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  #861  
Old 10-27-2020, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
They're not going to live in Africa or Canada, or anywhere but where they are now. Not Frogmore either.
And the point about celebrities was pointing out that meghan didn't know many A list celebs prior to her marriage.. even if she had made a few freinds in the top list... but marriage to Harry has given her a leg up to meet these people.. and it seems that she's now veyr happy in the US as a Duchess who has status to meet famous journalists actors etc.
"Wherever you go, there you are." fits this. Wherever they're in residence is where they are in any given moment. Their "main" residence may be in California but they're not tied to it with chains and cement blocks.

To me, celebrities is a just another "classification" such as "royalty" and "scientists" and "educators" and "front line workers". In the end, who they associate with on a private level fall into a classification of "friends". As individuals. Not a posse or a gang or a organization with a name to it or anything. To assume that aiming for a certain "classification" as "friends" in their private life, that suggests that the person is *using* people for their own ends and means without thought to anything else. To label this behavior as a ways and means of succeeding professionally, the best of people do it and its called "diplomacy" and "networking" and this is something HM, The Queen excels at.

I just personally don't see it as reason to sneer and look down my nose at Harry and Meghan as if they've been rolling around in a compost heap too long. Only they really know their intentions.
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  #862  
Old 10-27-2020, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
GREAT conversation. I have been so impressed with Harry (and Meghan) in these conversations. They have been substantive, thoughtful and it's clear they know their stuff. Harry especially is shining in these sit-downs. The growth in Harry over the past decade has been so great to follow.

And sigh, not shocked that people are clutching their pearls over him talking about race and bias. But he is right to name both his own prior complicity and how the onus can't just be on Black people or POC to "educate" others. This is a concept that many struggle to understand.

Really so pleased with the work they are doing and the trajectory they are setting up.



I found Mr Hutchinson a likeable & modest man with some insightful points to make about working class communities in Britain.

From approx 18 minutes in:

“There’s a big class thing in here too”

“It’s not only black people who are struggling….There are white people who are struggling who are in impoverished areas along with black people, who don’t get the opportunities & the chances that others might get”.

And the duke’s reply to this point? He doesn’t respond at all. He ignores it completely. Why?

Conceivably he doesn’t understand it. Perhaps talk around the lack of opportunities for white working class people makes him feel uncomfortable. Not exactly surprising for a member of the royal family. As likely as not he deliberately chooses to ignore it because it doesn’t fit his agenda. Maybe he obfuscates because in his eyes Mr Hutchinson has gone off script. Probably it’s a mix of all four.

The contrast between Mr Hutchinson & the duke is stark. Mr Hutchinson is clearly a sincere & thoughtful man. The comparison does not flatter the duke.
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  #863  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post


I found Mr Hutchinson a likeable & modest man with some insightful points to make about working class communities in Britain.

From approx 18 minutes in:

“There’s a big class thing in here too”

“It’s not only black people who are struggling….There are white people who are struggling who are in impoverished areas along with black people, who don’t get the opportunities & the chances that others might get”.

And the duke’s reply to this point? He doesn’t respond at all. He ignores it completely. Why?


Conceivably he doesn’t understand it. Perhaps talk around the lack of opportunities for white working class people makes him feel uncomfortable. Not exactly surprising for a member of the royal family. As likely as not he deliberately chooses to ignore it because it doesn’t fit his agenda. Maybe he obfuscates because in his eyes Mr Hutchinson has gone off script. Probably it’s a mix of all four.

