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  #3241  
Old 05-25-2021, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
The al-Fayed family were well-known in the UK long before Dodi and Diana became involved. Mohammed al-Fayed was the owner of Harrods and the owner of Fulham Football Club, as well as the Ritz. He'd been involved in some very controversial business dealings in the 1980s, and he was then involved in a political scandal in which he paid Members of Parliament to ask questions on his behalf. So there was certainly a sense that Diana had got involved with a rather dodgy family, but that was nothing to do with race: it was to do with Dodi's father's financial controversies.
True he was not a good pick. But the truth is that whoever was Dis first public romance there would have been a lot of press interest, in the UK and iwth the paparazzi from outside the UK who were even more aggressive in their tactics... If she'd been seen on holiday with an American businessman, or the Duke of Wherever, no matter where they were from, the press would have been on their tail because they'd been waiting for a year for Diana to be seen publicly with a new man. Even if the man were very dull and respectable, the press would have been all over them for a bit.
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  #3242  
Old 05-25-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Most of us had very high hopes for Meghan's success within the monarchy. Her education, previous humanitarian work and her background in public speaking were all considered positives in her favor. Honestly I truly believed that she would be an outstanding asset to the BRF.
I agree, she had a lot of potential as a working royal. From what it appears, she really was not much of a team player, an certainly was unwilling to accept what being the spouse of the 6th in line to the throne meant, in terms of responsibilities.
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  #3243  
Old 05-25-2021, 12:39 PM
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To be fair, I do think Meghan's anguish was very real. I think a big part of it was self-influcted, though. She had to learn protocol quickly and under the eye of the public. I imagine the stress was greater than she expected. But she had no choice. If she wanted the HIHO thing, she couldn't afford a period of easing herself into her "new" and unbeknownst to the public, temporary role. Then again, I was shocked by her lack of basic manners. I think part of it was deliberate, even. It doesn't take protocol to know that you don't push yourself in front of an old woman, queen or not. Surely she knew that she'd give the impression of, "How long should I wait for this old lady to move? She's so slow." Part of the bad press she received had nothing to do with the media themselves and certainly not with the Firm. I can't imagine HM or Charles rubbing their hands in glee as Meghan rushed to take Harry away from the waiting line and he left the people - well, waiting. Especially when at a few videos, there were clearly worried aides trying to stop Meghan from making missteps. She went her way and then wailed that there was no one to help her when she received the predictable bad feedback. Again, it had nothing to do with the Firm having it for her. It had everything with Meghan demonstrating bad manners at a world stage because she wanted "to hit the ground running".
  #3244  
Old 05-25-2021, 12:49 PM
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What most of us are looking at though is her time spent within the fold of a monarchy. An institution that has existed for over a thousand years. She wasn't a good fit for it. She, perhaps, was so used to being the strong, independent woman of the world that she found it hard to mesh with an institution that thrives on doing things *their* way with protocols, hierarchy, traditions and idiosyncrasies unique unto themselves. She wasn't a good fit for the lifestyle of a working royal and it caused problems for her.
I agree with the general point, except I would say that she caused her own problems - the lifestyle of a working royal didn't cause problems for her. The implication here is that independent women can't function as a working royal, and I don't think that's true. Camilla is certainly her own woman, so is Kate, don't even question Anne, lol. They choose to be with their husbands, knowing that along with privilege comes less freedom and more responsibility. This is what Philip did - he chose the woman he loved over the life he had led in the Navy, over being in control of his situation. Meghan had choices. She could have decided that her own need for freedom and control was more important than being with Harry. She could have made the adjustments as a working Royal, possibly finding a way to modernize the BRF with help from others in the family if they agreed with her takes. Instead, she gave it a half-hearted attempt, except not really - it took less than 18 months (because planning took time) for H and M to flee for North America.
  #3245  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Moran View Post
To be fair, I do think Meghan's anguish was very real. I think a big part of it was self-influcted, though. She had to learn protocol quickly and under the eye of the public. I imagine the stress was greater than she expected. But she had no choice. If she wanted the HIHO thing, she couldn't afford a period of easing herself into her "new" and unbeknownst to the public, temporary role. Then again, I was shocked by her lack of basic manners. I think part of it was deliberate, even. It doesn't take protocol to know that you don't push yourself in front of an old woman, queen or not. Surely she knew that she'd give the impression of, "How long should I wait for this old lady to move? She's so slow." Part of the bad press she received had nothing to do with the media themselves and certainly not with the Firm. I can't imagine HM or Charles rubbing their hands in glee as Meghan rushed to take Harry away from the waiting line and he left the people - well, waiting. Especially when at a few videos, there were clearly worried aides trying to stop Meghan from making missteps. She went her way and then wailed that there was no one to help her when she received the predictable bad feedback. Again, it had nothing to do with the Firm having it for her. It had everything with Meghan demonstrating bad manners at a world stage because she wanted "to hit the ground running".
Perhaps too, Harry really wasn't of much help either. From what we know now, it seems possible that Harry's statement "whatever Meghan wants, Meghan gets" rings true in a few different ways. Was the man so afraid of losing the woman he loves that he'd not even attempt to correct how Meghan saw she wanted to do things when it obviously clashed badly with the way things were done by protocol? Was he really so anxious to please her that whatever she deemed she wanted to do or not do something he stood behind? We saw how quickly Harry issued his own official statement when their relationship first became known.

