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  #61  
Old 10-13-2021, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
This whole issue is just a spin by the governing VVD, who sees it as an easy point to score. Without any controversy, without any additional public spending, without any opposition. And all that over the back of a teenager - who I am sure could perfectly well do without half the country speculating about her sexuality. I don't find it very edifying for them to expose a 17 y/o to such a debate.
I have to agree with you, as a teenager, this is not what the Corwn Princess would necessarily want. That said, this is the kind of meaningless intrusion into her personal life that, I am afraid, she will have to get used to, as it will be a part and parcel of her life as a leading royal.
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  #62  
Old 10-13-2021, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Camsterlaird View Post
Quite right too. If the monarch was LGBT if is far safer for them to open about it, rather than be forced to marry someone of the opposite sex and create two unhappy people, with the possibility of blackmail and intrigue.

In Britain Lord Ivar Mountbatten has married his male partner, and not had to give up his place in the line of succession (albeit is is a long way down the list), and I am pretty sure the British Royal Family is more conservative than the Dutch Royal Family!

The framing is a bit off-key. Any hindrance for a same-gender marriage had nothing to do with the partner choice an sich but everything with the unknown territory it goes into.

As said, this could potentially lead to an equivalent of Tom Parker Bowles or a Marius Hoiby becoming a successor:
A = the thronefollower
B = the same-gender partner of the thronefollower
C = the natural parent (a male donor or a female natural mother)

In theory the fruit of B + C can result into a hereditary succesor born in a consented royal marriage whom is not at all related to the thronefollower.

It is no wonder that back then (2001 and 2002) Prime Minister Kok wove away questions about this as "not relevant to the debate at present" and "when such a situation arises it is up to the acting Government".

Undoubtedly a Commission will then be installed, with experts, to give a report and advice to the King (who has to agree to as he sends the Bill of Consent in his name or on his initiative) , the Cabinet, the two Chambers of Parliament, the Council of State (involved in any legislation) and the High Council of Nobility.

Also the position of the natural father or the natural mother who is no part of the royal union has to be outlined. What to do in case of a guardianship or a regency over a minor King or Queen? Has the natural parent any authority over his/her child or is it a condition to be vested in Law that he/she looses paternal authority?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

For so far there is no any indication of such a possibility, as the rumours are that the three princesses already see and were vacationing with friends (with their parents in Greece). During the unlucky depart of the King and his family during Covid, it seems there were good friends (male) travelling with Amalia and Alexia.
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  #63  
Old 10-13-2021, 01:15 PM
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But it would always be A+C, never B.
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  #64  
Old 10-13-2021, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SLV View Post
But it would always be A+C, never B.
But that would be a condition laid upon the two partners, while in all same-gender unions both parents are fully equal. Anyway, is a very theoretic discussion. Alike back then: Prince Friso would be gay indeed, while he was not (and he even felt enforced to issue an official denial via the State Information Agency).
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  #65  
Old 10-13-2021, 03:50 PM
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Heirs need to be lawful descendants of the monarch (or another person in the line of succession), so my take is that if someone is not a descendant of said person (which would be the case if the monarch/born royal is not the biological parent) he/she cannot succeed to the throne - which is why adopted children are excluded, as they are children(!) but not descendants of their parents (I think)).

So, the question is whether someone born in a lawful marriage but not by both spouses in the marriage would be considered a lawful descendant; that applies both to the discussion on same-sex parents as well as if the royal couple experiences infertility and would like to use a donor to be able to have biological child by at least one of the partners (or specifically the partner in line of succession).
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  #66  
Old 10-13-2021, 04:55 PM
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Heirs need to be lawful descendants of the monarch (or another person in the line of succession), so my take is that if someone is not a descendant of said person (which would be the case if the monarch/born royal is not the biological parent) he/she cannot succeed to the throne - which is why adopted children are excluded, as they are children(!) but not descendants of their parents (I think)).

So, the question is whether someone born in a lawful marriage but not by both spouses in the marriage would be considered a lawful descendant; that applies both to the discussion on same-sex parents as well as if the royal couple experiences infertility and would like to use a donor to be able to have biological child by at least one of the partners (or specifically the partner in line of succession).

I know you think that the position of other countries on this matter is irrelevant, but it is useful to see how those matters have been handled elsewhere.


In the UK, with respect to succession to peerages, the courts have adjudicated that if a legally married couple has a child conceived by IVF with a donated egg or sperm using a licensed clinic, or if a child is born of a surrogate mother who then legally transfers parental rights to the couple, then the child is their legal son or daughter, but cannot inherit the title or any estate that is linked to the title if applicable. That is true regardless of whether either one or both of the legal parents are the biological parents of the child.


I assume the Netherlands would perhaps take a more progressive view though.
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  #67  
Old 10-13-2021, 05:16 PM
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The only Problem...

"Bunte online", the German tabloid, has jumped into the thematic as well:

They say, a marriage between two partners of the same sex is valid in the Netherlands since 2001 and nothing forbids this for the Royal House.

Prime minister Rutte of the Netherlands, is cited with an interview in the newspaper "De Telegraaf", that a Royal would not have to abdict in case of such an marriage.

