Dutch Nobility

[maria-olivia]

The late Barones Marie Hélène de Rothschlld was born van Zuylen. Are they Dutch Nobels?

 

[Marengo]

Yes, she descends from the branch van Zuylen van Nyevelt van de Haar of the van Zuylen van Nievelt family from Utrecht, which can trace its origins back to the 13th century. The branch of which Helene descends relocated to Belgium (or Southern Netherlands at the time) in the 17th century and changed 'van Nievelt' to 'van Nyevelt' and converted to catholicism.

The Dutch branches of the family have become extinct in 1947. The last two baronesses (1st cousins of each other) married two brothers, baron Alexander and baron Anne Willem van Nagell.

Marie-Helene de Rotschilds grandfather baron Etienne married Helene de Rotschild (also from the French branch of that family) and the couple restaured De Haar castle in Haarzuylens, near Utrecht with her money. The castle was used only in the late summer/early autumn to entertain guests. Exterior and interior were designed by Pierre Kuypers, the architect who was also responsible for the Central Station and the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam.

I have visited the castle once, it is a rather odd structure. Inside even more so than outside, it struck me as a great folly TBH. A great kitch fantasy of what such a castle could have looked like in medieval times but with all the comforts of the fin de siècle. Near the entry there is a bathtub that would have been filled with bottles of champagne for the guests they were entertaining. When I visited they had a small exhibition about guests that were received by the family: Brigitte Bardot was a guest and she used a moped in the corridors. Other celebrities such as Gregory Peck, Yves Saint Laurent, Roger Moore and Joan Collins also stayed in the castle. Queen Emma visited the castle while it was being built but I do not remember if the Dutch royals ever stayed there as guests.

https://www.kasteeldehaar.nl/

The family only survives in Belgium. The four eldest daughters of Marie-Helene de Rotschilds' brother Thierry IIRC all live in France. Baron Thierry sold the castle to a foundation in the year 2000 because he were unable to pay for the upkeep of the castle. He died in 2011 and is burried in the family crypt in the little church next to the castle. In 2012 his daughters sold the furniture of the castle to the same foundation. The gaudy pieces would not sell well on the antique market. The family can still use a part of the castle but I do not believe they do so on a regular basis.

An extensive genealogy can be found on the Dutch wikipedia website:

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Zuylen_van_Nievelt

Oddly enough there is a second family with the same name incorporated in the Dutch nobility. This family Van Zuylen van Nijevelt is however from Rotterdam and from a much more recent origin (became noble during the Napoleonic era). The family adopted the name as they claimed to be related to the van Zuylen family from Utrecht but they have failed to show any evidence for this. The chef of the family uses the title of count while other members are barons.

The present count is married to the grand mistress of the court, Countess Bibi (Marie-Louise) van Zuylen van Nijevelt, née Jkvr. den Beer Poortugael. Their estate in Wassenaar is now an amusement park called Duinrell.

https://www.duinrell.com/

 

[An Ard Ri]

Wouldn't the Duke of Guelders have been the highest ranking Dutch noble and outranked the Counts of Holland and Zeeland?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

[...]The registration form contained the field 'title', [...] or probably academic title but the field contained the following options:

Baron
Barones
Graaf
Gravin
Hertog
Hertogin
Markies
Markiezin
Prins
Prinses
Ridder

And the next field was 'predicate', with the options jonkheer/jonkvrouw...[...]

The Royal Decree of May 15th 1996 described them without any title or prefix, so they had no any title in the Dutch municipal registers.

"

[....]

Have approved and understand:

1.
Carlos Javier Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme and Jaime Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, and all their descendants in the male lineage, both male as well female;
Margarita Maria Beatriz de Bourbon de Parme and Maria Carolina Christina de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, for their persons exclusively;
to incorporate them into the Nobility of the Netherlands with the title of prince and princess and the prefix Royal Highness.

[...]

I would like to point out for those who are more used to the British system of nobility that, as we can observe, the Dutch system is more comparable to the Belgian system of nobility:

Legally, the family name or territorial designation is not contained in the title. For example, Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme would fill in his title on the registration form as Prince (and not Prince de Bourbon de Parme), as de Bourbon de Parme is registered as his surname rather than as part of his title.

The king is Duke of Limburg I believe.

It is not included in his official titulature.

