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  #41  
Old 01-09-2021, 03:51 PM
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The king is Duke of Limburg I believe.
Isn't Limburg in Belgium?
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  #42  
Old 01-09-2021, 05:12 PM
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Isn't Limburg in Belgium?
Yes, and in the Netherlands there is a province as well.
Same goes for Brabant.
Brabant in Belgium and Noord-Brabant (north-B) in the Netherlands.
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  #43  
Old 01-09-2021, 05:47 PM
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Belgian Limburg and Dutch Limburg. The Dutch province consists of Noord-, Midden- and Zuid-Limburg (North-, Middle- and South).
The Belgian Limburg does not have such an arrangement, only three administrative arrondissements (Hasselt, Maaseik and Tongeren).

The two Limburgs are also distinctively being called Dutch Limburg and Belgian Limburg. It can be confusing, that is so.
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  #44  
Old 01-09-2021, 05:59 PM
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Would Dutch noble weddings/funerals attract the similar attention as to those in the UK/Spain?
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  #45  
Old 01-09-2021, 07:59 PM
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Do you have to have Dutch nationality to be registered in the nobility of the Netherlands? If they don't have the Dutch nationality (because almost 2 centuries ago their family became Belgian), they are not allowed to vote; so including their titles in this specific form was pointless.
You do not need to have the Dutch nationality but one can only have a legal Dutch title when registered in a Dutch municipal register (or in the municipal register of a country which allows foreign titles to be included).

The current Earl of Clancarty is not registered in any Dutch municipal register so the short conclusion is "there is no Markies van Heusden in the Nobility of the Netherlands." But that is not really true. The family Le Poer Trench is of the (now) "foreign families belonging to the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands". Their title is just not in actual use, not in a municipal register and not in a passport. When Nicholas le Poer Trench wants to register himself as a resident of Amsterdam, he can be registered with his Dutch title as - in turn - the municipality will not register his British titles.

The Hoge Raad van Adel has as Markgraaf / Marquis in the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands:

Arconati-Visconti
1816 - confirmation of the Milanese title Marchese di Busto Garolfo (1664) into the Nobility of Brabant by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

Du Chasteler
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Marquis Du Chasteler (1725) into the Nobility of Henegouwen (Hainaut) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

Desandrouin
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Marquis Desandrouin (1733) into the Nobility of Namen (Namur) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

d'Ennetières
1816 - confirmation and recognition of the Spanish-Netherlands' title Marquis des Mottes (1680) into the Nobility of Brabant by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

de Harchies
1816 - confirmation of the French title Marquis de Vlamertinghe (1770) into the Nobility of West-Vlaanderen (Flandre-Occidentale) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

de Maillen
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Marquis de Maillen (1789) into the Nobility of Namen (Namur) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

de Merode
1816 - confirmation of the Spanish-Netherlands' title Markies (Marquis) van Westerloo (1638) into the Nobility of Limburg (Limbourg) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

Du Mont
1816 - confirmation and recognition of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Marquis Du Mont de Gages (1768) into the Nobility of Henegouwen (Hainaut) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

Van der Noot
1816 - confirmation of existing Austrian-Netherlands' Nobility and creation into the Nobility of Brabant with the title Markies (Marquis) Van Assche (1816) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

de Radiguès
1816 - confirmation of the French title Marquis de Radiguès Saint-Guédal de Chennevière (1572) into the Nobility of Luik (Liège) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

Rodriguez d'Evora y Vega
1816 - confirmation and recognition of the Spanish-Netherlands' title Markies (Marquis) van Rode (1682) into the Nobility of Oost-Vlaanderen (Flandre-Orientale) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

de Trazegnies
1816 - confirmation of the Spanish-Netherlands' title Marquis deTrazegnies (1614) into the Nobility of Henegouwen (Hainaut) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

le Poer Trench
1816 - elevation of the British Ambassador Richard le Poer Trench, 2nd Earl of Clancarty, into the Nobility of Brabant with the title Markies (Marquis) van Heusden (1815) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

de La Valette-Chabriol
1823 - incorporation of the French title Marquis de La Valette-Chabriol (1773) into the Nobility of Oost-Vlaanderen (Flandre-Orientale) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

Van de Woestyne
1816 - confirmation of the French title Marquis de Becelaere (1705) into the Nobility of West-Vlaanderen (Flandre-Occidentale) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

d'Yve
1822 - existing title of Burggraaf (Vicomte) d'Yve in the Nobility of Brabant was elevated with the title Markies (Marquis) d'Yve de Bavay by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg

The title Markies (Marquis) d'Auxy is scrapped. The title Graaf (Comte) d'Auxy continued. After the Belgian secession, the first King of the Belgians re-created the title Marquis d'Auxy in the Belgian Nobility.

The title Markies van Hoensbroeck is scrapped. The title Graaf van Hoensbroeck continued.
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  #46  
Old 01-09-2021, 09:09 PM
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You do not need to have the Dutch nationality but one can only have a legal Dutch title when registered in a Dutch municipal register (or in the municipal register of a country which allows foreign titles to be included).
Yes, so there are indeed foreigners with a Dutch noble title...