The only problem is the heir/ess: Since in the Netherlands children from a sperm/egg donor and adopted children are not allowed to follow onto the Throne, but only "legal descendents", a marriage between partners of the same sex might be not approved by the Parliament - so one Peter Rehwinkel in his book "Amalia - De Plicht roept (The duty is calling)".https://www.bunte.de/royals/niederla...hronfolge.html
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  #68  
Old 10-13-2021, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post

I assume the Netherlands would perhaps take a more progressive view though.
I am not sure if they would -for the nobility at least. The Spanish change for noble families where the eldest child -regardless of the sex- succeeds was not copied in The Netherlands for example. AFAIK the policy of the state is to slowly let the nobility fade out/ become extinct, so making titles easier to inherit does not make sense in that respect.
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  #69  
Old 10-13-2021, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I am not sure if they would -for the nobility at least. The Spanish change for noble families where the eldest child -regardless of the sex- succeeds was not copied in The Netherlands for example. AFAIK the policy of the state is to slowly let the nobility fade out/ become extinct, so making titles easier to inherit does not make sense in that respect.
Indeed, the Nobility is seen as a historical institute with historical rules. Effectively a glass dome has been put over the Nobility with three exceptions:

1.
New creations: only members of the Royal House.

2.
New incorporations: only nationalized foreigners holding a title from a country with a similar system of Nobility.

3.
New recognitions: only persons who can claim to descend in paternal (male) lineage from Nobility in the Low Countries before 1795.

Opening female succession would mean extending and expanding Nobility in perpetuity and that is not exactly what Government wants since WWII.
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  #70  
Old 10-13-2021, 06:08 PM
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Nonetheless the Government expanded the inheritance of titles of nobility when they opened inheritance to out-of-wedlock and adoptive children.
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  #71  
Old 10-13-2021, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Nonetheless the Government expanded the inheritance of titles of nobility when they opened inheritance to out-of-wedlock and adoptive children.
The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.

The expansion to adopted children was very much against the wishes and the intention of the Government. It is the result of a jurisprudence in a juridical case in which an adopted child started a lawsuit against the State: he not only wished to be known with his adoptive father's surname but also with his adoptive father's predicate and/or title.

The viewpoint of the Government is in the Explanatory Memorandum attched to the Nobility Act 1994: 'The aim has been to maintain the policy with regard to Nobility and the prevailing Nobility Act. The existing Royal Decrees, in which the right of nobility have been implied, will be maintained. No re-codification of Nobility as such has been made.

In the opinion of the Government, the Nobility must be seen as a historically grown institution, recognized and protected by law, which can only be maintained as a historical institution indeed, but which loses its foundation if one tries to modify or organize it according to contemporary ideas.'
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  #72  
Old 10-13-2021, 06:32 PM
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Reply moved to the Dutch Nobility thread.
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  #73  
Old 10-14-2021, 04:59 PM
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The consequences of opening marriage for same-gender couples was discussed in Parliament in 2000. What made that the Government was hesistant about allowing a same-gender marriage for a King or a thronefollower? See below. It is clear that opinions have changed since 2000.

The Explanatory Memorandum attached to the proposed change of Book 1 of the Civic Code (open civil marriage to same-gender couples) reads:


[....]

"Members of the CDA asked to argue how the provisions of the Constitution with regard to a royal marriage relate to what will be determined in the Civil Code with regard to civil marriage. They also asked whether there are other examples in which concepts in the Constitution have a completely different interpretation than in other legislation.

I am not aware of examples of concepts in the field of civil law that have a different meaning in the Constitution. In the Constitution, the term (royal) marriage is used in the sense of a marriage between persons of different gender, because the kingship is hereditary.

According to Article 24 of the Constitution, the kingship is fulfilled, hereditary, by the legitimate successors of His Majesty King Willem I, Prince of Orange-Nassau. These are the successors born in a legal and consented (royal) marriage.

In the opinion of the Government this link in the Constitution between royal marriage and a birth within said royal marriage for the hereditary succession to the throne, must be read as: marriage between persons of different gender.

Members of GroenLinks have asked a number of questions regarding the significance of opening up civil marriage for same-gender couples, for the succession to the throne and for members of the Royal House.

As my answers above to questions from members of the CDA have already indicated, the concept of marriage as used in the Constitution, has to be read in the sense of a marriage between persons of different gender, because the kingship is hereditary.

If a reigning King or a thronefollower would enter into a marriage with a person of the same gender, the very essence of the hereditary kingship is at stake, since it is established in advance that no children will be born from such a marriage.

The kingship or the perpetuation of it is wilfully excluded by entering into such a marriage. From discrimination against members of the Royal House to citizens in The Netherlands cannot be spoken here, as it is not about equal cases, after all: ctizens are no successors to the hereditary kingship."

[....]