N.B. Volledige officiële titels van de Koning: Koning der Nederlanden, Prins van Oranje-Nassau, Jonkheer van Amsberg, Graaf van Katzenelnbogen, Graaf van Vianden, Graaf van Diez, Graaf van Spiegelberg, Graaf van Buren, Graaf van Leerdam, Graaf van Culemborg, Markies van Veere en Vlissingen, Baron van Breda, Baron van Diest, Baron van Beilstein, Baron van de stad Grave en het Land van Cuyk, Baron van IJsselstein, Baron van Cranendonk, Baron van Eindhoven, Baron van Liesveld, Erf- en Vrijheer van Ameland, Heer van Borculo, Heer van Bredevoort, Heer van Lichtenvoorde, Heer van 't Loo, Heer van Geertruidenberg, Heer van Klundert, Heer van Zevenbergen, Heer van Hoge en Lage Zwaluwe, Heer van Naaldwijk, Heer van Polanen, Heer van Sint-Maartensdijk, Heer van Soest, Baarn en Ter Eem, Heer van Willemstad, Heer van Steenbergen, Heer van Montfort, Heer van Sankt Vith, Heer van Bütgenbach, Heer van Dasburg, Burggraaf van Antwerpen.​

Only the title of Ridder (knight) has no feminine form. The daughter of a knight is a jonkvrouw.

Then I imagine the wife of a knight is a Mevrouw?

The Queen has approved the following Arms to be used by the family de Bourbon de Parme: https://www.adelinnederland.nl/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Bourbon-de-Parme-wapen-De.jpg

It is interesting that, if I am not mistaken, it is crowned with a royal instead of a princely crown, and that it does not consist of the grand arms of the duchy of Parma but only the differenced arms of France.

 

[Marengo]

AFAIK the RF has stopped using the title Duke of Limburg. From what I can find some say they stopped using it since the end of the German confederation in 1866 - of which the duchy was oficially a member up to that point. Elsewhere I have read that Queen Wilhelmina was the last person to use the title but I have seen no evidence for that claim.

In 2014 the governor of the province of Limburg asked the Dutch counsil of nobility if there is a legal way for the King to use the title 'Duke of Limburg'. The counsil adviced the title has no official validity at the moment as there was never a royal decree issued where the title was named. The constitution of 1815 has chosen to list the titles of the monarch as enz. enz. enz. (etcetera, etcetera, etcetera) as not to name all the titles of the monarch. The counsil argued that the governor is free to refer to the title at cultural events to mark the rich history of the province.

Note that the present province of Limburg has almost no overlap with the medieval Duchy of the same name.

Then I imagine the wife of a knight is a Mevrouw?

Indeed.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Willem-Alexander's only titles are Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer van Amsberg.

The Etc. Etc. Etc. might hold all the titles held by Willem VI of Orange-Nassau, Prince of Orange, Fürst of Nassau-Dietz (son of the last Stadtholder of the United Provinces) who would become King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg.

But as nobility is hereditary in the male lineage, all noble titles de facto became ended with the death of Willem III of Orange-Nassau, King of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg in 1890. His daughter Queen Wilhelmina could use these titles as daughter but not pass it with her death in 1962.

Maybe Elisabeth Clotilde von Rintelen née Gräfin von Merenberg can use these titles as she is the very last legal male agnate in the Nassau dynasty but she will not be able to pass the titles to her offspring.

In daily practice these title have become part of the Etc. Etc. Etc. and are considered "historic decorum" rather than titles in real use.

 

[maria-olivia]

This is a very interesting thread !
We often go to visit Huis Doorn , I did not know the last Kaiser paid the House himself.
(out of topic , in a village nearby Drie Bergen , we celebrate the Birthday of our handicaped Son in Restaurant de Wapen and each time they are coming with the candles singing "Lang zal hij leven in de Gloria") Thanks the Dutch !

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Willem-Alexander's only titles are Prince of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau and Jonkheer van Amsberg.

The King evidently has a different opinion; see the official list of titles in post #64.

But as nobility is hereditary in the male lineage, all noble titles de facto became ended with the death of Willem III of Orange-Nassau, King of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg in 1890. His daughter Queen Wilhelmina could use these titles as daughter but not pass it with her death in 1962.

In the preparatory work for the Act of Membership of the Royal House in 2002 the government stated that the titles which are part of the "etc. etc. etc." are linked to the Crown and are not included in the Dutch nobility. They stated that in consequence the titles did not become extinct with Princess Wilhelmina's death in 1962 but were instead transferred on her abdication in 1948 to Queen Juliana.

Additionally, the government promised that Jonkvrouw/Jonkheer van Amsberg would be included in the "etc. etc. etc." If the decision stands, we can expect the oldest child of Catharina-Amalia will be a Jonkvrouw or Jonkheer van Amsberg even if she or he is not in the male lineage of Claus van Amsberg.

