The Duke & Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 4: April-June 2021

[xenobia]

Originally Posted by _Heather_

Honestly, it's a Harry and Meghan News and Events Thread but that doesn't mean that it's only a Pro-Harry and Meghan Thread. It exists for discussion of all things Harry and Meghan and Co., not only for fawning praise and adulation. Harry and Meghan have absolutely played their part in the fracturing of this family and to think otherwise is, at best, naive. They're not a totally blameless and innocent party here.

I usually don't write much in this thread, and I only catch up with it occasionally. Why? Well, besides lack of time, I really don't enjoy the H&M-bashing. Pro-Harry and Meghan? I challenge people to find one post among the last 2-300 posts that is pro, not con. This thread is post after post about bashing H&M.

I'm not saying that I agree with everything that they have done, and especially not with how it's been handled. Not at all. But I do think that there's two sides - or more - to this story. I don't think that Meghan is the calculating mean woman that some posters seems to think she is. And I don't think that the Charles, William and the other side of the family is white as snow and has done everything right.

I come from a family where the importance of mental health and racism has been brutally highlighted the last couple of years. I've lost a niece and a nephew (not from the same family) to suicide. My nice was also biracial, and even though that wasn't a main reason why we lost her, it certainly didn't make life easier for her. So when someone says that they have mental health problems, I take that seriously. I cut them some extra slack. I do what I can to help if it's a friend.

Harry and Meghan aren't without guilt. I'm not on their side. I'm not on any side at all in this story, because I don't know enough about what has happened. And I dare to say that neither one of us do. We don't know these people. But I'm definitely on the side where I take mental health issues seriously.

I'll go back to reading other threads now. It's not good for my own mental health to read so much negativity and anger that's acumulating in this thread. I just wanted to speak up, because I don't think that I'm the only one.

[_Heather_]

Originally Posted by xenobia

I usually don't write much in this thread, and I only catch up with it occasionally. Why? Well, besides lack of time, I really don't enjoy the H&M-bashing. Pro-Harry and Meghan? I challenge people to find one post among the last 2-300 posts that is pro, not con. This thread is post after post about bashing H&M.

If it's taxing to one's own mental health to be involved or even read a thread then certainly I think that person should stick to other threads. I myself have walked away from the forums and even just the Harry and Meghan section at times when it all just became too much. This place should be enjoyable but when it's not, when it adds extra stress rather than just being a place to visit and converse in your spare time, then it's not healthy. I've done that myself so I'd venture to say that you've made a healthy choice.

That said, there's loads of posts that would fit the bolded criteria. You need only read back through the pages and you'll see them quite clearly. One thing that's always been true, especially so it seems on the Harry and Meghan topics but really anywhere on the forums, is that there's always a camp of unreservedly pro defenders no matter who the topic is. There will always been fans that couldn't be swayed no matter what the person in question did or what evidence stacked up against them, there will always be haters who believe that the person in question could quite simply never get anything right no matter what it is, and there will always be those in the middle who are trying to be fair in the fact that no one is perfect but that some choices are better than others. It's pretty obvious who is who when one has been here more than a millisecond and I'd bet my last cup of coffee that those who have been here for a while could list for you many of the posters who fall in each of the three camps I just outlined. I won't go back and collect the pro-Harry and Meghan posts for you, you're perfectly capable of reading back through and seeing them for yourself and that's exactly the type of thing the mods frown on here and I'm 100% positive the post would be removed. So I'll simply say that there's a lot of very, very pro-Harry and Meghan posts and for that handful of posters known to be staunch Harry and Meghan supporters, I think you'll find that they're quite unlikely to be swayed no matter what is said, argued, or presented. And that's fine, that's what this forum is. But please don't act like there's no pro-Harry and Meghan on this thread because there absolutely is.

[Queen Ester]

US Royal Watcher US Royal Watcher is online now
Royal Highness

Harry and Meghan have everything they claim they want except a public apology from their groveling family -

Apology for what?