The contrast between Mr Hutchinson & the duke is stark. Mr Hutchinson is clearly a sincere & thoughtful man. The comparison does not flatter the duke.
That's a really interesting observation. He just keeps going on about his favorite topic over 'bias' - while mr Hutchinson is explaining to him, it is a much broader problem and he isn't able or willing to hear it... or engage with that thought. Harry seems to be able to only speak from his own perspective, which is mainly Meghan's perspective (just before he specifically explains how he never learned about such issues and only understood it because of his wife) - who I'm afraid might have had the tendency to interpret most criticism as 'racism' or at least 'unconscious bias'; while some if it surely was but others clearly not.
  #864  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
That's a really interesting observation. He just keeps going on about his favorite topic over 'bias' - while mr Hutchinson is explaining to him, it is a much broader problem and he isn't able or willing to hear it... or engage with that thought. Harry seems to be able to only speak from his own perspective, which is mainly Meghan's perspective (just before he specifically explains how he never learned about such issues and only understood it because of his wife) - who I'm afraid might have had the tendency to interpret most criticism as 'racism' or at least 'unconscious bias'; while some if it surely was but others clearly not.
He doesn't know how to talk about anything else because he doesn't know how to cope with going off script. He doesn't have that type of intelligence and is intellectually unsuited to talking about this stuff anyway...and he really shouldn't. I'm not saying the rest of them are geniuses (clearly some are anything but).
  #865  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
while mr Hutchinson is explaining to him, it is a much broader problem and he isn't able or willing to hear it... or engage with that thought.
It's not surprising.

The duke does not appear to have anything useful to say about British society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poppy7 View Post
He doesn't know how to talk about anything else because he doesn't know how to cope with going off script. He doesn't have that type of intelligence and is intellectually unsuited to talking about this stuff anyway...and he really shouldn't. I'm not saying the rest of them are geniuses (clearly some are anything but).
Well yes indeed he shouldn't. The irony of a member of the royal family attempting to be a social commentator. As if 2020 wasn't weird enough already.
  #866  
Old 10-27-2020, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
It's not surprising.

The duke does not appear to have anything useful to say about British society.
Which points out something relevant here. When someone is in a position to speak out about something, obvious problems with getting a concrete idea across or not being able to really say anything useful at all tells me that the person that is speaking is there because of who they are rather than that they have real information to impart.

Harry speaking of British society as a whole ranks right up there with him speaking on nuclear physics at the Nobel Physics Award. It does bring to my mind a fact that is very probable. Over the years when Harry has given a speech anywhere, most likely he's had advisers that did a lot of the preparation for those speeches. Put Harry in front of a camera to speak what is in his head doesn't work well for him at all.
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  #867  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:04 PM
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That can be said of the vast majority of the royals, most of whom have people who write their speeches. That includes the younger ones.

However, stating that Harry has nothing useful to say about British society is painting things with a very broad brush. In the past Harry has spoken from the heart about mental health issues, the ability of sport to lessen these traumas among disadvantaged youth and veterans, and about very sick children.

He for instance has been involved with WellChild and maimed veterans for well over a decade and still keeps in touch. It would be impossible not to get some knowledge of issues in British society from work done behind the scenes with these organisations.

So let's not throw the baby away with the bath water here and state that Harry knows nothing about British society in spite of serving in the British army for ten years among all classes and conditions of British service people of all colours, nor in work he's been involved with since he was a teenager with all sorts of organisations, just because he now lives in California.
  #868  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post

However, stating that Harry has nothing useful to say about British society is painting things with a very broad brush. In the past Harry has spoken from the heart about mental health issues, the ability of sport to lessen these traumas among disadvantaged youth and veterans, and about very sick children.

He for instance has been involved with WellChild and maimed veterans for well over a decade and still keeps in touch. It would be impossible not to get some knowledge of issues in British society from work done behind the scenes with these organisations.

So let's not throw the baby away with the bath water here and state that Harry knows nothing about British society in spite of serving in the British army for ten years among all classes and conditions of British service people of all colours, nor in work he's been involved with since he was a teenager with all sorts of organisations, just because he now lives in California.
The comment about British society is clearly about this latest broadcast in which it is painfully obvious that he either doesn't understand, or doesn't want to talk about, the point raised by Mr Hutchinson.

His lack of engagement on this topic speaks volumes about his superficiality.

He was an officer because of where he went to school. If he'd gone to the local comp he'd have been a squaddie. I wouldn't exaggerate his understanding of the lives of working class people because of his army service.
  #869  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:20 PM
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You've said things much better than I could have, Curryong. I'll *never* discredit Harry's ability to comment on things he's been personally involved with over the years as he *knows* what he's talking about and it shows.

