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  #61  
Old 01-11-2021, 08:35 AM
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The late Barones Marie Hélène de Rothschlld was born van Zuylen. Are they Dutch Nobels?
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  #62  
Old 01-11-2021, 09:16 AM
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Yes, she descends from the branch van Zuylen van Nyevelt van de Haar of the van Zuylen van Nievelt family from Utrecht, which can trace its origins back to the 13th century. The branch of which Helene descends relocated to Belgium (or Southern Netherlands at the time) in the 17th century and changed 'van Nievelt' to 'van Nyevelt' and converted to catholicism.

The Dutch branches of the family have become extinct in 1947. The last two baronesses (1st cousins of each other) married two brothers, baron Alexander and baron Anne Willem van Nagell.

Marie-Helene de Rotschilds grandfather baron Etienne married Helene de Rotschild (also from the French branch of that family) and the couple restaured De Haar castle in Haarzuylens, near Utrecht with her money. The castle was used only in the late summer/early autumn to entertain guests. Exterior and interior were designed by Pierre Kuypers, the architect who was also responsible for the Central Station and the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam.

I have visited the castle once, it is a rather odd structure. Inside even more so than outside, it struck me as a great folly TBH. A great kitch fantasy of what such a castle could have looked like in medieval times but with all the comforts of the fin de siècle. Near the entry there is a bathtub that would have been filled with bottles of champagne for the guests they were entertaining. When I visited they had a small exhibition about guests that were received by the family: Brigitte Bardot was a guest and she used a moped in the corridors. Other celebrities such as Gregory Peck, Yves Saint Laurent, Roger Moore and Joan Collins also stayed in the castle. Queen Emma visited the castle while it was being built but I do not remember if the Dutch royals ever stayed there as guests.

https://www.kasteeldehaar.nl/

The family only survives in Belgium. The five daughters of Marie-Helene de Rotschilds' brother Thierry IIRC all live in France. Baron Thierry sold the castle to a foundation in the year 2000 because he were unable to pay for the upkeep of the castle. He died in 2011 and is burried in the family crypt in the little church next to the castle. In 2012 his daughters sold the furniture of the castle to the same foundation. The gaudy pieces would not sell well on the antique market. The family can still use a part of the castle but I do not believe they do so on a regular basis.

An extensive genealogy can be found on the Dutch wikipedia website:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Zuylen_van_Nievelt

Oddly enough there is a second family with the same name incorporated in the Dutch nobility. This family Van Zuylen van Nijevelt is however from Rotterdam and from a much more recent origin (became noble during the Napoleonic area). The family adopted the name as they claimed to be related to the van Zuylen family from Utrecht but they have failed to show any evidence for this. The chef of the family uses the title of count while other members are barons.

The present count is married to the grand mistress of the court, Countess Bibi (Marie-Louise) van Zuylen van Nijevelt, née Jkvr. den Beer Poortugael. Their estate in Wassenaar is now an amusement park called Duinrell.

https://www.duinrell.com/
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  #63  
Old 01-11-2021, 09:26 AM
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Wouldn't the Duke of Guelders have been the highest ranking Dutch noble and outranked the Counts of Holland and Zeeland?
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  #64  
Old 01-11-2021, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
[...]The registration form contained the field 'title', [...] or probably academic title but the field contained the following options:

Baron
Barones
Graaf
Gravin
Hertog
Hertogin
Markies
Markiezin
Prins
Prinses
Ridder

And the next field was 'predicate', with the options jonkheer/jonkvrouw...[...]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Royal Decree of May 15th 1996 described them without any title or prefix, so they had no any title in the Dutch municipal registers.

"

[....]

Have approved and understand:

1.
Carlos Javier Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme and Jaime Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, and all their descendants in the male lineage, both male as well female;
Margarita Maria Beatriz de Bourbon de Parme and Maria Carolina Christina de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, for their persons exclusively;
to incorporate them into the Nobility of the Netherlands with the title of prince and princess and the prefix Royal Highness.