[Claire]

I think that they had a bit of sympathy and understanding in the royal family itself with regard to the frustration of the machinery and limitation the life has. The royals themselves understood that however it is their actions that the I, maybe a number of people and I think the royals have an issue with.
We get that you are hurt and feel victimized, but that doesn't give you the right to go on TV and making accusation and talk a bit of nonsense. I feel that a lot of the interview was prepared and therefore scripted and learnt which means that they contemplated what they were saying and made a deliberate decision. What I am trying to say - it wasn't off the top of their heads in a heated argument. And it is that action that I have an issue with. Yes - deciding after it has aired to run to Oprah to say it wasn't the Queen and Prince Philip only after seeing the media immediately saying it was Prince Philip says a lot as well. The interview was planned to hurt and insult and push the royals again into action - it was a reminder that would always be able to rush to the media, play the race card and dangle their victim status to the world. That is what that was about, it was a power play.
Edward and Wallis didn't have any trump cards, or they would have played them as well.
The thing is if Harry and Meghan are not brought back into the fold, or sufficiently appleased, they will continue to do it again and again.

[Queen Ester]

Originally Posted by Denville

They are not going to cut them off permanently but I think that they will never trust them very far again and for self protection, will limit their interactions with them to very general talk...

Do you think that Charles might reinstate their allowance?

[ACO]

Originally Posted by xenobia

I usually don't write much in this thread, and I only catch up with it occasionally. Why? Well, besides lack of time, I really don't enjoy the H&M-bashing. Pro-Harry and Meghan? I challenge people to find one post among the last 2-300 posts that is pro, not con. This thread is post after post about bashing H&M.

I'm not saying that I agree with everything that they have done, and especially not with how it's been handled. Not at all. But I do think that there's two sides - or more - to this story. I don't think that Meghan is the calculating mean woman that some posters seems to think she is. And I don't think that the Charles, William and the other side of the family is white as snow and has done everything right.

I come from a family where the importance of mental health and racism has been brutally highlighted the last couple of years. I've lost a niece and a nephew (not from the same family) to suicide. My nice was also biracial, and even though that wasn't a main reason why we lost her, it certainly didn't make life easier for her. So when someone says that they have mental health problems, I take that seriously. I cut them some extra slack. I do what I can to help if it's a friend.

Harry and Meghan aren't without guilt. I'm not on their side. I'm not on any side at all in this story, because I don't know enough about what has happened. And I dare to say that neither one of us do. We don't know these people. But I'm definitely on the side where I take mental health issues seriously.

I'll go back to reading other threads now. It's not good for my own mental health to read so much negativity and anger that's acumulating in this thread. I just wanted to speak up, because I don't think that I'm the only one.

Thank you for this post and I agree with a lot of what you have said. I feel like it has to be reminded more than once that we don't know these people. What one claims as "lies" told is basically how you interpreted what was said. And that is everyone's right. None of these people are perfect and they have all caused each other hurt.

The royals aint perfect. Not a one and history has shown just how nasty they can be behind the scenes despite the public personas and adoration people have for them. And yes that includes Harry and Meghan.

[US Royal Watcher]

Originally Posted by Queen Ester

US Royal Watcher US Royal Watcher is online now
Royal Highness


Apology for what?

I'm not saying that the family should publicly apologize but I think Harry and Meghan want the family to apologize for several things, including not correcting the insignificant article that Meghan made Catherine cry, for not allowing Meghan and Harry to represent Britain and the royal family the way Harry and Meghan wanted to, and for not giving Harry and Meghan blank checks for the rest of their lives.

[_Heather_]

Originally Posted by Queen Ester

Do you think that Charles might reinstate their allowance?

No, I don't. While I certainly don't believe that he would ever allow them to be left destitute and on the streets, I also don't believe he's just going to hand over the cash just to appease them and, essentially, ward off what would amount to blackmail. He loves his son and his grandchildren, he'd never allow them to go hungry or be left penniless but I very much think Charles has hit the point that he's not about to fork over money just so they won't run and give another interview. They've done that. It didn't do them a whole lot of favors the first time. If they're seen to run off and give interviews every single time they don't get their way then eventually it'll just become laughable. Particularly in light of the clear lies and half truths presented in the first one. If that continues everyone will be watching to see what kind of hole they dig themselves into each and every time they pull that little stunt. I think Charles is shrewd enough to allow the chips to fall where they may at this point.

