The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family, News and Events 1: September-December 2020

[AC21091968]

Victoria Arbiter has written an article on Honey Channel 9 Australia about Harry's potential conflicts if he actually decide to become an US citizen. She also mentioned on different immigration visas that Harry could potentially apply.

Victoria Arbiter: 'Why Prince Harry could soon face his most complicated oath of allegiance yet'
https://honey.nine.com.au/royals/vic...2-9e8522ba7051

[Betsypaige]

Originally Posted by AC21091968

Victoria Arbiter has written an article on Honey Channel 9 Australia about Harry's potential conflicts if he actually decide to become an US citizen. She also mentioned on different immigration visas that Harry could potentially apply.

Victoria Arbiter: 'Why Prince Harry could soon face his most complicated oath of allegiance yet'
https://honey.nine.com.au/royals/vic...2-9e8522ba7051

I’m all for people who love the United States becoming citizens, but for Harry to do so means a further and more permanent rejection of his heritage. If he does choose to become a citizen, I do think he shouldn’t have his titles.

[QueenMathilde]

Originally Posted by Betsypaige

I’m all for people who love the United States becoming citizens, but for Harry to do so means a further and more permanent rejection of his heritage. If he does choose to become a citizen, I do think he shouldn’t have his titles.

I may be wrong but I don't think a US citizen can have a title. I thought that's why when the Queen gives honors to an American they don't become Dame or Sir.

[Osipi]

I found a good article that gives insight into UK citizens applying for and becoming a naturalized US citizens. There are points in it that would really trip Harry up. This part right here. "I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen". Would Harry actually denounce his loyalty to his grandmother/father/brother to be a US citizen? I don't think he will.

https://www.fosterglobal.com/blog/i-...l-citizenship/

Americans can and do hold titles. Its been reported that "So, an American citizen cannot be named a Prince, Duke, or any other noble title by our own government. However, the Constitution does not ban American citizens from receiving titles of nobility from other countries, and a child could actually be born into both."

https://www.irontontribune.com/2009/...%20into%20both.

[acdc1]

Originally Posted by Osipi

I found a good article that gives insight into UK citizens applying for and becoming a naturalized US citizens. There are points in it that would really trip Harry up. This part right here. "I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen". Would Harry actually denounce his loyalty to his grandmother/father/brother to be a US citizen? I don't think he will.

https://www.fosterglobal.com/blog/i-...l-citizenship/

Americans can and do hold titles. Its been reported that "So, an American citizen cannot be named a Prince, Duke, or any other noble title by our own government. However, the Constitution does not ban American citizens from receiving titles of nobility from other countries, and a child could actually be born into both."

https://www.irontontribune.com/2009/...%20into%20both.

I’m not an expert on US citizenship at all, but what if he becomes a dual citizen- would he still need to renounce allegiance if he’s still a UK citizen?

[Osipi]

Originally Posted by acdc1

I’m not an expert on US citizenship at all, but what if he becomes a dual citizen- would he still need to renounce allegiance if he’s still a UK citizen?

From the first article I quoted. "“A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth. U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another.”

UK does not seem to mind when its citizens takes up the citizenship of another country, including American citizenship, which requires the taking of the oath of allegiance."

These facts on citizenship are aimed at the everyday person. I don't think there has been any case of a British royal applying to be naturalized as a US citizen before. On the US side, there'd probably be no real hassle. On the UK side, at this time, its anyone's guess how the Queen and Parliament would handle this as far as titles go and such.

Interesting to think about.

[Heavs]

Originally Posted by acdc1

I’m not an expert on US citizenship at all, but what if he becomes a dual citizen- would he still need to renounce allegiance if he’s still a UK citizen?

From looking around it still seems you have to take the oath, even if you hold dual nationality/citizenship. I know someone born with dual citizenship who served in the Royal Navy which clearly involves an oath and "loyalty" to the Queen but they also didn't have to make that oath because they were born in Boston and raised in the UK.

Regardless of whether it's just legal words Harry says and he's not renouncing loyalty "in his heart" the media and any other detractors as well as politicians of all parties would still have a massive field day. And it just descend into more drama.

As for titles, this seems to give a good run down in the laws regarding titles in the US and it seems that on becoming a citizen you have to renounce any foreign titles.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/usa/usnob.htm

There's nothing to stop the Earl of Wharncliffe (who was born with US citizenship) using his titles socially or inheriting them but I assume they aren't on any official documents or recognised by the government.

If Harry ever became a citizen (and I have huge doubts about that) then he might have to. Even if they don't it's another tick in the farcical column. Move to the US because you hate "the institution" and oryal life, become a US citizen (a country that is still extremely proud of the Revolutionary War against the crown) become an obvious Democratic and very progressive supporter, STILL using his royal titles for personal gain.