[...]



I would like to point out for those who are more used to the British system of nobility that, as we can observe, the Dutch system is more comparable to the Belgian system of nobility:

Legally, the family name or territorial designation is not contained in the title. For example, Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme would fill in his title on the registration form as Prince (and not Prince de Bourbon de Parme), as de Bourbon de Parme is registered as his surname rather than as part of his title.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
The king is Duke of Limburg I believe.
It is not included in his official titulature.
N.B. Volledige officiële titels van de Koning: Koning der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg, Graaf van Katzenelnbogen, Graaf van Vianden, Graaf van Diez, Graaf van Spiegelberg, Graaf van Buren, Graaf van Leerdam, Graaf van Culemborg, Markies van Veere en Vlissingen, Baron van Breda, Baron van Diest, Baron van Beilstein, Baron van de stad Grave en het Land van Cuyk, Baron van IJsselstein, Baron van Cranendonk, Baron van Eindhoven, Baron van Liesveld, Erf- en Vrijheer van Ameland, Heer van Borculo, Heer van Bredevoort, Heer van Lichtenvoorde, Heer van 't Loo, Heer van Geertruidenberg, Heer van Klundert, Heer van Zevenbergen, Heer van Hoge en Lage Zwaluwe, Heer van Naaldwijk, Heer van Polanen, Heer van Sint-Maartensdijk, Heer van Soest, Baarn en Ter Eem, Heer van Willemstad, Heer van Steenbergen, Heer van Montfort, Heer van Sankt Vith, Heer van Bütgenbach, Heer van Dasburg, Burggraaf van Antwerpen.

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Only the title of Ridder (knight) has no feminine form. The daughter of a knight is a jonkvrouw.
Then I imagine the wife of a knight is a Mevrouw?

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Queen has approved the following Arms to be used by the family de Bourbon de Parme: https://www.adelinnederland.nl/wp-co...e-wapen-De.jpg
It is interesting that, if I am not mistaken, it is crowned with a royal instead of a princely crown, and that it does not consist of the grand arms of the duchy of Parma but only the differenced arms of France.
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  #65  
Old 01-11-2021, 10:10 AM
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AFAIK the RF has stopped using the title Duke of Limburg. From what I can find some say they stopped using it since the end of the German confederation in 1866 - of which the duchy was oficially a member up to that point. Elsewhere I have read that Queen Wilhelmina was the last person to use the title but I have seen no evidence for that claim.

In 2014 the governor of the province of Limburg asked the Dutch counsil of nobility if there is a legal way for the King to use the title 'Duke of Limburg'. The counsil adviced the title has no official validity at the moment as there was never a royal decree issued where the title was named. The constitution of 1815 has chosen to list the titles of the monarch as enz. enz. enz. (etcetera, etcetera, etcetera) as not to name all the titles of the monarch. The counsil argued that the governor is free to refer to the title at cultural events to mark the rich history of the province.

Note that the present province of Limburg has almost no overlap with the medieval Duchy of the same name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria
Then I imagine the wife of a knight is a Mevrouw?
Indeed.
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  #66  
Old 01-11-2021, 10:59 AM
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Willem-Alexander's only titles are Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer van Amsberg.

The Etc. Etc. Etc. might hold all the titles held by Willem VI of Orange-Nassau, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz (son of the last Stadtholder of the United Provinces) who would become King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg.

But as nobility is hereditary in the male lineage, all noble titles de facto became ended with the death of Willem III of Orange-Nassau, King of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg in 1890. His daughter Queen Wilhelmina could use these titles as daughter but not pass it with her death in 1962.

Maybe Elisabeth Clotilde von Rintelen née Gräfin von Merenberg can use these titles as she is the very last legal male agnate in the Nassau dynasty but she will not be able to pass the titles to her offspring.

