting ridiculously entitled" is pretty much the low bar for modern monarchy these days.

[victor1319]

Originally Posted by Skippy

That is indeed the crux of the problem. More specifically that their behaviour gives the impression "We work hard and are good in what we do and in turn we can do whatever we want in private and we don't care about what the public thinks."

Yeah, one gets the impression, they think, they are doing a mere job - like they are freshly appointed state employees.

But Monarchy is a tiny bit different: more mythical and historically enriched and so they are not state servants but Royals!

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by victor1319

Yeah, one gets the impression, they think, they are doing a mere job - like they are freshly appointed state employees.

But Monarchy is a tiny bit different: more mythical and historically enriched and so they are not state servants but Royals!

To be fair: they are state servants and not rulers by some droit divin. There is factually hardly any difference between the oactivities of the King and those of the German Bundespräsident. From the signing and promulgating of laws, to receiving credentials of foreign ambassadors, to appointing state functionaries, their activities are almost the same.


Difference is that Willem-Alexander was "born" in this state function and Mr Steinmeier has been democratically elected.

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Reiterating "downward trends" ad infinitum is not a license or an excuse for the King and apparently Queen to do whatever they want. Apparently-not caring sufficiently about public regulations or opinion is not going to make them more popular or shore up anything ebbing away.

"Giving a damn and not acting ridiculously entitled" is pretty much the low bar for modern monarchy these days.

They are not "do whatever they want". That is a ridiculous assumption and even if he was The Perfect King he would be slashed by media for having the most boring scandal-free monarchy.

We see that Luxembourg, the United Kingdom, Norway, Spain, whatever are hit with media frenzies about a apparently hard to handle Grand-Duchess, about a publicly hard fought divorce of one of the Luxembourg princes, about an alleged undemocratical interference by British royals, about a criminal offence by one of the Queen's sons, about a publicitary break-away from the monarchy by the Sussexes, about a princess engaging with a so-called Shaman, about a King's daughter and sister linked to a criminal (soon to be ex?) husband, about an alleged "illegitimate" Belgian becoming a Princess of Saxe-Cobourg, etc. etc.

Even when the King and Queen had the highest popularity approvals ever (2013) the underlying trend of support for a system of a hereditary monarchy was -unchanging- downwards. It seems difficult on these boards to make a separation between personal popularity and a preference for a hereditary monarchy.

We may assume that King Philippe is a popular and well-liked person. The same can be said about Grand-Duke Henri. This does not translate into more warm feelings for having a system of a hereditary monarchy in the two other Benelux countries. Also there the trend is similar. Despite a "saintly King" (Baudouin) and an imperturbable Grand-Duke (Jean) having had a perfect "trajectory" for decades.

[Marengo]

I am not sure if things are all that dire. Young people tend to get old. Older people often tend to get more conservative and nostalgic. A simular gloomy prediction could have been made at various stages, most notably the 1970s. And yet the monarchy is still here.

In addition, if the choice is either a king or president [insert name of any politician, one more unpopular than the next] people will prefer a monarch.

The respondents indicated that the trust -whatever that is- has decreased due to the behavior of the King and Queen. Instead of leading by example they seemed to be focussing on stretching the rules as far as possible as to make sure tHeir priviledged lifestyle would not be endangered. Most others will have done the same but from a monarch more is expected. In no other monarchy we have seen simular problems. It is all the more problematic as it underlines an image of jetsetters that, rightly or wrongly, has stuck to the couple since the Mozambique debacle. It will be very difficult for the king and queen to get rid of that image.

As for the princesses: apart from one or two royalty journalists I have never heard any Dutch person saying they need to be more visible, have their own agenda at this age or that they are spoiled brats - a narrative that on Anglo-Saxon and esp. Spanish-speaking online forums is popular.

People are happy that they were/are able to have a relatively normal childhood, that they seem to be 'typical teenagers' and that they are not robots who are forced in front of the cameras too often to increase the popularity ratings of the monarchy. On Amalia's 18th birthday it was not so much the stiff and rehearsed speech that people liked, but the more informal chats.

Note that the Dutch way of raising children is very different from Southern Europe. Children are supposed to be more free to do what they want and develop their interests, they are supposed to get relatively independent quickly and parents encourage them to form opinions, they are supposed to explore and while doing so make mistakes and learn from them. Forcing them into a corset where no foot is ever placed on the wrong spot is very much against the way children are raised here since the 1960s.

[Skippy]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

I meant in 2022 not in the past.

Princess Beatrix was not polled, it was purely W-A and Máxima.

Originally Posted by Marengo

I am not sure if things are all that dire. Young people tend to get old. Older people tend to get more conservative and sentimental. A simular gloomy prediction could have been made at various stages, most notably the 1970s. And yet the monarchy is still there.

In addition, if the choice is either a king or a president [insert name of any politician, one more unpopular than the next] I am sure that for now people will prefer the King.

The respondents indicated that the trust -whatever that is- has decreased due to the behavior of the King and Queen. Instead of leading by example they seemed to be focussing on stretching the rules as far as possible as to make sure teir priviledged lifestyle would not be endangered. Most others will have done the same in the country but from a monarch more is expected. In no other monarchy we have seen simular problems. It is all the more problematic as it underlines an image of jetsetters that, rightly or wrongly, has stuck to the couple since the Mozambique debacle.


As for the princesses: Apart from one or two royalty journalists I have never heard any Dutch person saying they need to be more visible, have their own agenda at this age or that they are spoiled brats - a narrative that on Anglo-Saxon and esp. Spanish-speaking online forums is popular.

People are happy that they were able to have a relatively normal childhood, that they seem to be 'typical teenagers' and that they are not robots who are forced in front of te cameras too often to increase te popularity ratings of the monarchy. Note that the Dutch way of raising children is very different from Southern Europe. Children are supposed to be more free to do what they want and develop their interests, they are supposed to be opinionated and parents encourage tem to form opinions, they are supposed to make mistakes and learn from them. Forcing them into a corset is very much against the way children are raised here since the 1960s.

That is precisely what it comes down to. Hence my remark of an elitist attitude.

[Marengo]

Originally Posted by Skippy

That is precisely what it comes down to. Hence my remark of an elitist attitude.

I think you were spot on. The alarm bells sould have gone off in 2009 when the chairmen of the Orange associations attacked the then prince of Orange and Princess Máxima for their supposed jetsetting. But sadly they keep making the same mistakes. Either their advisors are incompetent or -more likely- they prefer not to listen to advice.

The couple seems to be enjoying the perks a bit too much. And although less and less people are religious the country is culturally calvinistic and -IMO mistakenly- likes to think of itself as an egalitarian one. I am sure other royals will enjoy the perks just as much or even more but at least they do so more secretly. In Juliana's time all the Italian trips were not reported in the press by dilligent air plane spotters. Now they are.

Juliana also mingled with the Porto Ercole jetset, was entertained by a Princess Colonna etc., Beatrix was also holidaying on the yacht of Freddy Heineken but we did not see them doing that. We did not see them at society weddings such as WA & Máxima in London for a Greek tycoon. Felipe supposedly also went to Pavlos 50th birthday but unlike Máxima he was not posing for the camera with Valentino. Other royals may have celebrated a jubilee of their first meeting, but none have done it while being photograped and filmed at a society party in Sevilla, with images all splattered out in the European press. All these things together reinforce the elitist image of the couple in a time where people are more sensitive than ever for such things.