 

[An Ard Ri]

What is the status of those who received Dutch knighthoods since 1996 are they treated as nobles as in the UK?

 

[Somebody]

Additionally, the government promised that Jonkvrouw/Jonkheer van Amsberg would be included in the "etc. etc. etc." If the decision stands, we can expect the oldest child of Catharina-Amalia will be a Jonkvrouw or Jonkheer van Amsberg even if she or he is not be in the male lineage of Claus van Amsberg.

Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.

It is mentioned in the Memorie van toelichting for the parliamentary bill of consent to Willem-Alexander's marriage, if you are interested in reading the explanation.

I agree it is a bit odd, but I suppose it is consistent with the treatment of the other titles of the Crown. The King is Count of Katzenelnbogen, etc. etc. etc., but the princesses and princes are not. Even Queen Máxima is not Countess of Katzenelnbogen etc. if I understand it correctly.

Having said that, I'm not sure I see the need to add it to the historical titles of the Crown, but I wonder if that is to prevent the title from becoming extinct when the male line expires.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

On itself it is logic that the King himself is no part of the Nobility. He is part of the Royal House. The only members of the Royal House whom were (briefly) part of the Nobility were the three children of Prince Constantijn (until 2013).

Members of the wider royal family (not Royal House!) in the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands:

Johan Friso Christiaan Bernhard David prins van Oranje-Nassau, graaf van Oranje-Nassau, jonkheer van Amsberg (2004-2013)

Emma Luana Ninette Sophie, gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2005)

Joanna Zaria Nicoline Milou, gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2006)

Eloise Sophie Beatrix Laurence gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2002)

Claus-Casimir Bernhard Marius Max graaf van Oranje-Nassau, jonkheer van Amsberg (2004)

Leonore Marie Irene Enrica gravin van Oranje-Nassau, jonkvrouw van Amsberg (2006)

Carlos Javier Bernardo prins de Bourbon de Parme (since 1996)

Luisa Irene Constance Anna Maria prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2012)

Cecilia Maria Johanna Beatrix prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2013)

Carlos Enrique Leonard prins de Bourbon de Parme (2016)

Margarita Maria Beatrix prinses de Bourbon de Parme (since 1996)

Jaime Bernardo prins de Bourbon de Parme (since 1996)

Zita Clara prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2014)

Gloria Irene prinses de Bourbon de Parme (2016)

Carlos Hugo Roderick Sybren Klynstra has requested to be known with the title and surname of his natural father (Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme) but apparently it has not come to a Royal Decree yet, for his formal admission and registration into the Adelsregister.

 

[Marengo]

An article about the baron Otto van Boetzelaer and the family estate Eyckenstein:

https://www.quotenet.nl/vastgoed/a3...ie-van-boetzelaer-al-150-jaar-de-lichten-aan/

 

[Mbruno]

What is the status of those who received Dutch knighthoods since 1996 are they treated as nobles as in the UK?

Generally speaking, foreign nobility is not legally recognized in the UK as far as I know. Social treatment is a different issue though.

Interesting as the three princesses themselves are not Jonkvrouw van Amsberg. According to the act of consent for their parents' marriage they are only princess of the Netherlands and princess of Orange-Nassau; unlike their paternal cousins who are count(ess) of Orange-Nassau and jonkvrouw/heer of Amsberg.

I fail to understand how Jonkvrouw/heer van Amsberg can be added to etc. etc., in other words merged with the Crown, and, at the same time, be held by and transmitted hereditarily in the van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg family, which is a separate comital house that does not coincide with the Dutch royal house.


Another question I have is whether Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a title or merely an honorific predicate for untitled nobility. I know that there are different interpretations in Belgium and the Netherlands, but I would appreciate if other posters could clarify this issue.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In "egalitarian" Netherlands it was established by the Govdtnment that the Nobility is a historic institute with historic rules: the Dutch decided not to change these rules. After all: when the policy is to phase it out slowly (the Nobility is declining since it is "frozen" since WWII) it makes no sense to open all doors my taking away all (gender) limitations on hereditary nobility.

While that was the excuse used by the Government, the reality was that for male nobles, the Government opened the doors by taking away the legitimacy limitations on hereditary nobility and allowing men to pass their titles to their out of wedlock and adopted children. Considering that approximately one in two children in the Netherlands is born to unmarried parents, the change is likely to radically increase the number of male-line descendants who are allowed to inherit titles of nobility.

