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  #181  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Newspaper NRC Handelsblad claims that from 1982 to 2009 that state paid 320.000 Euros (per year) to the head of state (Queen Beatrix at the time) for the maintenance of furniture and art work in the palaces.
One word: IKEA!

Just kidding! But one can easily see, why some Royal Houses prefer a very modern style - It is looking often better and is much, much cheaper.

The old stuff, all the antiquities... One does need a highly skilled and especially paid workforce to keep them in an acceptable condition.
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  #182  
Old 09-09-2019, 10:43 PM
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Dutch press notes that this is pretty bad press for the king; especially the way the prime minister handled it by stating 'nothing wrong, it's just really complicated'. On face value it doesn't seem that complicated: the state took care of restauration of furniture but also paid the royal family for work they did no longer have to do because the state now takes care of it. So, the royal family received 320.000 EUR for 'free' all those years (most likely by accident but still a lot of money to get accidently year after year).
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  #183  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Dutch press notes that this is pretty bad press for the king; especially the way the prime minister handled it by stating 'nothing wrong, it's just really complicated'. On face value it doesn't seem that complicated: the state took care of restauration of furniture but also paid the royal family for work they did no longer have to do because the state now takes care of it. So, the royal family received 320.000 EUR for 'free' all those years (most likely by accident but still a lot of money to get accidently year after year).
Even if true: what can the King do about this? It was an arrangement made with Queen Juliana (!) and since then we have had a modernization of the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House, we have had a Commission Zalm which reviewed the finances, the Budget of the House of the King is established year after year by the State, approved by Parliament, is paid to the Treasurer of the King and is accounted by the Chamber of Audit.

Neither Queen Juliana nor Queen Beatrix nor King Willem-Alexander will know which furniture from the 17th, 18th, 19th C was bought by whom and paid for by which purse.

It is NRC Handelsblad stirring into a pot but even if maybe exactly spoken the Household has received too much: it is well spent: the furbishment in the Dutch palaces is spic-and-span (as it should be).

It is the same hullabaloo as the claim the Oranges have lots of stolen art (stolen by the Nazis from Jews). A commission went through all properties and in the end only one porcelain plate bought on an auction (by Queen Juliana in the 1960's) was "possibly" from Nazi lootings and the King immediately decided to give it to the heirs of the victim.
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  #184  
Old 09-10-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Even if true: what can the King do about this? It was an arrangement made with Queen Juliana (!) and since then we have had a modernization of the Act on the financial statute of the Royal House, we have had a Commission Zalm which reviewed the finances, the Budget of the House of the King is established year after year by the State, approved by Parliament, is paid to the Treasurer of the King and is accounted by the Chamber of Audit.

Neither Queen Juliana nor Queen Beatrix nor King Willem-Alexander will know which furniture from the 17th, 18th, 19th C was bought by whom and paid for by which purse.

It is NRC Handelsblad stirring into a pot but even if maybe exactly spoken the Household has received too much: it is well spent: the furbishment in the Dutch palaces is spic-and-span (as it should be).

It is the same hullabaloo as the claim the Oranges have lots of stolen art (stolen by the Nazis from Jews). A commission went through all properties and in the end only one porcelain plate bought on an auction (by Queen Juliana in the 1960's) was "possibly" from Nazi lootings and the King immediately decided to give it to the heirs of the victim.



What confuses me is that the royal furniture is held as private property under the family foundations, isn't it ? Yet, the state pays for its restoration and upkeep ? The Oranjes always seem to have a way of having the cake and eating it.
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  #185  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
What confuses me is that the royal furniture is held as private property under the family foundations, isn't it ? Yet, the state pays for its restoration and upkeep ? The Oranjes always seem to have a way of having the cake and eating it.
No some furniture was especially designed as a - to say in German- "Gesamtkunstwerk". For an example Empire ameublement for a palace is inseparably part of the palace history. So when the State bought Soestdijk Palace it paid for ameublement especially commissioned for that palace as well.

The Oranges also owned movable properties in palaces in owned by the State, like Het Loo or Huis ten Bosch or Noordeinde. But what are these palaces without the state rooms and the rich interiors? It had the confusing situation of Queen Juliana footing the bills for stuff in palaces owned by the State. And she did not give that much priority to these properties. So the State bought properties from the family to stay together with the palace. Since then the State is also responsible for the upkeep of often high valuable properties.

The family still owns an enormous amount of properties in private or placed in foundations. When you visit Het Loo to see exhibitions you can see cards like "from the Foundation Historic Collections of the House Orange-Nassau" or "by permission of HM The King", etc.

After all, what can the King do with 400 empire style dinner-table chairs, or with 12 man-sized candelabras for a dining room, or with 8 gigantic crystal chandeliers for a gallery? When Queen Juliana and Prince Bermhard died, it seemed it was a hell of a job to classify item by item what belonged to Soestdijk Palace and what belonged to the family.