[ACO]

Originally Posted by Queen Ester

Do you think that Charles might reinstate their allowance?

They are not working royals. They have paid all their debts. They don't need an allowance as they are making their own money. Quite frankly that is how it should be.

If Charles want to set up a trust for his grandchildren that is something different. But he is no longer responsible for the Sussex financials.

[Curryong]

That ‘insignificant article’ about Meghan making Kate cry turned up in different forms in literally dozens of tabloid articles during Meghan’s time in the UK, as extra fodder for allegations about Meghan’s character and personality.

Harry and Meghan undertook many successful engagements (some before they were even married) two very successful overseas tours and represented the Queen very well. I saw them on their Oceania tour. And I do not believe that either Harry or Meghan asked anyone for blank checks for the rest of their lives.

[US Royal Watcher]

Originally Posted by ACO

Thank you for this post and I agree with a lot of what you have said. I feel like it has to be reminded more than once that we don't know these people. What one claims as "lies" told is basically how you interpreted what was said. And that is everyone's right. None of these people are perfect and they have all caused each other hurt.

The royals aint perfect. Not a one and history has shown just how nasty they can be behind the scenes despite the public personas and adoration people have for them. And yes that includes Harry and Meghan.

I agree with that - and if Harry and Meghan had kept it behind the scenes, I would not feel as negatively as I do towards them. Up until a few days before the interview, I generally supported them.

But Harry, Meghan, and their supporters can't have it both ways. If Meghan and Harry can publicly criticize their family and encourage friends to publicly do so, they shouldn't complain when they are publicly criticized (the royal family has not publicly criticized them). It is interesting to read thoughtful posts from people I don't agree with. Everyone has the right to post their thoughts as long as it is respectful and follow forum rules.

[US Royal Watcher]

Originally Posted by Curryong

Harry and Meghan undertook many successful engagements (some before they were even married) two very successful overseas tours and represented the Queen very well. I saw them on their Oceania tour.

I didn't say they weren't successful. I said they didn't get to do it they wanted to do. At least that is what Finding Freedom alleged.

And I do not believe that either Harry or Meghan asked anyone for blank checks for the rest of their lives.

They didn't say that - that was a bit of hyperbole. I was mocking a middle aged couple who have millions of dollars and live in a huge mansion complaining that his family cut them off financially.

[Hallo girl]

Originally Posted by Curryong

That ‘insignificant article’ about Meghan making Kate cry turned up in different forms in literally dozens of tabloid articles during Meghan’s time in the UK, as extra fodder for allegations about Meghan’s character and personality.

Harry and Meghan undertook many successful engagements (some before they were even married) two very successful overseas tours and represented the Queen very well. I saw them on their Oceania tour. And I do not believe that either Harry or Meghan asked anyone for blank checks for the rest of their lives.

You are correct they carried out some really successful work and had more to offer but they decided it was not what they wanted. They wanted to do something different.
This IMHO where lines/ views become crossed or confused.

[Betsypaige]

Originally Posted by _Heather_

Honestly, it's a Harry and Meghan News and Events Thread but that doesn't mean that it's only a Pro-Harry and Meghan Thread. It exists for discussion of all things Harry and Meghan and Co., not only for fawning praise and adulation. Harry and Meghan have absolutely played their part in the fracturing of this family and to think otherwise is, at best, naive. They're not a totally blameless and innocent party here.

In other news, I can't image for one moment that the BRF will entirely cut Harry out of their lives. It can and does happen in some families and oftentimes for good reason. I have some deeply personal experience in this area and can state with absolute certainty that it rarely happens without a lot of deep thought, reflection, and the feeling that you simply have no other choice. Most people who feel the need to entirely remove a family member from their lives do so with regret and with the feeling that they've done absolutely everything they can do and that there's simply no other way and they know exactly what they're losing, giving up, and risking.