Another question I have is whether Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a title or merely an honorific predicate for untitled nobility. I know that there are different interpretations in Belgium and the Netherlands, but I would appreciate if other posters could clarify this issue.

According to the Dutch High Council of the Nobility and the Belgian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, respectively, Jonkvrouw/heer is considered a predicate in the Netherlands and a title in Belgium.

https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/adel/adellijke-titulatuur/adellijke-titels-en-predicaten-in-nederland
https://diplomatie.belgium.be/nl/Diensten/Protocol/Adel_en_ridderorden/adel/faq

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In the UK, with respect to succession to peerages, the courts have adjudicated that if a legally married couple has a child conceived by IVF with a donated egg or sperm using a licensed clinic, or if a child is born of a surrogate mother who then legally transfers parental rights to the couple, then the child is their legal son or daughter, but cannot inherit the title or any estate that is linked to the title if applicable. That is true regardless of whether either one or both of the legal parents are the biological parents of the child.

I assume the Netherlands would perhaps take a more progressive view though.

I am not sure if they would -for the nobility at least. The Spanish change for noble families where the eldest child -regardless of the sex- succeeds was not copied in The Netherlands for example. AFAIK the policy of the state is to slowly let the nobility fade out/ become extinct, so making titles easier to inherit does not make sense in that respect.

Indeed, the Nobility is seen as a historical institute with historical rules. Effectively a glass dome has been put over the Nobility with three exceptions:

1.
New creations: only members of the Royal House.

2.
New incorporations: only nationalized foreigners holding a title from a country with a similar system of Nobility.

3.
New recognitions: only persons who can claim to descend in paternal (male) lineage from Nobility in the Low Countries before 1795.

Opening female succession would mean extending and expanding Nobility in perpetuity and that is not exactly what Government wants since WWII.

Nonetheless the Government expanded the inheritance of titles of nobility when they opened inheritance to out-of-wedlock and adoptive children.

The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.

The expansion to adopted children was very much against the wishes and the intention of the Government. It is the result of a jurisprudence in a juridical case in which an adopted child started a lawsuit against the State: he not only wished to be known with his adoptive father's surname but also with his adoptive father's predicate and/or title.

The viewpoint of the Government is in the Explanatory Memorandum attched to the Nobility Act 1994: 'The aim has been to maintain the policy with regard to Nobility and the prevailing Nobility Act. The existing Royal Decrees, in which the right of nobility have been implied, will be maintained. No re-codification of Nobility as such has been made.

In the opinion of the Government, the Nobility must be seen as a historically grown institution, recognized and protected by law, which can only be maintained as a historical institution indeed, but which loses its foundation if one tries to modify or organize it according to contemporary ideas.'

Regarding

The Government did expand it to children out of wedlock as the Civic Code no longer makes a difference in legal and illegal children, as a quite considerable part of the population is not even married but have children anyway. All children are legal children for law.

Are both male and female parents not likewise legal parents for law? Does the Civic Code make a difference between male and female parents, even after abolishing the difference between legitimate and illegitimate parents?

 

[Somebody]

Yes, titles of nobility can only be passed on through male-lineage; that hasn't changed.

As Duc_et_Pair explained, they most likely don't want the number of nobles to suddenly increase enormously if all couples with one noble parent start to pass on their titles to their children. If the system were different with only one child (typically the eldest son but that could easily be changed in eldest child like it was done in Spain) inheriting the title, it would be a very different story imho.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Under the Dutch Civil Code, the child of a nobleman must carry the surname of their noble father to inherit his nobility. So, the change in the Netherlands to give nobility to male-line descendants born out of wedlock will, in all likelihood, increase the number of members of the nobility much more rapidly than a hypothetical change to give women equal rights to transmit nobility would have, because approximately one in two children is now born to unmarried parents whereas only a small minority of children carry the surname of their mother.

Yes, titles of nobility can only be passed on through male-lineage; that hasn't changed.

The question was about the Civil Code, not titles of nobility (because, according to Duc_et_Pair's post, the former was used as an argument for the latter in regards to children born out of wedlock).

 

[Somebody]

Under the Dutch Civil Code, the child of a nobleman must carry the surname of their noble father to inherit his nobility. So, the change in the Netherlands to give nobility to male-line descendants born out of wedlock will, in all likelihood, increase the number of members of the nobility much more rapidly than a hypothetical change to give women equal rights to transmit nobility would have, because approximately one in two children is now born to unmarried parents whereas only a small minority of children carry the surname of their mother.