"Jumping on the bandwagon" though and speaking is not Harry's forte. As in talking about US politics or making a speech on which motor oil is best for race cars or even nuclear physics. He should just stick to what he excels at and knows inside out and backwards.
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  #870  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:30 PM
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I agree that I would hope the members of the royal family would know a bit what is going on in British society (ideally also about all the other realms the queen is head of state of but that's probably too much to ask). However, he himself admitted that 'unconscious bias, having the upbringing and education that I had, I had no idea what is was, no idea it existed', shows that somehow he didn't know the British society as well but it seems he now has seen the light, thanks to his wife, and is starting to lecture everybody on it - and in doing so, missing other real issues presented to him: such as the point that it's not just about race, it is also very much about class (and SES) - he hasn't seen the light on that one.

In any case, as someone who said goodbye to his role as royal representative, I don't think he should take it upon himself to start commenting or lecturing on what's wrong and how people should see the world like he does now. Had he remained within the firm, he could have highlighted organisations that were making a difference in this area as part of his royal role; now it is just completely out of place.
  #871  
Old 10-27-2020, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post
The comment about British society is clearly about this latest broadcast in which it is painfully obvious that he either doesn't understand, or doesn't want to talk about, the point raised by Mr Hutchinson.

His lack of engagement on this topic speaks volumes about his superficiality.

He was an officer because of where he went to school. If he'd gone to the local comp he'd have been a squaddie. I wouldn't exaggerate his understanding of the lives of working class people because of his army service.
I wouldn't underestimate it either. It was clear from anecdotal evidence of those with whom Harry served that he didn't keep away from mixing with his men at all.
As well, he met many members of disadvantaged youth in his work with sport charities that helped specifically these groups.
  #872  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
I wouldn't underestimate it either. It was clear from anecdotal evidence of those with whom Harry served that he didn't keep away from mixing with his men at all.
As well, he met many members of disadvantaged youth in his work with sport charities that helped specifically these groups.
Any understanding would be slight at best. With the best will in the world how could it be anything other than superficial? By his own admission he was ignorant of many issues surrounding race. By the same token how could he have any genuine understanding of the lives of people in places like Burnley or Middlesborough? It's just not realistic.
  #873  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:19 PM
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https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/gq-her...on-anti-racism

Transcript of the interview between Patrick Hutchinson and Harry. They clearly got on, and I note in this that Patrick himself spoke at one point of 'unconscious bias' at work.
  #874  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Durham View Post


I found Mr Hutchinson a likeable & modest man with some insightful points to make about working class communities in Britain.

From approx 18 minutes in:

“There’s a big class thing in here too”

“It’s not only black people who are struggling….There are white people who are struggling who are in impoverished areas along with black people, who don’t get the opportunities & the chances that others might get”.

And the duke’s reply to this point? He doesn’t respond at all. He ignores it completely. Why?

Conceivably he doesn’t understand it. Perhaps talk around the lack of opportunities for white working class people makes him feel uncomfortable. Not exactly surprising for a member of the royal family. As likely as not he deliberately chooses to ignore it because it doesn’t fit his agenda. Maybe he obfuscates because in his eyes Mr Hutchinson has gone off script. Probably it’s a mix of all four.

The contrast between Mr Hutchinson & the duke is stark. Mr Hutchinson is clearly a sincere & thoughtful man. The comparison does not flatter the duke.
I agree, I think Harry missed the golden opportunity to change the critics' (or even cynics') view of Meghan and himself, where they are pushing equality when it suits their agenda. Had Harry at least engaged or even acknowledge that white working class boys are one of the lowest admission to university and underperformance in school, he could have turn things around of being balance and not bias of just pushing one particular side of argument/agenda. On the other hand, I could understand that he is uncomfortable with class, given that he is from a very financially privilege and well socially connected background. And he probably does not want to be perceived as a champaign socialist like some celebrities and politicians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Tehy dont have to be geniuses because they are advised by people who are (if needed) more up to speed, who are there to advise them and write their speeches...
#Harry has clearly been given a bit of tutoring by Meghan and parrotts what she says, and if soemone goes off script he's lost. He doesn't IMO feel uncomfortable with the idea of white working class people needing more help and opportuntiies, he just doesn't know anything about it.. and is lost when it comes up
This is what I felt as well, Harry seems to be speaking Meghan's opinions that does not necessary applied to British society. His speech appeared to be "imported" from America. Again, Meghan probably does not understand that class (or SES) is the one of the biggest division of UK society, not just race. She either does not know or deliberately ignore (as it not suit her agenda) ongoing issues within white working class. Cynics and critics would certainly believe it's the latter, given that at one point Meghan was pushing the decolonisation of university curriculum and tackle the dominance of "male, pale and stale academics", or even "white privilege" and "male "privilege".