In daily practice these title have become part of the Etc. Etc. Etc. and are considered "historic decorum" rather than titles in real use.
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  #67  
Old 01-11-2021, 11:17 AM
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This is a very interesting thread !
We often go to visit Huis Doorn , I did not know the last Kaiser paid the House himself.
(out of topic , in a village nearby Drie Bergen , we celebrate the Birthday of our handicaped Son in Restaurant de Wapen and each time they are coming with the candles singing "Lang zal hij leven in de Gloria") Thanks the Dutch !
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  #68  
Old 01-11-2021, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Willem-Alexander's only titles are Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer van Amsberg.
The King evidently has a different opinion; see the official list of titles in post #64.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
But as nobility is hereditary in the male lineage, all noble titles de facto became ended with the death of Willem III of Orange-Nassau, King of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg in 1890. His daughter Queen Wilhelmina could use these titles as daughter but not pass it with her death in 1962.
In the preparatory work for the Act of Membership of the Royal House in 2002 the government stated that the titles which are part of the "etc. etc. etc." are linked to the Crown and are not included in the Dutch nobility. They stated that in consequence the titles did not become extinct with Princess Wilhelmina's death in 1962 but were instead transferred on her abdication in 1948 to Queen Juliana.

Additionally, the government promised that Jonkvrouw/Jonkheer van Amsberg would be included in the "etc. etc. etc." If the decision stands, we can expect the oldest child of Catharina-Amalia will be a Jonkvrouw or Jonkheer van Amsberg even if she or he is not in the male lineage of Claus van Amsberg.
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  #69  
Old 01-11-2021, 12:04 PM
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What is the status of those who received Dutch knighthoods since 1996 are they treated as nobles as in the UK?
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  #70  
Old 01-11-2021, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Additionally, the government promised that Jonkvrouw/Jonkheer van Amsberg would be included in the "etc. etc. etc." If the decision stands, we can expect the oldest child of Catharina-Amalia will be a Jonkvrouw or Jonkheer van Amsberg even if she or he is not be in the male lineage of Claus van Amsberg.
Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.
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  #71  
Old 01-11-2021, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.
It is mentioned in the Memorie van toelichting for the parliamentary bill of consent to Willem-Alexander's marriage, if you are interested in reading the explanation.

I agree it is a bit odd, but I suppose it is consistent with the treatment of the other titles of the Crown. The King is Count of Katzenelnbogen, etc. etc. etc., but the princesses and princes are not. Even Queen Máxima is not Countess of Katzenelnbogen etc. if I understand it correctly.

Having said that, I'm not sure I see the need to add it to the historical titles of the Crown, but I wonder if that is to prevent the title from becoming extinct when the male line expires.
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  #72  
Old 01-12-2021, 05:35 AM
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On itself it is logic that the King himself is no part of the Nobility. He is part of the Royal House. The only members of the Royal House whom were (briefly) part of the Nobility were the three children of Prince Constantijn (until 2013).

Members of the wider royal family (not Royal House!) in the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands:

Johan Friso Christiaan Bernhard David prins van Oranje-Nassau, graaf van Oranje-Nassau, jonkheer van Amsberg (2004-2013)

Emma Luana Ninette Sophie, gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2005)

Joanna Zaria Nicoline Milou, gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2006)

Eloise Sophie Beatrix Laurence gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2002)

Claus-Casimir Bernhard Marius Max graaf van Oranje-Nassau, jonkheer van Amsberg (2004)

Leonore Marie Irene Enrica gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2006)

Carlos Javier Bernardo prins de Bourbon de Parme (since 1996)

Luisa Irene Constance Anna Maria prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2012)

Cecilia Maria Johanna Beatrix prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2013)

Carlos Enrique Leonard prins de Bourbon de Parme (2016)

Margarita Maria Beatrix prinses de Bourbon de Parme (since 1996)

Jaime Bernardo prins de Bourbon de Parme (since 1996)

Zita Clara prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2014)