Perhaps if Harry had been a stronger man and more comfortable in his own skin with his relationship with Meghan, he could have guided her a whole lot better into his world. Now it seems like Harry is lost and floundering in Meghan's world and it's him that is getting a lot of negative feedback for his behavior.
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  #3246  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I agree, she had a lot of potential as a working royal. From what it appears, she really was not much of a team player, an certainly was unwilling to accept what being the spouse of the 6th in line to the throne meant, in terms of responsibilities.
I originally thought it an amazing fit within the royal family. Meghans experience within the industry gave her confidence, she had already been involved with various projects.

The baby shower was a turning point in the UK, she walked into one of the busiest hotels in NY city known for celebrities , where all the paps gather.
There she was big black sunglasses on, looking straight ahead ignoring everybody.

Everything became about her, the photographs for Mayhew and Smartworks were posed photographs of Meghan looking very interested and staring in to the distance. The poor dogs at Mayhew never got a look in. They were like agents photographs.
Wimbledon was a cracker, and there she was surrounded by empty seats but straight across from the tv cameras. A queue of people outside the court with paid tickets not allowed in because she was there.
The ladies final day when she didn't wait to see the winner, because her pal was beaten.
Neither does Meghan have an original idea, the 'surprise ' visit to the school in London, oh wait a minute who did that before her, Michelle Obama.

She is obviously a smart woman in a lot ways, but not so smart if she thought she was going to take over the royal family, she didnt like being told no. When you look at videos the Meghan with the royal family and keeping to the pecking order is not the Meghan who was out on her own or with Harry.
  #3247  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:08 PM
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Harry wasn't going to guide Meghan. Frankly the more he has talked lately, one feels that he knew almost as little as she did about the Monarchy, and didn't really want to stick with the rules anyway. I think that for some reason, he DID cling to Meghan, and when he got her, was desperate to hold onto her.. and was afraid that if he didn't do what she wanted, she'd leave him. So he had to say to the staff "Whatever Meghan wants she gets".. and he didn't dare to correct her if she was getting things wrong. I thought that perhaps he was a little bit embarrased at the first Oprah interview, and didn't totally go along with all the things she said, but now he's coming across as wanting to tell the world that he hates royal life and the RF and is totally hostile to it...
  #3248  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Perhaps too, Harry really wasn't of much help either. From what we know now, it seems possible that Harry's statement "whatever Meghan wants, Meghan gets" rings true in a few different ways. Was the man so afraid of losing the woman he loves that he'd not even attempt to correct how Meghan saw she wanted to do things when it obviously clashed badly with the way things were done by protocol? Was he really so anxious to please her that whatever she deemed she wanted to do or not do something he stood behind? We saw how quickly Harry issued his own official statement when their relationship first became known.

Perhaps if Harry had been a stronger man and more comfortable in his own skin with his relationship with Meghan, he could have guided her a whole lot better into his world. Now it seems like Harry is lost and floundering in Meghan's world and it's him that is getting a lot of negative feedback for his behavior.
That is so true, two prime examples were the Tiara fitting and the Christening, these are both examples where they went ahead and made arrangements then expected others to fit in.
A conversation to check suitable dates that suited all parties but no.
  #3249  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I thought that perhaps he was a little bit embarrased at the first Oprah interview, and didn't totally go along with all the things she said, but now he's coming across as wanting to tell the world that he hates royal life and the RF and is totally hostile to it...