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o...ties-p8znzs5gl
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...the-curriculum

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I agree that I would hope the members of the royal family would know a bit what is going on in British society (ideally also about all the other realms the queen is head of state of but that's probably too much to ask). However, he himself admitted that 'unconscious bias, having the upbringing and education that I had, I had no idea what is was, no idea it existed', shows that somehow he didn't know the British society as well but it seems he now has seen the light, thanks to his wife, and is starting to lecture everybody on it - and in doing so, missing other real issues presented to him: such as the point that it's not just about race, it is also very much about class (and SES) - he hasn't seen the light on that one.

In any case, as someone who said goodbye to his role as royal representative, I don't think he should take it upon himself to start commenting or lecturing on what's wrong and how people should see the world like he does now. Had he remained within the firm, he could have highlighted organisations that were making a difference in this area as part of his royal role; now it is just completely out of place.
Again, I agree with you that Harry's speech appeared to be lecturing and preaching ideas primarily from Meghan. The term "unconscious bias" has been very controversial in UK politics. Apparently up to 40 Conservative MPs refuses to take the Unconscious Bias Training, which is voluntary. Some of their responses were very strong to say the least. I assumed some Conservative Party members would feel the same.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-54282685
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...ning-sfnrm895g

Edit: I have included Somebody's quote and unconscious bias
  #875  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:39 PM
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What is SES? and poor H isn't likely to say anyting original, since he's learning from Meg and i doubt if she's saying anything original....
  #876  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:40 PM
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George and Amal Clooney deny that they spoke to anyone at the wedding about them not knowing Harry and Meghan. Yet another baseless rumour about the Sussexes shot down after being repeated ad nauseum by countless tabloids, magazines and news sites.

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-...rtholomew-news
  #877  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:43 PM
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Still amazes me that ppl are so willing to believe tabloids after all we know about their lack of accuracy.

I think its a good discussion. We need more of these to take place, to include other topics connected.


LaRae
  #878  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:45 PM
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I dont say its true, but even if it is, are the Clooneys going to say "oh sure we didn't know the couple hardly at all...."
  #879  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:50 PM
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The Sussexes like the rest of us in the Golden State will be enjoying a different sort of Thanksgiving holiday based upon the guidelines recently issued. The state has color coded tiers for each county with purple being the most restrictive, then red, orange and yellow as the least restrictive. Santa Barbara Co. is currently at red.


No singing "Over the river and through the woods.."



https://royalcentral.co.uk/uk/sussex...vernor-151869/


Quote:
The Duke and Duchess of Sussex are set to have a very different American Thanksgiving this year thanks to the new rules issued by California Governor Gavin Newsom. The Governor has issued the new rules in an effort to combat the ongoing pandemic and has said that celebrations must take place outside and include no more than three households. Additionally, people must keep their masks on at all times except when eating and drinking. Anytype of singing, chanting or shouting is “strongly discouraged.”
Celebrations are also limited to only two hours.
  #880  
Old 10-27-2020, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
What is SES? and poor H isn't likely to say anyting original, since he's learning from Meg and i doubt if she's saying anything original....
Socioeconomic Status, which is "an economic and sociological combined total measure of a person's work experience and of an individual's or family's economic and social position in relation to others".

I think term "SES" is more widely used in America, Australia, New Zealand, Canada ... than class (i.e. Working class, middle class or upper class), compared to the UK.
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