The question was about the Civil Code, not titles of nobility (because, according to Duc_et_Pair's post, the former was used as an argument for the latter in regards to children born out of wedlock).

Your reasoning seems to assume that laws don't impact people's behavior. My assumption is that at least some people adapt their behavior to the law; so while they might now not use the mother's name because she cannot pass on her noble title; if she suddenly could it is not unlikely that many more will decide to pick hers over his.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least previous to the law being changed, the number of children born out of wedlock among noble men was much lower than the general population, so I don't think the decrease would have gone as fast as you seem to suggest.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Your reasoning seems to assume that laws don't impact people's behavior. My assumption is that at least some people adapt their behavior to the law; so while they might now not use the mother's name because she cannot pass on her noble title; if she suddenly could it is not unlike that many more will decide to pick hers over his.

I wouldn't be surprised if at least previous to the law being changed, the number of children born out of wedlock among noble men was much lower than the general population, so I don't think the decrease would have gone as fast as you seem to suggest.

That's not impossible, but again the argument is also relevant to the change to nobility law which allowed unmarried fathers to pass on their titles. Prior to the law being changed, one could argue that if they could pass on their noble titles to children born out of wedlock, then more noblemen would have or legally acknowledge out of wedlock children.

Regarding the possible increase in maternal surnames, there is no way of knowing for a fact how removing the gender discrimination for titles would affect the choice of names, but my assumption is that it would make little difference. In Germany, a country with shared historical ties to the Netherlands, titles are part of the legal name and, as with other names, can be passed by women to their children. That being the case, most titled women continue to have their children take the name of their father alone.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

That's not impossible, but again the argument is also relevant to the change to nobility law which allowed unmarried fathers to pass on their titles. Prior to the law being changed, one could argue that if they could pass on their noble titles to children born out of wedlock, then more noblemen would have or legally acknowledge out of wedlock children.

Regarding the possible increase in maternal surnames, there is no way of knowing for a fact how removing the gender discrimination for titles would affect the choice of names, but my assumption is that it would make little difference. In Germany, a country with shared historical ties to the Netherlands, titles are part of the legal name and, as with other names, can be passed by women to their children. That being the case, most titled women continue to have their children take the name of their father alone.

The difference with Germany is that there the former titles do not exist anymore but have become surnames. A paternal or a maternal surname can be passed to children (or even a combination of both surnames). This is the actually exactly the same in the Netherlands.

But in the Netherlands a title of Nobility or a predicate is a separate part of a surname. It is a title or a predicate. So a gravin Wolff-Metternich can pass her surname to her sons or daughters but not her title. Her children will be Mr and Ms Wolff-Metternich, no graaf / gravin (count / countess) and no hooggeboren heer / vrouwe (highborn lord / lady).

In daily practice nobles seldom or never use their title anyway. It is Eelco Bosch van Rosenthal (a news anchor), he never uses his predicate Jonkheer. It is Sander Schimmelpenninck (a current affairs opinion maker), he never uses his title graaf.

A Dutch millionaire, Robert-Jan van Ogtrop (from a Dutch patrician family) is son of the Hungarian countess Pálffy de Erdõd and had the wish to have his mother's surname and title registered into the recognized and protected Nobility of an EU-memberstate. (Hungary does not know noble titles anymore). Via this way there would be legal counts and countesses Pálffy de Erdõd with their surname and title in passports and in official documents.

But when he learned he could indeed be known as Robert-Jan Pálffy de Erdõd in Dutch municipal administration, but not as a Count, he ended his attempt: there are already Pálffy de Erdõds walking around (see his mother). His aim was exactly to have the noble title formally enregistered.

Was Robert-Jan van Ontrop a German, he could have wished to be known as Robert-Jan Graf Pálffy de Erdõd and his descendants as well, as this is "just" a surname in Germany. So suddenly there would be Grafen and Gräfinnen Pálffy de Erdõd walking around, who are not at all a male-line descendant to a Pálffy de Erdõd. That is a situation the Dutch Government finds "undesireable" and undermining the historic institution of Nobility.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The nobility laws changed in the 90s to include children that were born out of wedlock, they can now inherit titles (which Willem-Alexander's cousin Carlos knows very well given that his son that he has no relationship with used to become a Royal Highness and prince de Bourbon de Parme).

I am not sure what the rules are regarding children born from other parents than the one in a marriage in the case of nobility (for example adoption, egg cell donation, sperm cell donation (or both) from either a known or unknown donor etc). Nonetheless, as the PM said: that will be discussed if the need ever arises.