This makes clear the rationale of the Government, in 2000, was not the same-gender union as sich, but the "perpetuation" of the hereditary kingship. Now we are 21 years furtherer. For the current Government a King or a thronefollower can engage in a same-gender union without being excluded from the hereditary succession. About the "fruit" of such a marriage: we will only know how the Government will handle when Princess Catharina-Amalia will really engage with a female partner and welcome issue born in that legal union.

https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/dossier/26672
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  #74  
Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM
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All that fuzz over nothing...Wait and see what happens and what Amalia comes home with...Poor girl to have to
stand through all these assumptions,live and let live.
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  #75  
Old Yesterday, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The consequences of opening marriage for same-gender couples was discussed in Parliament in 2000. What made that the Government was hesistant about allowing a same-gender marriage for a King or a thronefollower? See below. It is clear that opinions have changed since 2000.

The Explanatory Memorandum attached to the proposed change of Book 1 of the Civic Code (open civil marriage to same-gender couples) reads:


[....]

"Members of the CDA asked to argue how the provisions of the Constitution with regard to a royal marriage relate to what will be determined in the Civil Code with regard to civil marriage. They also asked whether there are other examples in which concepts in the Constitution have a completely different interpretation than in other legislation.

I am not aware of examples of concepts in the field of civil law that have a different meaning in the Constitution. In the Constitution, the term (royal) marriage is used in the sense of a marriage between persons of different gender, because the kingship is hereditary.

According to Article 24 of the Constitution, the kingship is fulfilled, hereditary, by the legitimate successors of His Majesty King Willem I, Prince of Orange-Nassau. These are the successors born in a legal and consented (royal) marriage.

In the opinion of the Government this link in the Constitution between royal marriage and a birth within said royal marriage for the hereditary succession to the throne, must be read as: marriage between persons of different gender.

Members of GroenLinks have asked a number of questions regarding the significance of opening up civil marriage for same-gender couples, for the succession to the throne and for members of the Royal House.

As my answers above to questions from members of the CDA have already indicated, the concept of marriage as used in the Constitution, has to be read in the sense of a marriage between persons of different gender, because the kingship is hereditary.

If a reigning King or a thronefollower would enter into a marriage with a person of the same gender, the very essence of the hereditary kingship is at stake, since it is established in advance that no children will be born from such a marriage.

The kingship or the perpetuation of it is wilfully excluded by entering into such a marriage. From discrimination against members of the Royal House to citizens in The Netherlands cannot be spoken here, as it is not about equal cases, after all: ctizens are no successors to the hereditary kingship."

[....]


This makes clear the rationale of the Government, in 2000, was not the same-gender union as sich, but the "perpetuation" of the hereditary kingship. Now we are 21 years furtherer. For the current Government a King or a thronefollower can engage in a same-gender union without being excluded from the hereditary succession. About the "fruit" of such a marriage: we will only know how the Government will handle when Princess Catharina-Amalia will really engage with a female partner and welcome issue born in that legal union.

https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/dossier/26672

That is a weird argument First of all, a marriage does not necessarily produce issue. Some married couples cannot have children and others simply choose not to have children. Compelling a married couple to have children against their will is a violation of individual human rights and the notion that marriage exists solely for procreation is outdated.


Second, and most importantly in this discussion, the constitution itself provides for the succession in case the King does not have any living descendants, which would include also the possibility of a marriage without issue:


Quote:
[...] If the King has no descendants, the title to the Throne is passed in the same way to the legitimate descendants of the King's parent and then of his grandparent who are in the line of succession but are not further removed from the deceased King than the third degree of consanguinity.
That goes back to my original point. Amalia not having children who can succeed her would not be a constitutional issue in my very humble opinion as long as the line of succession had not become extinct. In fact, even if the line of succession were extinct, the constitution also provides for that contingency:


Quote:
Article 30 [Appointment of a Successor]
(1) A successor to the Throne may be appointed by Act of Parliament if it appears that there will otherwise be no successor. The Bill is presented by or on behalf of the King, upon which the Chambers are dissolved. The newly convened Chambers discuss and decide upon the matter in joint session. Such a Bill is passed only if at least two-thirds of the votes cast are in favour.
(2) The Chambers are dissolved if there is no successor on the death or abdication of the King. The newly convened Chambers meet in joint session within four months of the decease or abdication in order to decide on the appointment of a King. They may appoint a successor only if at least two-thirds of the votes cast are in favour.
In summary, I personally agree that children born with donated genetic material that does not come from someone to whom the heir is legally married, or does not come from the heir him/herself, would not meet the standards for "legitimate hereditary succession" as outlined in the constitution. However, I don't see any requirement in the constitution that the King must necessarily marry, or must have descendants, or produce legal successors. Am I missing something?
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  #76  
Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM
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It is about the word "wilfully" I assume:

"The kingship or the perpetuation of it is wilfully excluded by entering into such a marriage."

Note it is about a marriage which needs parliamentary Consent. So the successor wilfully enters a marriage with the knowledge that it will never have fruit (in the thinking lines of 2000). Now 21 years later, we know that same gender marriages can welcome fruit indeed.

These words must be read in the framework of the debate about the opening of civil marriage. The Netherlands were the first country to do so. The Cabinet had to fulfill a complicated parliamentary parcours. My guess is that the Cabinet wanted to focus on getting this Bill through Parliament and wanted to avoid a side-debate about theoretical same-gender royal marriages, therefore these hard answers.
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