Note that incredibly rich inventories from former palaces in Belgium and Luxembourg as well other properties like the Stadtholderly Court in Leeuwarden or the Lange Voorhout House were crammed into dépôts, not always under the best circumstances, sadly.
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  #186  
Old 09-10-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
What confuses me is that the royal furniture is held as private property under the family foundations, isn't it ? Yet, the state pays for its restoration and upkeep ? The Oranjes always seem to have a way of having the cake and eating it.
Not that different arrangement than that in Sweden. Much of the furniture and artwork in the Royal palaces are owned either by the King personally or are part of the different family foundations/entails but the care and upkeep of them are probably mostly paid for by the funds that the Court receives yearly.
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  #187  
Old 09-10-2019, 01:07 PM
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On insistence of the dutch government, Dutch Prime minister Rutte will look into the maintenance costs on the dutch palaces
https://www.nu.nl/politiek/5990647/r...derzoeken.html

One member of parliament: it seems that the dutch royal family doesn't bear the burden but only enjoys the gains

google translated

Personally I expect we won't hear much more about it, but the dutch RF is always very savvy with not spending money when they can get away with it, and that might be the reason why the politicians wanf to rule out any double costs
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  #188  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:47 PM
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Prinsjesdag 2019 is mainly about the Government's plans and the Budget 2020. In Chapter 1 of the State Budget ("The King") the following incomes are mentioned:

The King's personal income in 2020:
€ 949.000,-- (appr. US $ 1,050,000.--)

The King's reimbursement for his functional costs in 2020:
€ 4.940.000,-- (appr. US $ 5,462,000.--)

Queen Maxima's personal income in 2020:
€ 377.000,-- (appr. US $ 417,000.--)

Queen Maxima's reimbursement for her functional costs in 2020:
€ 643.000,-- (appr. US $ 711,000.--)

Princess Beatrix' personal income in 2020:
€ 537.000,-- (appr. US $ 594,000.--)

Princess Beatrix' reimbursement for her functional costs in 2020:
€ 600.000,-- (appr. US $ 664,000.--)

The Princess of Orange's personal income in 2021:
€ 282.000,-- (appr. US $ 312,000.--)

The Princess of Orange's reimbursement for her functional costs in 2021:
Yet to be calculated.

The total Budget in Chapter 1 ("The King") in 2020 is € 44.400.000,-- (appr. US $ 49,000,000.--). With all the indirect costs, accounted on other Budgets, the figure is roughly the double.

It is not clear if the Dutch monarchy is "the most expensive". One can also say: the most honest about all direct and indirect costs.
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  #189  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Prinsjesdag 2019 is mainly about the Government's plans and the Budget 2020. In Chapter 1 of the State Budget ("The King") the following incomes are mentioned:

The King's personal income in 2020:
€ 949.000,-- (appr. US $ 1,050,000.--)

The King's reimbursement for his functional costs in 2020:
€ 4.940.000,-- (appr. US $ 5,462,000.--)

Queen Maxima's personal income in 2020:
€ 377.000,-- (appr. US $ 417,000.--)

Queen Maxima's reimbursement for her functional costs in 2020:
€ 643.000,-- (appr. US $ 711,000.--)

Princess Beatrix' personal income in 2020:
€ 537.000,-- (appr. US $ 594,000.--)

Princess Beatrix' reimbursement for her functional costs in 2020:
€ 600.000,-- (appr. US $ 664,000.--)

The Princess of Orange's personal income in 2021:
€ 282.000,-- (appr. US $ 312,000.--)

The Princess of Orange's reimbursement for her functional costs in 2021:
Yet to be calculated.

The total Budget in Chapter 1 ("The King") in 2020 is € 44.400.000,-- (appr. US $ 49,000,000.--). With all the indirect costs, accounted on other Budgets, the figure is roughly the double.

It is not clear if the Dutch monarchy is "the most expensive". One can also say: the most honest about all direct and indirect costs.
What’s the personal income for?
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  #190  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:08 PM
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For whatever it is that they decide to spend it on. It is their 'salary'.
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  #191  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:09 PM
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For whatever it is that they decide to spend it on. It is their 'salary'.
Doesn’t seem right to me. They get taxpayer money and then their own personal salary. Sorry but I have to side eye that.
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  #192  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:22 PM
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Bar Liechtenstein and Monaco I can’t think of another royal family in Europe that don’t get a personal allowance of some kind. The only difference is the Dutch are so open about it.
The reason is clear, every royal needs a degree of financial independence from the state or should we know how much the Ling and Queen spend on wine for a Friday night movie night at home or how much the King spends on ties etc or school aupplies for tje girls? Clearly they need an element of private income to meet personal costs esp as in Netherlands I think i’m right in saying the soveriegn and heir are banned from every holding a real job so have no way of otherwise having income.
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  #193  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
Doesn’t seem right to me. They get taxpayer money and then their own personal salary. Sorry but I have to side eye that.
The marine, the judge, the university professor, the air traffic controller, the minister, the civil servant, they get their salary from tax payer money too. Money does not grow on magical trees. No difference with the three (soon four) members of the Royal House who - as only Dutch citizens- are denied to earn their own living because it is seen as "undesirable" when the present or the future King is in a dependant or commercial relationship to others.