The more he talks, the more hostile he sounds IMO.
  #3250  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:28 PM
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You know, I was one of those who saw a boatload of red flags right from the beginning with Meghan and I received a lot of flack here when I said so and pointed out the things I saw. And looking back, I admit there's a tendency to want to say "yeah, I told you so, I saw all of that coming from a mile away" but the truth is, even though I did see the red flags with her, I totally missed them with him. I chalked the "what Meghan wants, Meghan gets" comment up to a bad day and a stressful time in the run-up to the wedding. I believed that even though we had always known that Harry could be petulant and stubborn, he was just dealing with the emotions that we all might have in that situation on that stage. And even though we knew by Harry's own admission that he was desperate to have a wife and a family and had been devastated when previous girlfriends decided they didn't want the royal life, I still hoped that he had made a wonderful choice and that I was wrong about Meghan and that maybe the red flags I saw were nothing more than nerves about being on the biggest stage on the planet.

Hindsight is 20/20 but looking back, my goodness the red flags that I and so many others missed with Harry is almost mind-blowing.
  #3251  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by UglyAmerican View Post
Wouldn't George become Duke of Cambridge upon William becoming Crown Prince and Duke of Cornwall? Or is that not how this works?
I guess he will, sooner or later, be known as Prince George of Wales, when his father is heir apparent. William will be very likely, already before Charles´ coronation, styled The Prince of Wales. Not just George, his 2 younger siblings also will be known as "of Wales", just as William and Harry were Prince William/Harry of Wales before they got married.
  #3252  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
I especially agree with the bolded part of your statement Osipi. Most of us had very high hopes for Meghan's success within the monarchy. Her education, previous humanitarian work and her background in public speaking were all considered positives in her favor. Honestly I truly believed that she would be an outstanding asset to the BRF. However I am now of the opinion that even with that background, Meghan was not suited to this type life. I do wish that the couple had not opted to "hit the ground running" and had chosen to enter into it slowly which would have permitted Meghan the opportunity to adapt to a new nation, home, marriage and role. We know that they were offered a chance to have a role more similar to the Wessexes when they first married. Meghan could have kept her acting career and done the occasional royal visit/tour. However this was not the couple's choice and unfortunately and painfully we now know that this was not the life for Meghan and Harry.
Yes, had she been willing to go slowly instead of hitting the ground running and listened to the people HM put in place to help her, things might have been different.
  #3253  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by _Heather_ View Post
Hindsight is 20/20 but looking back, my goodness the red flags that I and so many others missed with Harry is almost mind-blowing.
I have to admit that the Harry I saw before Meghan was a man that I thought was truly "of the people" and humble. He would interact beautifully with everyone and Harry getting down to a child's level to meet them eye to eye or to kneel when talking to a veteran in a wheelchair warmed my heart. He seemed so real.

The Harry and Meghan we see now are completely devoid of any kind of humility at all and without that, how can they expect to relate to people anywhere or be the epitome of compassion and kindness? Are they so far wrapped up in themselves and what they want and what they didn't get that they felt they deserved that everything "human" about them has flown out the window?

It's very easy to throw cold, hard cash as a donation but it seems the bigger donation, the more it will stroke their egos as "doing good for the lesser beings" while they sit poolside with tall glasses of iced tea with those cute little paper umbrellas. Oh... and don't forget the suntan lotion. What brand do you use anyways, Harry? Those out there looking for a deep, dark tan this summer need to know. (of course I'm being tongue in cheek but if it was presented to Harry to be a spokesperson for skin products in the sun, I bet he'd jump on it for cash).

One thing I know is that the people Harry and Meghan are presenting themselves to be are more likely to be seen as examples of humanity we do not want to emulate rather than a couple we admire and respect. Humility is the key word describing this couple that is really what is missing and turning them into something to not only snicker at and shake our heads but a couple that are the epitome of how egotistical people come across as a whole.
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  #3254  
Old 05-25-2021, 01:52 PM
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There was absolutely no reason Meghan had to be subjected to such nastiness from the institution and the media. No one should have to endure the vitriol and endless condemnation she suffered just for breathing. Contrary to what has been said about her, Meghan is human. In only one year as a royal, she created a clothing collection to help unemployed women, created a charity cookbook to feed displaced women, called attention to rescue animals, had 3 successful tours, and more.
  #3255  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by SplendaLover View Post
There was absolutely no reason Meghan had to be subjected to such nastiness from the institution and the media. No one should have to endure the vitriol and endless condemnation she suffered just for breathing. Contrary to what has been said about her, Meghan is human. In only one year as a royal, she created a clothing collection to help unemployed women, created a charity cookbook to feed displaced women, called attention to rescue animals, had 3 successful tours, and more.
I can point to a Vanity Fair article called "Wild About Harry" where Meghan claimed she didn't pay attention to the "noise". Obviously she did and reacted to the tabloid stories written expressly for clicks and bore no semblance to the real truth. Yes, she did make mistakes that were glaringly pointed out at every available opportunity by the yellow press but she didn't learn from them. I cannot and will not lay any blame on the "institution" as it was really up to Meghan to adapt and conform to the "Firm" rather than the "Firm" adapt and conform to suit Meghan. Meghan was treated no differently than any other member that married into the "Firm" and even, in my eyes, received better treatment than others at the onset of joining the family.