Gloria Irene prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2016)

Carlos Hugo Roderick Sybren Klynstra has requested to be known with the title and surname of his natural father (Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme) but apparently it has not come to a Royal Decree yet, for his formal admission and registration into the Adelsregister.
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  #73  
Old 09-14-2021, 06:28 AM
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An article about the baron Otto van Boetzelaer and the family estate Eyckenstein:

https://www.quotenet.nl/vastgoed/a37...e-lichten-aan/
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  #74  
Old 09-14-2021, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
What is the status of those who received Dutch knighthoods since 1996 are they treated as nobles as in the UK?

Generally speaking, foreign nobility is not legally recognized in the UK as far as I know. Social treatment is a different issue though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.

I fail to understand how Jonkvrouw/heer van Amsberg can be added to etc. etc., in other words merged with the Crown, and, at the same time, be held by and transmitted hereditarily in the van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg family, which is a separate comital house that does not coincide with the Dutch royal house.


Another question I have is whether Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a title or merely an honorific predicate for untitled nobility. I know that there are different interpretations in Belgium and the Netherlands, but I would appreciate if other posters could clarify this issue.
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  #75  
Old 09-14-2021, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In "egalitarian" Netherlands it was established by the Govdtnment that the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules: the Dutch decided not to change these rules. After all: when the policy is to phase it out slowly (the Nobility is declining since it is "frozen" since WWII) it makes no sense to open all doors my taking away all (gender) limitations on hereditary nobility.
While that was the excuse used by the Government, the reality was that for male nobles, the Government opened the doors by taking away the legitimacy limitations on hereditary nobility and allowing men to pass their titles to their out of wedlock and adopted children. Considering that approximately one in two children in the Netherlands is born to unmarried parents, the change is likely to radically increase the number of male-line descendants who are allowed to inherit titles of nobility.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Another question I have is whether Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a title or merely an honorific predicate for untitled nobility. I know that there are different interpretations in Belgium and the Netherlands, but I would appreciate if other posters could clarify this issue.
According to the Dutch High Council of the Nobility and the Belgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, respectively, Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a predicate in the Netherlands and a title in Belgium.

https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/adel/...n-in-nederland
https://diplomatie.belgium.be/nl/Die...orden/adel/faq
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  #76  
Old 10-13-2021, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In the UK, with respect to succession to peerages, the courts have adjudicated that if a legally married couple has a child conceived by IVF with a donated egg or sperm using a licensed clinic, or if a child is born of a surrogate mother who then legally transfers parental rights to the couple, then the child is their legal son or daughter, but cannot inherit the title or any estate that is linked to the title if applicable. That is true regardless of whether either one or both of the legal parents are the biological parents of the child.

I assume the Netherlands would perhaps take a more progressive view though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
I am not sure if they would -for the nobility at least. The Spanish change for noble families where the eldest child -regardless of the sex- succeeds was not copied in The Netherlands for example. AFAIK the policy of the state is to slowly let the nobility fade out/ become extinct, so making titles easier to inherit does not make sense in that respect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Indeed, the Nobility is seen as a historical institute with historical rules. Effectively a glass dome has been put over the Nobility with three exceptions:

1.
New creations: only members of the Royal House.

2.
New incorporations: only nationalized foreigners holding a title from a country with a similar system of Nobility.

3.
New recognitions: only persons who can claim to descend in paternal (male) lineage from Nobility in the Low Countries before 1795.

Opening female succession would mean extending and expanding Nobility in perpetuity and that is not exactly what Government wants since WWII.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Nonetheless the Government expanded the inheritance of titles of nobility when they opened inheritance to out-of-wedlock and adoptive children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.

The expansion to adopted children was very much against the wishes and the intention of the Government. It is the result of a jurisprudence in a juridical case in which an adopted child started a lawsuit against the State: he not only wished to be known with his adoptive father's surname but also with his adoptive father's predicate and/or title.