I generally find that it's best not to speculate too deeply on marriages that you are not a party to but, that said, marriages end all the time for any number of reasons. Maybe Harry and Meghan will be blissfully happy and remain married for the rest of their lives. Maybe they won't. Maybe Meghan will live to a ripe old age and pass away peacefully in her bed surrounded by her children and grandchildren. But maybe she won't. Accidents and illnesses happen every day. The BRF is nothing if not pragmatic and prepared with game-plans for every considerable circumstance, no matter how awful and unpleasant those might be. I'm 100% sure that they won't completely cut Harry out of their lives, no matter how they may feel about Meghan, because they love him and they love his children and they know that even if he chooses to distance himself from them, should his marriage ever end or anything should ever happen to Meghan, he'll need them. And they'll want him to know that they're there for him and for his children if the need should ever arise.

I think we forget sometimes that while this is a very public family that we all have an interest in, they are still a very real family with all that that implies and entails. Cutting a family member completely out of your life is an incredibly difficult decision and one that, even if made for the best of reasons, has painful consequences and will never be "the easy way out." Short of something drastic and almost inconceivable coming to light I really can't imagine the BRF ever completely cutting Harry and his children out of their lives or their "family fold." And for the record, trusting them and sharing information with them is an entirely different kettle of fish. I think that ship has sailed. I don't foresee there ever really being deep trust there ever again and I certainly don't think they'll ever trust Harry with sensitive information. I think at this point they're weighing anything they say to him on the scale of whether or not they're okay with it becoming public knowledge. But that's entirely different that removing he and the children from their lives completely.

I agree with pretty much all of this. Just to clarify, I wasn’t suggesting that there are never times when cutting family members off isn’t a good idea, but I don’t think that’s the case here...at ALL.

I hesitate to say there won’t be real trust again, because never is a long time. I’ll stick to saying that it will take a long time to regain that trust, and Harry will have to prove that he’s worthy of that trust. That includes making sure that Meghan understands that her husband’s conversations with his family are off-limits to the media.

[US Royal Watcher]

Originally Posted by Curryong

That ‘insignificant article’ about Meghan making Kate cry turned up in different forms in literally dozens of tabloid articles during Meghan’s time in the UK, as extra fodder for allegations about Meghan’s character and personality.

I don't know whether this particular article was true or not but the royal family often deals with untrue allegations that repeatedly pop up. It's part of the territory and it generally fades over time.

I think negative articles were the result rather than the cause, of the breakdown of the relationship between Meghan and the media. I believe that the relationship soured because the media heard she treated staff badly and her general attitude.

In my opinion, Meghan focused on this article because she doesn't want to believe that any of the criticism she started receiving could have been the result of anything she actually did so she singled out this article as the cause. This is also another passive-aggressive shot at Catherine because Catherine didn't refute it, even though Catherine and the palace rarely dispute any story floating around.

[Curryong]

Yes, but Harry and Meghan didn’t just get up one morning and decide they didn’t want to undertake royal duties any more. It’s what led to their decision that causes debate

Some observers contend they were goaded out of the UK by tabloid persecution of Meghan while others hold directly opposite views and believe that they just wanted to become wealthy early in their marriage and consistently worked towards that.


I just think that much of what has come out has been coloured (tainted if you like) by media coverage and things may have been a lot more nuanced that any of us might countenance.

[Betsypaige]

Originally Posted by RandyDrx

While I'm sure we all want both sides to made up, I don't think it's quite feasible (at least right now). Even if they did forgive each other and H&M got a second chance, what would happen if similar situations arise in the future? What if H&M felt slighted again and decided to give another interview like the last time? What if H&M said other lies on the interview? They already lied about trivial things that can be easily disproven before, what if they lie again and this time it's about something that can't be proven? Should they be forgiven again? How many times should they be forgiven and given second chances? I know they are a family, but even families have their limit.

I have never said that I expected a true reconciliation right away - that’s going to take time. You have to start from somewhere, though - and this was a good start.