In regard to nobility laws, as opposed to the laws of royal succession, the Council of State ruled that the clause "children born out of wedlock" is inclusive of adoptive children. I assume then that it also extends to children born from egg or sperm cell donation.

https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/adel/wet-op-de-adeldom

So suddenly there would be Grafen and Gräfinnen Pálffy de Erdõd walking around, who are not at all a male-line descendant to a Pálffy de Erdõd. That is a situation the Dutch Government finds "undesireable" and undermining the historic institution of Nobility.

Yes, but descendants of unmarried couples bearing titles of nobility is also a situation at odds with the historic rules, which undermines the Government's claim that their opposition to female succession is out of a simple desire to maintain the historical laws of nobility.

But in the Netherlands a title of Nobility or a predicate is a separate part of a surname. It is a title or a predicate. So a gravin Wolff-Metternich can pass her surname to her sons or daughters but not her title. Her children will be Mr and Ms Wolff-Metternich, no graaf / gravin (count / countess) and no hooggeboren heer / vrouwe (highborn lord / lady).

I understand. The point I was attempting to make was that in the Netherlands, the title cannot be passed on in the absence of the surname, even though the surname can be passed on without the title.

 

[Marengo]

The daughters of the late Baron Thierry van Zuylen van Nyevelt van de Haar are having some disagreements over the use of Castle de Haar in Haarzuylens. The baron was a brother of Marie-Hélène de Rotschild.

In 2000 Baron Thierry sold his castle to Stichting Kasteel de Haar. The estate was sold to Verniging Natuurmonumenten (Society for Preservation of Nature Monuments in the Netherlands). The family is still entitled to use the châtelet next to the castle.

The baron was married and divorced three times. From his first marriage he had four daughters. The eldest of them is Bss Alexandra (65). From the third marriage there is one daughter, Bss Allegra (27). Bss Alexandra is a board member of the Castle association.

Last year Bss Allegra went to the court to get access to the castle. The association / her sister have denied access to the castle to the younger sister. Last year a judge ruled that the sisters had to try to solve the issue among themselves. This did not work out.

According to the lawyer of foundation, there have been attempts at conversations but they did not succeed. According to them Bss Allegra was 'unpleasant' and she puts 'the heels in the sand' (she is not cooporative at all). The lawyer of Bss Allegra claims that no conversations were ever held: 'the drawbridge has been pulled and locked'.

According to the press the reason that the foundation refuse to let Bss Allegra enter the castle is because there have been some issues in the past. The 'party baroness' enjoyed hosting parties in the castle. These parties led to many complaints about noise pollution by neighbours and the fire alarms were activated too. Since these incidents the foundation denied access to the castle to the younger baroness.

The lawyer of Bss Allegra argues she wants access to the castle, the châtelet and the grave of her father, who is burried in a chapel on the estate. The foundation claims that the Bss can always visit her father's grave if she buys an entry ticket.

The attitude of the association was described as 'ice cold' by the lawyer of Bss Allegra.

https://www.rtvutrecht.nl/nieuws/35...g-tot-graf-vader-ze-kan-toegangskaartje-kopen

https://www.quotenet.nl/zakelijk/rechtszaken/a43348673/feestbarones-kasteel-de-haar-toegangskaartje/

After the public hearing the two sides apparently will try again to come to an understanding in private.

Note that Bss Allegra's mother, Jacqueline van Zuylen, née Johnson. She was suing her lawyer two years ago as her money from the divorce settlement had disappeared:
https://www.tatler.com/article/baroness-jacqueline-van-zuylen-sues-lawyer

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

In the Year Review 2021 the High Council of Nobility gave it's opinion about a Bill in which parents are free to give their children the name of the mother, or a combination of both names.

The High Council of Nobility noted that the title is connected to a surname. A change of surnames, even when both parents are noble, must lead to a loss of nobility.

For an example, the father is a jonkheer Van Lidth de Jeude, the mother is a gravin de Marchant et d'Ansembourg. As nobility is hereditary via the paternal lineage, the children are jonkheer (jonkvrouw) van Lidth de Jeude.

Would the parents use the new legal possibilities to give the child both names or the name of the mother, then that is possible but without the predicate or title as it does no longer connect to the original surname in the Royal Decree and the Letters Patent establishing nobility.

In the same Year Review the High Council of Nobility asked attention of the Government for consequences of a less strict Transgender Act. As Nobility is hereditary via the male lineage, the offspring of a female noble becoming a male noble can not mean her (now his) offspring are heirs of the body male.