[Betsypaige]

Originally Posted by Heavs

From looking around it still seems you have to take the oath, even if you hold dual nationality/citizenship. I know someone born with dual citizenship who served in the Royal Navy which clearly involves an oath and "loyalty" to the Queen but they also didn't have to make that oath because they were born in Boston and raised in the UK.

Regardless of whether it's just legal words Harry says and he's not renouncing loyalty "in his heart" the media and any other detractors as well as politicians of all parties would still have a massive field day. And it just descend into more drama.

As for titles, this seems to give a good run down in the laws regarding titles in the US and it seems that on becoming a citizen you have to renounce any foreign titles.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/usa/usnob.htm

There's nothing to stop the Earl of Wharncliffe (who was born with US citizenship) using his titles socially or inheriting them but I assume they aren't on any official documents or recognised by the government.

If Harry ever became a citizen (and I have huge doubts about that) then he might have to. Even if they don't it's another tick in the farcical column. Move to the US because you hate "the institution" and oryal life, become a US citizen (a country that is still extremely proud of the Revolutionary War against the crown) become an obvious Democratic and very progressive supporter, STILL using his royal titles for personal gain.

That’s my issue with it, and it’s why I think - even if Harry could keep his titles should he become a U.S. citizen- he should renounce them.

[acdc1]

Originally Posted by Betsypaige

That’s my issue with it, and it’s why I think - even if Harry could keep his titles should he become a U.S. citizen- he should renounce them.

I’m very curious to see what will happen. On one hand, I think that as of now it is looking very likely that Harry will be living in the US long-term. The Sussexes have centered their business and philanthropic interests in Los Angeles, and I don’t think that they (particularly Meghan) have any intention of moving back to the UK on a permanent or even extended basis. It’s very clear to me that California is where they are building their home and where they will raise their son and any future children. I could definitely see a desire to become a citizen of the country where he’s now chosen to build his life and raise his family, and take part fully in all the rights and privileges afforded to US citizens (like voting, which is obviously now an important issue to the couple).

On the other, it does bring into question the issue of titles and loyalty to his family. I’m sure he will always remain a British citizen, but is it appropriate for someone who is renouncing loyalty to foreign crowns to keep a royal title of a foreign crown? Could he drop the “prince” titles and be styled as a non-royal duke?

[Somebody]

Originally Posted by acdc1

On the other, it does bring into question the issue of titles and loyalty to his family. I’m sure he will always remain a British citizen, but is it appropriate for someone who is renouncing loyalty to foreign crowns to keep a royal title of a foreign crown? Could he drop the “prince” titles and be styled as a non-royal duke?

And not only that but he would still be in the line of succession... (with a small but still real chance of being called to the throne if something would happen with William and his family - in the past we've seen whole (royal) family units die in an airplane crash, which I sincerely hope won't be repeated but an accident/crash of this magnitude is possible for each and everyone of us). However, the British apparently don't really care about foreigners in their line of succession as their line of succession even includes foreign monarchs...

[acdc1]

Originally Posted by Somebody

And not only that but he would still be in the line of succession... (with a small but still real chance of being called to the throne if something would happen with William and his family - in the past we've seen whole (royal) family units die in an airplane crash, which I sincerely hope won't be repeated but an accident/crash of this magnitude is possible for each and everyone of us). However, the British apparently don't really care about foreigners in their line of succession as their line of succession even includes foreign monarchs...

If he retains his British citizenship I’m sure that he would still be in the line of succession, as there are other dual citizens fairly high up in the line, such as Archie and (I believe) Lord Frederick Windsor’s daughter Maud, who was born in Los Angeles.

[AC21091968]

Originally Posted by Somebody

And not only that but he would still be in the line of succession... (with a small but still real chance of being called to the throne if something would happen with William and his family - in the past we've seen whole (royal) family units die in an airplane crash, which I sincerely hope won't be repeated but an accident/crash of this magnitude is possible for each and everyone of us). However, the British apparently don't really care about foreigners in their line of succession as their line of succession even includes foreign monarchs...

And there are issues with Harry's (and possibly Archie's) role as Counsellor of State. The criteria include

Councillors of State must be at least 21 years old (except the heir apparent or presumptive, who need only be 18 years old), they must be domiciled in the United Kingdom, and they must be a British subject

The word "domiciled" is the key. I'm not quite sure how the Privy Council, particularly government secretary of states would react if a Counsellor of State who don't permanently lived in a UK, can preside over them and "represent" the sovereign. Unless of course, he/she was very informed (by extensive research or advised by royal staff).

From Wikipedia, I know it's not accurate, but gave examples where the Counsellors of States are not in the direct line of succession, not technically senior working royals and not hold Royal styles and titles.