We could go back and forth all day with “what if’s”...What if positive steps in these relationships are taken? What if lessons are learned? You’re getting too far ahead of yourself, and you’re only thinking negatively. Charles and his father managed to forge a close relationship despite many issues between them. This idea that Charles especially should throw his hands up and give up just doesn’t make sense to me. Keep in mind that he’s the head of the family now - I’m sure he wants to set a good example for his family.

[Betsypaige]

Originally Posted by _Heather_

No, I don't. While I certainly don't believe that he would ever allow them to be left destitute and on the streets, I also don't believe he's just going to hand over the cash just to appease them and, essentially, ward off what would amount to blackmail. He loves his son and his grandchildren, he'd never allow them to go hungry or be left penniless but I very much think Charles has hit the point that he's not about to fork over money just so they won't run and give another interview. They've done that. It didn't do them a whole lot of favors the first time. If they're seen to run off and give interviews every single time they don't get their way then eventually it'll just become laughable. Particularly in light of the clear lies and half truths presented in the first one. If that continues everyone will be watching to see what kind of hole they dig themselves into each and every time they pull that little stunt. I think Charles is shrewd enough to allow the chips to fall where they may at this point.

Agreed. Also, Charles apparently already closed his checkbook when it comes to providing for his son - who is still in good shape financially. That’s why Harry said what he said on air. I believe H is insecure in general, and that may be why he has been so upset about William getting more attention/“power”. I also think it’s why he was upset about Charles “cutting him off”, equating that to his (H) not being important enough.

This is why I think miscommunication is at the heart of the rift. I don’t ever think Charles and William intended to hurt Harry, and I suspect H thought the interview was his best way to make sure they understood his feelings. It didn’t work when Charles spoke about his parents with Dimbleby, and it didn’t work here. Considering C was in a similar position to H and did make a big mistake, the ramifications of such an interview are something he can speak to. Didn’t Anne and Edward write an Op-Ed in The NY Times disputing what their brother had said?

[US Royal Watcher]

Originally Posted by Curryong

Yes, but Harry and Meghan didn’t just get up one morning and decide they didn’t want to undertake royal duties any more. It’s what led to their decision that causes debate

Some observers contend they were goaded out of the UK by tabloid persecution of Meghan while others hold directly opposite views and believe that they just wanted to become wealthy early in their marriage and consistently worked towards that.


I just think that much of what has come out has been coloured (tainted if you like) by media coverage and things may have been a lot more nuanced that any of us might countenance.

Actually, where we disagree is that the debate is centered around their decision to step back and move away from Britain. I acknowledge that some people on this board felt they should not have left but I don't debate that at all. I didn't like the way they did it but I understood the decision. The media did write unflattering stories, many of which were untrue - others were true but unfair. Royal life was obviously not for them and they had every right to move on.

My criticism and most of the criticism on this thread is due to the decision to publicly criticize his family and hard working palace staff with vague complaints, many of which have been proven to be untrue. I also criticize them for not taking any responsibility for anything - they even blamed palace staff because Harry didn't help Meghan get mental health care!

With respect to the silly little story, I could have respected it if Meghan had simply said that the story wasn't true rather than taking passive aggressive digs at her sister-in-law. Moreover, they didn't bother to refute the story themselves (Harry has done his own media releases - most famously when he released a statement criticizing some online trolls for racism while his father was on an important state visit). They also didn't feel it was important enough to set the record straight in Finding Freedom.

[caethi]

IMHO, Harry and Meghan should focus on their work, period. Goodness knows there are enough people in need all over the world who could benefit from their good works. Even if all of the accusations against members of the BRF and courtiers are true, or mostly true, it should be sorted out with the people who are directly involved--family members, courtiers, whomever. The bottom line for me is that Harry and Meghan took a very cheap shot at the BRF by doing the Oprah interview. If there was/is rampant racism among the courtiers, then confront them, confront their bosses, confront Charles. If Meghan was suicidal, they should have found help. If Harry wanted out even before Meghan, he should have left. H and M were not powerless, but they spin the narrative that they were.