Then the High Council of Nobility was pleased to give a positive advice to recognition of native Nobility. In 1825 three brothers of the Friesian family Lauta van Aysma were recognized to belong to older existing Nobility (before 1795) and admitted into the Peerage of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, untitled and with the predicate jonkheer (jonkvrouw).

Thanks to investigation in archives and additional DNA proof it was found that the requester had an ancestor whom was a half-brother to these three Lauta van Aysma gentlemen. The family was seen as extinct since 1898 as the three brothers' male lineages ended. Their father however married a second time. His fourth son was never admitted into the registers. Possibly an omission back then. Thanks to documents and DNA the High Council gave a positive recommendation to the King. In the meantime the King has been pleased to recognize François Lauta van Aysma as belonging to the Nobility indeed. Sadly the newly revived dynasty Lauta van Aysma will become extinct again as the new jonkheer has no sons.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

In the Year Review 2021 the High Council of Nobility gave it's opinion about a Bill in which parents are free to give their children the name of the mother, or a combination of both names.

The High Council of Nobility noted that the title is connected to a surname. A change of surnames, even when both parents are noble, must lead to a loss of nobility.

For an example, the father is a jonkheer Van Lidth de Jeude, the mother is a gravin de Marchant et d'Ansembourg. As nobility is hereditary via the paternal lineage, the children are jonkheer (jonkvrouw) van Lidth de Jeude.

Would the parents use the new legal possibilities to give the child both names or the name of the mother, then that is possible but without the predicate or title as it does no longer connect to the original surname in the Royal Decree and the Letters Patent establishing nobility.

In the same Year Review the High Council of Nobility asked attention of the Government for consequences of a less strict Transgender Act. As Nobility is hereditary via the male lineage, the offspring of a female noble becoming a male noble can not mean her (now his) offspring are heirs of the body male.

Then the High Council of Nobility was pleased to give a positive advice to recognition of native Nobility. In 1825 three brothers of the Friesian family Lauta van Aysma were recognized to belong to older existing Nobility (before 1795) and admitted into the Peerage of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, untitled and with the predicate jonkheer (jonkvrouw).

Thanks to investigation in archives and additional DNA proof it was found that the requester had an ancestor whom was a half-brother to these three Lauta van Aysma gentlemen. The family was seen as extinct since 1898 as the three brothers' male lineages ended. Their father however married a second time. His fourth son was never admitted into the registers. Possibly an omission back then. Thanks to documents and DNA the High Council gave a positive recommendation to the King. In the meantime the King has been pleased to recognize François Lauta van Aysma as belonging to the Nobility indeed. Sadly the newly revived dynasty Lauta van Aysma will become extinct again as the new jonkheer has no sons.

Thank you very much for writing up the year in review for us.

The original report (in Dutch) is free to download at the Council's website. The discussion of the then-bills on double surnames and gender registration is on page 5.

https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/bina...-2021/jaarverslag-hoge-raad-van-adel-2021.pdf


As I understand it, it was already settled law that women could not pass on their nobility to their children and that children bearing (only) their mother's surname could not inherit the nobility of their father. The novelty was the option for children to be given the surnames of both parents, which necessitated a decision about whether such children could inherit the nobility of their father.

Interesting that the Netherlands took a different decision than Belgium, where it was decided that children who carry both their paternal and maternal surnames may acquire their father's nobility if the father's surname precedes the mother's surname and the terms of creation permit.

In regard to the new Transgender Act: If I understand the report correctly, a person's originally registered gender governs the the transmission of nobility. So, trans women will be able to transmit their nobility to their children, and trans men will not. This is the essentially the same legal approach taken by the United Kingdom (although in the UK the legal gender discrimination is usually in the eligibility to inherit a hereditary dignity, rather than the ability to pass it on).

Op wetgevingsgebied zijn er twee wetsvoorstellen die de aandacht van de Raad vragen vanwege hun mogelijke gevolgen voor adellijke personen. Het eerste betreft het Wetsvoorstel dubbele achternamen, waarbij ouders hun kinderen voortaan hun beider geslachtsnamen kunnen geven. Aangezien bij adellijke geslachtsnamen sprake is van een koppeling tussen naam en titel of predicaat zou in gevallen waarbij een of beide ouders van adel zijn, deze wet volgens de Raad niet van toepassing moeten zijn. Mochten ouders toch hun geslachtsnamen willen samenvoegen en mocht een adellijke geslachtsnaam aldus worden gewijzigd, dan zou adeldom niet op deze kinderen overgaan.