She did a whole lot of good with the projects you've mentioned and I feel sad thinking of how much more she really could have accomplished and made a difference on the world stage if she didn't become so self absorbed and slighted and unwilling to work as a team player within the institution of the British monarchy. The bottom line is that being royal and working for a monarchy should never, ever be seen as a pathway to stardom and fame and fortune for oneself. You're there to represent something and that something is not ever oneself.

To add one other point. The successes she had as a full time working member of the British royal family was never to be intended as "personal" successes. She was to be a conduit through which the monarchy and its members call attention to areas where they serve the people that need it. Never is it acceptable for a working royal to be seen to do things for personal acclaim and personal stardom and to become the shining iconic superwoman. It defeats the very idea of "to serve".
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  #3256  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SplendaLover View Post
There was absolutely no reason Meghan had to be subjected to such nastiness from the institution and the media. No one should have to endure the vitriol and endless condemnation she suffered just for breathing. Contrary to what has been said about her, Meghan is human. In only one year as a royal, she created a clothing collection to help unemployed women, created a charity cookbook to feed displaced women, called attention to rescue animals, had 3 successful tours, and more.

Actually all of the accomplishments that you pointed out (bolded) were largely praised on this site, in the press and a good portion of social media. (Yes I'm aware that there were elements of social media that never gave her positive coverage.)


I also agree in part that "There was absolutely no reason Meghan had to be subjected to such nastiness from the institution and the media. No one should have to endure the vitriol and endless condemnation she suffered just for breathing."


Sadly this is an issue that many women who marry into royal families have had to endure for decades especially after the Internet debuted. Among the BRF-Camilla, Catherine, Sophie, Anne, Beatrice and Eugenie have all dealt with nastiness and vitriol from the press and social media for years and long before Meghan was associated with Prince Harry. She actually received far more positive coverage initially than most of the ladies mentioned above. Other women in foreign royal houses: Mary, Maxima, Mathilde, Letizia, Mette-Marit etc...have also endured similar concerns from their native press and social media when it debuted.



I take exception to the comment regarding the "institution" as that also involves not only the British Monarchy but the British Foreign Office of which Meghan was an official representative. Meghan was provided with ample support and had a hand picked team to help her assimilate into her new role and life. That included ex-pats who understood what it was like to be new arrivals to the UK and who could help her adjust to a very different world. She had truly the best qualified individuals to help her IMHO. I'm sorry that she couldn't realize that they were there to assist her in her new life.
  #3257  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SplendaLover View Post
There was absolutely no reason Meghan had to be subjected to such nastiness from the institution and the media. No one should have to endure the vitriol and endless condemnation she suffered just for breathing. Contrary to what has been said about her, Meghan is human. In only one year as a royal, she created a clothing collection to help unemployed women, created a charity cookbook to feed displaced women, called attention to rescue animals, had 3 successful tours, and more.
I knew Meghan before she became involved with Harry. My first reaction was "Prince Harry's dating Rachel from Suits, wow never would have picked her out of potential actress girlfriends". And I liked her and had even briefly checked out The Tig. I thought she was going to be a great asset and as an older, professional woman who had survived in LA, surely she'd have done thorough research and soul searching to see if this could be her life forever. And she claimed in the engagement interview that she had done that.

Until they made that half cocked announcement in Jan 2020 I was on their side and an apologist for all the mistakes they seemed to be making. I flat out thought all of the petty rumours and headlines were made up or exaggerated (until they themselves confirmed most of them). I defended the baby shower and Wimbledon etc. I was on here an hour before the announcement was posted, defending them going to Canada House.

It took me a while to fall off the bandwagon but it really started when I realised they hadn't even agreed the exit before the posted it and were hoping to blackmail HM into it. And after that I started re-examining everything.