However, my post was about a registration for Dutch nationals living abroad registering to vote for the Dutch parliamentary elections. Do you agree that it is completely useless to include title like 'markies', 'markiezin' and 'hertog' and 'hertogin', in a Dutch voter registration form that only Dutch nationals are supposed to fill in? Given that foreigners are not eligible to participate in Dutch national elections...

Personally, I'd say they could easily skip that step as it shouldn't be too hard to figure out their titles when you already ask for their names and BSN. So, why include titles and predicates at all in voter registration and even more, why make a special provision for non-existing people?

I wonder who decided to include it and why, was it someone just having fun trying to see whether s/he could get away with it? Was it someone with a title who wanted it acknowledged? Was it a field in some kind of database that they decided to replicate in this form without thinking through which titles to include?
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  #47  
Old 01-10-2021, 06:29 AM
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The following princes and dukes belong to the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands:

de Beaufort-Spontin
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Duc de Beaufort (1782) into the Nobility of Namen (Namur) with the title Duc de Beaufort and Marquis de Spontin plus the prefix Serene Highness for the head of the family. The others are Comte de Beaufort-Spontin. By Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg.

de Bourbon de Parme
1996 - incorporation of members of the French-Spanish royal family (1748) into the Nobility of the Netherlands with the prefix Royal Highness by Letters Patent of Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands

de Ligne
1816 - confirmation of the Holy Roman Empire's title Prince de Ligne (1601) into the Nobility of Brabant by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg. The title Prince de Ligne is for all male agnates.

de Looz-Corswarem
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Hertog van Loon (Duc de Looz) (1734) into the Nobility of Brabant by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg. The title Duc de Looz-Corswarem is for the head of the family. The others are Prince de Looz-Corswarem.

de Méan
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Prince de Méan (1792) for François de Méan de Beaurieux, Prince-Bishop of Liège, into the Nobility of Luik (Liège) by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg.

de Merode
1827 - confirmation of the Holy Roman Empire's title Prins (Prince) van Everberghe (1759) into the Nobility of Brabant by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg.

de Riquet de Caraman
1817 - elevation as Prins (Prince) van Chimay ad personam
1823 - the title has become hereditary for the head of the family, the others are Graaf (Comte) van Chimay with the right to use the heraldic crown of a Prince in their Arms. By Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg.

d'Ursel
1816 - confirmation of the Austrian-Netherlands' title Hertog van Ursel (1716) into the Nobility of Antwerpen by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg. The title Hertog (Duc) d'Ursel is for the head, the others are Graaf (Comte) d'Ursel.

Wellesley
1816 - elevation of Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, into the Nobility of Brabant with the title Prins (Prince) van Waterloo (1815) and the prefix Serene Highness by Letters Patent of King Willem I of the Netherlands, Grand-Duke of Luxembourg. The head of the family is Prins van Waterloo. The others have the predicate Jonkheer / Jonkvrouw Wellesley.
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  #48  
Old 01-10-2021, 06:37 AM
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Was there any discontent about the Bourbon Parma's being incorporated into the Dutch nobility?
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  #49  
Old 01-10-2021, 06:53 AM
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Was there any discontent about the Bourbon Parma's being incorporated into the Dutch nobility?
Yes. Nothing personal but purely from technical legal view. The Nobility Act requires a title from a State "with (having had) a comparable system of Nobility". The dispute was if the Spanish system of Nobility was comparable with the Dutch system of Nobility, yes or no.

On itself there was no any dispute about the four persons being rightful descendants of Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou (King Felipe V of Spain) and of Elisabetta Farnese, Princess of Parma.

The second dispute was the predicate Royal Highness. Should that not be Highness or Serene Highness? The Hoge Raad van Adel agreed with Royal Highness as the family De Bourbon de Parme held a royal rank from start and continues this to present day.
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  #50  
Old 01-10-2021, 07:47 AM
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Was Audrey Hepburn's Mother Member of the Dutch Nobility ?
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  #51  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:15 AM
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I can certainly see why those claims were disputed - and rightfully so, I would say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Nobility Act requires a title from a State "with (having had) a comparable system of Nobility". The dispute was if the Spanish system of Nobility was comparable with the Dutch system of Nobility, yes or no.
If the incorporation was patterned on the Spanish system of nobility then only Carlos, as the eldest son, ought to have been incorporated.

Quote:
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On itself there was no any dispute about the four persons being rightful descendants of Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou (King Felipe V of Spain) and of Elisabetta Farnese, Princess of Parma.

The second dispute was the predicate Royal Highness. Should that not be Highness or Serene Highness? The Hoge Raad van Adel agreed with Royal Highness as the family De Bourbon de Parme held a royal rank from start and continues this to present day.
In Spain, royal rank has never descended indefinitely to all male lines. Being a descendant, even in dynastic male line, from a King of Spain does not (in itself) grant anybody the right to be a Royal Highness (or even Highness or Serene Highness).
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  #52  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:28 AM
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I can certainly see why those claims were disputed - and rightfully so, I would say.