Princess Beatrix is no present or future King, but her income is a pension as from her 18th until her 75th she was in said position. The reimbursement of her "functional costs" is quite generous but the State finds that Princess Beatrix must be able to maintain and execute "the royal dignity" as former head of state of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. For an example by providing her a mansion in The Hague to serve as her official pied-à-terre with all facilitary assistance from adjacent Noordeinde Palace.

The State is of the opinion that Princess Beatrix (and before her Princess Juliana) should not pay this from the private wealth: comparable with republics providing for former predidents. See France where M. François Hollande, M. Nicholas Sarkozy, M. Jacques Chirac and M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing still get a very pesidential funding, treatment and assistance.
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  #194  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:39 PM
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Am I right in thinking that the Dutch royal Family are considered sort of public servants / civil servants by the state / constitution and as such are paid such salary? In that case, I think the personal income element is justified especially for the King (and to a certain extent the Queen). the king is King 24/7 and not just 9-5 weekdays!

My only query would be income for the Princess of Orange who is a youngster and should be provided for by her parents - then again if it's what the constitution says, I can't argue with that!
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  #195  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:09 PM
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Am I right in thinking that the Dutch royal Family are considered sort of public servants / civil servants by the state / constitution and as such are paid such salary? In that case, I think the personal income element is justified especially for the King (and to a certain extent the Queen). the king is King 24/7 and not just 9-5 weekdays!

My only query would be income for the Princess of Orange who is a youngster and shoudl be provided for by her parents - then again if it's what the constitution says, I can't argue with that!
Yes, they are treated like public servants. Even more: the King's salary is calculated from the highest public servant: the Vice-President of the Council of State. (The King is the formal President of said Council).

The pay rises of the royals are coupled to the pay rises of civil servants. Their pay rise in 2020 is 2,5%.That is the same pay rise for a clerk on a ministerial Department or for a forester in the State Forests Agency, to name some examples.
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  #196  
Old 09-17-2019, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post

The State is of the opinion that Princess Beatrix (and before her Princess Juliana) should not pay this from the private wealth: comparable with republics providing for former predidents. See France where M. François Hollande, M. Nicholas Sarkozy, M. Jacques Chirac and M. Valéry Giscard d'Estaing still get a very pesidential funding, treatment and assistance.

But why does she then have to live in a private-owned Castle whilst her mother in the same postion lived in a state-owned Castle?
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  #197  
Old 09-17-2019, 05:47 PM
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But why does she then have to live in a private-owned Castle whilst her mother in the same postion lived in a state-owned Castle?
It was an arrangement made when the State purchased Soestdijk Palace from the couple, that Princess Juliana and Prince Bernhard could remain there for lifetime (and for free). That was thought as "hoffelijk" (courteous) and prudent.

In the 1970's there was a big change in the financial systematic of the Royal House. In return for designating Het Loo as a museum and the purchase of Soestdijk, the State promised to offer three proper royal residences to the King. In fact this is an extension of the arrangement made with King Willem I when he nogotiated about the return of confiscated properties in the Napoleontic period: no, the State could keep these Orange-Nassau properties but in return had to provide the King appropriate housing indeed, befitting the royal status and dignity.

Clever guys, these Oranges.
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  #198  
Old 09-17-2019, 05:51 PM
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I just think it’s weird they live a life full of luxury and then add on get money too besides taxpayers money. Secondly The Queen uses the Sovereign grant to pay for households so does that personal income of the Dutch do the same?
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  #199  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Kitty1224 View Post
I just think it’s weird they live a life full of luxury and then add on get money too besides taxpayers money. Secondly The Queen uses the Sovereign grant to pay for households so does that personal income of the Dutch do the same?
The Queen uses her part of the functional costs for an example for her garderobe, her beautician, but also to reimburse the costs her Hofdames (Ladies-in-Waiting) make when they have an engagement on behalf of, or with, the Queen. The Act Financial Statute Royal House states that functional costs are paid for by law. (Like no any Dutchman, neither a hospital doctor nor a dustbin-man, has to pay for functional costs like an uniform, a service car, safety shoes or a mobile phone.)
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  #200  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:55 PM
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I think the Dutch system is pretty transparent. I think the Ditch are pretty practical in their thinking- the Prime Minister gets a salary for him personally and the costs of running his office and official functions are met by public funds likewise the Sovereign gets a personal allowance for their personal income to live and their official costs and expenses are met by public funds as its a public role and public duties.

It overlooks the way some monarchies still use sytems that are pretty historical and almost aentimental in their outlook.
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