I still like "Together" very much. I thought until very recently that they actually wanted to help people but were going about it very badly.

Meghan wasn't subjected to any more nastiness than Kate (check out early threads about her and her family even here, they're pretty brutal) and contrary to what Harry is saying now Kate was the one who came close to replicating being run off the road by paparazzi and had her phone hacked 155 times. Chelsy was treated pretty terribly too and tarnished for her father's ties to Mugabe. Bea and Eugenie had even "respectable" media calling them ugly step sisters, hangers on, tarring them with their parents scandals since they were about 12.

Oprah even had to make up and doctor headlines because there weren't enough terrible ones to use.

There's no denying it's extremely tough to be a royal girlfriend and I would never want it. But a lot of the criticism comes from things they themselves actually did, said or are still doing and saying, not because she's biracial or American.
  #3258  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I have to admit that the Harry I saw before Meghan was a man that I thought was truly "of the people" and humble. He would interact beautifully with everyone and Harry getting down to a child's level to meet them eye to eye or to kneel when talking to a veteran in a wheelchair warmed my heart. He seemed so real.

The Harry and Meghan we see now are completely devoid of any kind of humility at all and without that, how can they expect to relate to people anywhere or be the epitome of compassion and kindness? Are they so far wrapped up in themselves and what they want and what they didn't get that they felt they deserved that everything "human" about them has flown out the window?

It's very easy to throw cold, hard cash as a donation but it seems the bigger donation, the more it will stroke their egos as "doing good for the lesser beings" while they sit poolside with tall glasses of iced tea with those cute little paper umbrellas. Oh... and don't forget the suntan lotion. What brand do you use anyways, Harry? Those out there looking for a deep, dark tan this summer need to know. (of course I'm being tongue in cheek but if it was presented to Harry to be a spokesperson for skin products in the sun, I bet he'd jump on it for cash).

One thing I know is that the people Harry and Meghan are presenting themselves to be are more likely to be seen as examples of humanity we do not want to emulate rather than a couple we admire and respect. Humility is the key word describing this couple that is really what is missing and turning them into something to not only snicker at and shake our heads but a couple that are the epitome of how egotistical people come across as a whole.
I view Harry and Meghan as two people who are surprised by the behavior of their fathers. The disappointment and betrayal you've expressed about them is exactly how they feel about the men they've looked to for guidance throughout their lives. Harry and Meghan are not bad people who do not care about the plight of others. Both Sussexes have a history of advocating for causes throughout their lives. The couple will continue their philanthropic efforts because it's who they are. I'm excited to see what Archewell will do next.
  #3259  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by SplendaLover View Post
I view Harry and Meghan as two people who are surprised by the behavior of their fathers. The disappointment and betrayal you've expressed about them is exactly how they feel about the men they've looked to for guidance throughout their lives. Harry and Meghan are not bad people who do not care about the plight of others. Both Sussexes have a history of advocating for causes throughout their lives. The couple will continue their philanthropic efforts because it's who they are. I'm excited to see what Archewell will do next.
Wait, let me get this straight. Are you really laying every problematic thing they've said and done at the doorsteps of their fathers? Are you really trying to say that their perceptions of the behaviors of their fathers are responsible for the little manifesto mess they published in January 2020 and for all of the drama and hysterics and insincerity along with the complete tone-deafness and lack of self-awareness from these two? Really?
  #3260  
Old 05-25-2021, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by SplendaLover View Post
I view Harry and Meghan as two people who are surprised by the behavior of their fathers. The disappointment and betrayal you've expressed about them is exactly how they feel about the men they've looked to for guidance throughout their lives. Harry and Meghan are not bad people who do not care about the plight of others. Both Sussexes have a history of advocating for causes throughout their lives. The couple will continue their philanthropic efforts because it's who they are. I'm excited to see what Archewell will do next.
The way the Sussexes are presenting themselves at this time is going to really squash their reputation as humanitarians and Archewell is going to suffer for it. When Harry actively states to millions of people how much he resented having to meet and greet and interact with the people, it's not a good look for someone that purports to "care". Their self serving whines on what's wrong with everybody else that "let them down" isn't a good look for organizations and charities that will wonder if the Sussexes will turn against them if they become involved with them.

Basically, right now, they're doing Archewell more harm than good. I personally cannot and will not support anything they back because I cannot get the feeling that they're there to serve but rather there to make a profit.
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