Het tweede wetsvoorstel betreft wijzigingen (vereenvoudigingen) van de bepalingen voor geslachtsregistratie (Transgenderwet). Ook dit voorstel heeft implicaties voor adellijke personen. Adeldom vererft alleen langs mannelijke lijn. Voor het kunnen doorgeven van adeldom dient het geregistreerde geslacht bij de oorspronkelijke aangifte bij de burgerlijke stand leidend te blijven.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Thank you very much for writing up the year in review for us.

The original report (in Dutch) is free to download at the Council's website. The discussion of the then-bills on double surnames and gender registration is on page 5.

https://www.hogeraadvanadel.nl/bina...-2021/jaarverslag-hoge-raad-van-adel-2021.pdf


As I understand it, it was already settled law that women could not pass on their nobility to their children and that children bearing (only) their mother's surname could not inherit the nobility of their father. The novelty was the option for children to be given the surnames of both parents, which necessitated a decision about whether such children could inherit the nobility of their father.

Interesting that the Netherlands took a different decision than Belgium, where it was decided that children who carry both their paternal and maternal surnames may acquire their father's nobility if the father's surname precedes the mother's surname and the terms of creation permit.

In regard to the new Transgender Act: If I understand the report correctly, a person's originally registered gender governs the the transmission of nobility. So, trans women will be able to transmit their nobility to their children, and trans men will not. This is the essentially the same legal approach taken by the United Kingdom (although in the UK the legal gender discrimination is usually in the eligibility to inherit a hereditary dignity, rather than the ability to pass it on).

Yes, indeed, all correct. However it is possible to change a noble surname by making a request to the King. Usually this is for making a Genanntname (that is a German word for "named as", in Dutch "genaamd als").

For an example the last male of the noble family Ruijs de Beerenbrouck died in 1983. A nephew of this last jonkheer Gustave Ruijs de Beerenbrouck, a jonkheer Clemens van Nispen tot Sevenaer, petitioned the Queen to have his mothers' surname added to his own, as a Genanntname.

By Royal Decree of November 30th, number 99.005649, to the high- and wellborn jonkheer Carel Clemens Canisius Marie van Nispen tot Sevenaer, born in ‘s-Hertogenbosch on 31 July 1928 was graciously given permission to have his surname changed into “van Nispen tot Sevenaer genaamd Ruijs de Beerenbrouck”, to be used by him and by his descendants of the body male.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Nobility, noble titles, and surnames are not acquired by marriage. Wives and widows of noblemen are merely addressed by the surname and title or predicate of their husband by social custom. Legally, they retain the surname, the title or predicate (if any), and the non-noble or noble status which they had from birth.

Since the use of titles for wives is within the realm of social custom and not law, do wives have the option of refusing to be addressed with their husband's title and surname and continuing to use their maiden name?

And, while it would no doubt be viewed as a breach of social custom, is there any legal impediment to a husband or same-sex wife using the title and surname of their noble spouse socially, in the same manner as the wife of a nobleman?

 

[Marengo]

Omroep Max will show a reality program on NPO1 with the title ´Liefde voor het landgoed´ (Love for the estate).
They will follow several owners of country houses and estates. Among them the 93 y/o Bss Agnes van Dedem, née Kamerlingh-Onnes of Castle Vosbergen and her son Baron Menno van Dedem, Jkvr. Catharina Groeninx van Zoelen of Huys ten Donck and jhr. Otto Wttewaal van Stoetwegen, Baron Sammy Tuyll van Serooskerken, Huis Maarsbergen of a Jhr. de Beaufort and a Bss van Verschuer.

Liefde voor het landgoed | NPO Start

Landgoederen zijn vaak al generaties lang in handen van families. De bewoners is er dan ook alles aan gelegen om deze fantastische plek vol cultureel erfgoed te behouden en te blijven bewonen. Zelfs als dat betekent dat men zelf de verfkwast ter hand moet nemen, kaplaarzen moet aantrekken of op...

npo.nl

Het Huys ten Donck

Buitenplaats Het Huys ten Donck, unieke Hollands Glorie locatie onder de rook van Rotterdam te Ridderkerk aan de rivier de Nieuwe Maas, voor exclusieve ontvangsten, diners en vergaderingen, onderscheidende trouwlocatie. Uitzonderlijke plek om van jong tot oud te wonen, werken, leren en te...

huystendonck.nl

 

[An Ard Ri]

I always enjoy these type of television shows on country estates and find them highly interesting.