Since the passage of the Regency Act 1937, the only persons to have been Counsellors of State while not a queen consort, prince, or princess were George Lascelles, 7th Earl of Harewood; Alastair Windsor, 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn (although Windsor had been a prince between 1914 and 1917 and never served in practice during his short tenure); and Maud Carnegie, Countess of Southesk (who was entitled to, but did not use the style of princess).

Unlike Harry and Archie's case, 7th Earl of Harewood, Alastair Windsor, 2nd Duke of Connaught and Strathearn and Maud Carnegie, Countess of Southesk (legally Princess Maud, Countess of Southesk) mainly resided in the UK.

The question isn't about having someone in the Privy Council who is not a working royal, but more about permanently reside in the UK.

It would not surprised me if some Privy Counsellors prefer Princess Beatrice as a Counsellor of State over Harry and possibly Archie, despite being lower in line of succession and was never a working royal. This is assumed that Princess Beatrice remains living the UK.

[Heavs]

Originally Posted by Somebody

And not only that but he would still be in the line of succession... (with a small but still real chance of being called to the throne if something would happen with William and his family - in the past we've seen whole (royal) family units die in an airplane crash, which I sincerely hope won't be repeated but an accident/crash of this magnitude is possible for each and everyone of us). However, the British apparently don't really care about foreigners in their line of succession as their line of succession even includes foreign monarchs...

I'm willing to bet that most Brits don't know who's in the line of succession beyond the Queen's immediate family, let alone that there could be a "Viking Invasion" from Norway (that's what the press would call it) or Denmark or that there could be another Willem of Orange situation etc, because the possibilities are so remote it's laughable. The monarchy would likely be abolished if they needed to go further than Zara, probably before then.

With Harry I do believe that even if dual citizens are not required to formally renounce titles in the way someone becoming a sole citizen of the US would, I can see a huge amount of fuss being made for someone 6th in the line to literally renounce the Queen and not formally renounce his place as well, even if it is just legalese. Apart from anything else, it's hugely pointed about where your loyalties lie. And most monarchies these days are at pains to point out that they are for, from and of the country and its people. No importing German Princelings or too successful generals.

[AuntieSparkle]

I would venture to say that no matter what, he is a member of the peerage. Unless the Queen herself pulls his title. If you look at the case of the Duke of Atholl, he was born in South Africa. He did not come to Scotland except on holiday until he took over the Dukedom and sought citizenship at his father's death. I may be wrong and his father had sorted the citizenship out before.

[Curryong]

A look at the new Diana Interview documentary and why Meghan was right to leave.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/en...6b0c02ca334779

[angieuk]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-Marines.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...rt-claims.html

Just accept the fact they're never coming back; except for weddings and funerals; same as the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

Don't believe Wallis returned to the UK for the funeral of King George V1.

[Hallo girl]

Originally Posted by Curryong

A look at the new Diana Interview documentary and why Meghan was right to leave.

https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/en...6b0c02ca334779

And maybe why William advised caution.

[ACO]

Originally Posted by angieuk

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-Marines.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...rt-claims.html

Just accept the fact they're never coming back; except for weddings and funerals; same as the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

Don't believe Wallis returned to the UK for the funeral of King George V1.

This is the same man who a few weeks ago spoke of a letter he wrote in which he basically told Harry to leave Meghan and Archie in California. If this is the same letter... anyone surprised he no response? Harry is a grown man. He is no longer a working royals. His military positions are just now a technicality and everyone knows it. Time to stop hoping this man returns without his wife and child.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by ACO

This is the same man who a few weeks ago spoke of a letter he wrote in which he basically told Harry to leave Meghan and Archie in California. If this is the same letter... anyone surprised he no response? Harry is a grown man. He is no longer a working royals. His military positions are just now a technicality and everyone knows it. Time to stop hoping this man returns without his wife and child.

I dont think anyone cares, honestly if he comes back with or without wife and child.. The RF may want him back as they are short of workers but then again he's proved unreliable. And clealry part of the reason he has gone to the US is due to Meg's dislike of the UK, so its possible that he may eventually get home sick and want to come home..

[TLLK]

Originally Posted by angieuk

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-Marines.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...rt-claims.html

Just accept the fact they're never coming back; except for weddings and funerals; same as the Duke and Duchess of Windsor.

Don't believe Wallis returned to the UK for the funeral of King George V1.

I am rather surprised by the Major General's revelation that reportedly the Royal Marines have not received any communication (written/electronic/phone) from Prince Harry in the last 6 1/2 months. According to Thompson, this is why they're considering seeking a new Captain General. I truly hope that Thompson is misinformed and that Prince Harry has been communicating with the Royal Marines.

But informed sources say the Prince has not been in touch by phone, letter nor email since his last appearance as an honorary Marine in March, prompting exasperated top brass to start considering a replacement.

Going to take into consideration that this is the DM and it's possible that their "informed sources" are uniformed ones.