The viewpoint of the Government is in the Explanatory Memorandum attched to the Nobility Act 1994: 'The aim has been to maintain the policy with regard to Nobility and the prevailing Nobility Act. The existing Royal Decrees, in which the right of nobility have been implied, will be maintained. No re-codification of Nobility as such has been made.

In the opinion of the Government, the Nobility must be seen as a historically grown institution, recognized and protected by law, which can only be maintained as a historical institution indeed, but which loses its foundation if one tries to modify or organize it according to contemporary ideas.'
Regarding

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.
Are both male and female parents not likewise legal parents for law? Does the Civic Code make a difference between male and female parents, even after abolishing the difference between legitimate and illegitimate parents?
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  #77  
Old 10-13-2021, 08:45 PM
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Yes, titles of nobility can only be passed on through male-lineage; that hasn't changed.

As Duc_et_Pair explained, they most likely don't want the number of nobles to suddenly increase enormously if all couples with one noble parent start to pass on their titles to their children. If the system were different with only one child (typically the eldest son but that could easily be changed in eldest child like it was done in Spain) inheriting the title, it would be a very different story imho.
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  #78  
Old 10-13-2021, 08:51 PM
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Under the Dutch Civil Code, the child of a nobleman must carry the surname of their noble father to inherit his nobility. So, the change in the Netherlands to give nobility to male-line descendants born out of wedlock will, in all likelihood, increase the number of members of the nobility much more rapidly than a hypothetical change to give women equal rights to transmit nobility would have, because approximately one in two children is now born to unmarried parents whereas only a small minority of children carry the surname of their mother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Yes, titles of nobility can only be passed on through male-lineage; that hasn't changed.
The question was about the Civil Code, not titles of nobility (because, according to Duc_et_Pair's post, the former was used as an argument for the latter in regards to children born out of wedlock).
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  #79  
Old 10-13-2021, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


Under the Dutch Civil Code, the child of a nobleman must carry the surname of their noble father to inherit his nobility. So, the change in the Netherlands to give nobility to male-line descendants born out of wedlock will, in all likelihood, increase the number of members of the nobility much more rapidly than a hypothetical change to give women equal rights to transmit nobility would have, because approximately one in two children is now born to unmarried parents whereas only a small minority of children carry the surname of their mother.

The question was about the Civil Code, not titles of nobility (because, according to Duc_et_Pair's post, the former was used as an argument for the latter in regards to children born out of wedlock).
Your reasoning seems to assume that laws don't impact people's behavior. My assumption is that at least some people adapt their behavior to the law; so while they might now not use the mother's name because she cannot pass on her noble title; if she suddenly could it is not unlikely that many more will decide to pick hers over his.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least previous to the law being changed, the number of children born out of wedlock among noble men was much lower than the general population, so I don't think the decrease would have gone as fast as you seem to suggest.
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  #80  
Old 10-13-2021, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Your reasoning seems to assume that laws don't impact people's behavior. My assumption is that at least some people adapt their behavior to the law; so while they might now not use the mother's name because she cannot pass on her noble title; if she suddenly could it is not unlike that many more will decide to pick hers over his.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least previous to the law being changed, the number of children born out of wedlock among noble men was much lower than the general population, so I don't think the decrease would have gone as fast as you seem to suggest.
That's not impossible, but again the argument is also relevant to the change to nobility law which allowed unmarried fathers to pass on their titles. Prior to the law being changed, one could argue that if they could pass on their noble titles to children born out of wedlock, then more noblemen would have or legally acknowledge out of wedlock children.

Regarding the possible increase in maternal surnames, there is no way of knowing for a fact how removing the gender discrimination for titles would affect the choice of names, but my assumption is that it would make little difference. In Germany, a country with shared historical ties to the Netherlands, titles are part of the legal name and, as with other names, can be passed by women to their children. That being the case, most titled women continue to have their children take the name of their father alone.
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