If the incorporation was patterned on the Spanish system of nobility then only Carlos, as the eldest son, ought to have been incorporated.



In Spain, royal rank has never descended indefinitely to all male lines. Being a descendant, even in dynastic male line, from a King of Spain does not (in itself) grant anybody the right to be a Royal Highness (or even Highness or Serene Highness).
The case was "won" by the Arrêté Grand-Ducal of November 5th 1919 with which Félix Marie Vincent of Bourbon-Parma was incorporated into the Luxembourgian Nobility with the surname de Bourbon de Parme, the hereditary title Prince de Bourbon de Parme and the prefix Altesse Royale and subsequently upon him was conferred the title Prince de Luxembourg.

As the Luxembourg and Belgian Nobiliary systems are a spin-off from the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands of 1815, there was no doubt that the family de Bourbon de Parme indeed appears in a "comparable system of Nobility" and holds a royal rank.

The Dutch incorporated the four royals with exact the same surname as in Luxembourg: de Bourbon de Parme, the same title and the same prefix.
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  #53  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:35 AM
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Thanks. So, in the end, their incorporation was on account of being a collateral line of a Luxembourg noble family rather than their Spanish or French royal lineage?
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  #54  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:53 AM
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Was Audrey Hepburn's Mother Member of the Dutch Nobility ?
Yes from the Friesian families Scheltinga van Heemstra / Sixma van Heemstra. In 1814 King Willem I recognized their untitled Nobility with the predicate Jonkheer / Jonkvrouw van Heemstra. In 1826 King Willem I elevated all Van Heemstra to the rank of Baron / Barones.

Aarnout baron van Heemstra, Mayor of Arnhem and Governor of Suriname
x
Elbrig Wilhelmine Henriette barones van Asbeck
=
Ella barones van Heemstra

Ella barones van Heemstra
x
1 - jonkheer Hendrik Gustaaf Adolf Quarles van Ufford
2 - Joseph Victor Anthony Ruston
=
1 - jonkheer Ian Quarles van Ufford
2 - jonkheer Alexander Quarles van Ufford
3 - Audrey Kathleen Ruston ("Audrey Hepburn")
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  #55  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:56 AM
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Thanks. So, in the end, their incorporation was on account of being a collateral line of a Luxembourg noble family rather than their Spanish or French royal lineage?
Yes indeed. The objections were that France and Spain had no "comparable system of Nobility". For Spain their father was just Don Carlos Hugo de Borbón-Parma y Bourbon-Busset. Undoubtedly an enormous Bourbon pedigree but effectively not registered with any royal or noble title anno 1996. The justification indeed was found in Luxembourg.
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  #56  
Old 01-10-2021, 09:06 AM
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Do we know the reasons why they applied for incorporation? There is no shortage of people who are willing to address legal commoners from the Bourbon family as Royal Highnesses. How did they benefit from becoming legal nobility?
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  #57  
Old 01-10-2021, 09:49 AM
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Do we know the reasons why they applied for incorporation? There is no shortage of people who are willing to address legal commoners from the Bourbon family as Royal Highnesses. How did they benefit from becoming legal nobility?
I think it is a desire to be seen as a person with a real and legally protected title. With their title registered in the municipal registers of an EU member state and appearing on their passports, driving license, in notarial acts, whatever.

This registration into the Nobility had a disadvantage as well: the Duke of Parma could not prevent his extramarital son succesfully applying for the title and surname prins de Bourbon de Parme.

Was he not registered into the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands, his son Carlos Klynstra had no any possibility to become prince de Bourbon de Parme because his father legally had no such title. Having said that: I am curious to see the birth certificate of the four children of Princess Irene, all born in Nimeguen:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r_923-2025.jpg
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  #58  
Old 01-10-2021, 10:25 AM
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Would the Bourbon Parma's be regarded as the highest ranking Dutch nobles?
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  #59  
Old 01-10-2021, 10:50 AM
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The Royal Decree of May 15th 1996 described them without any title or prefix, so they had no any title in the Dutch municipal registers.

"

[....]

Have approved and understand:

1.
Carlos Javier Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme and Jaime Bernardo de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, and all their descendants in the male lineage, both male as well female;
Margarita Maria Beatriz de Bourbon de Parme and Maria Carolina Christina de Bourbon de Parme beforementioned, for their persons exclusively;
to incorporate them into the Nobility of the Netherlands with the title of prince and princess and the prefix Royal Highness.

2.
To command that this Decree will not be executed before inscription has been made into the Registry of the Nobility of the Netherlands according legal regulations.

[....]

The Hague, May 15th 1996

B e a t r i x

The Minister of the Interior

H.F. Dijkstal

The Queen has approved the following Arms to be used by the family de Bourbon de Parme: https://www.adelinnederland.nl/wp-co...e-wapen-De.jpg
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  #60  
Old 01-10-2021, 10:57 AM
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Would the Bourbon Parma's be regarded as the highest ranking Dutch nobles?
I think so but I doubt there will be real difference with Wellesley, De Riquet Caraman, De Merode, De Ligne, etc. when they meet each other.
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