Princess Eugenie of York Current Events 5: October 2008-April 2010

[Elspeth]

Welcome to part 5 of the thread to discuss Princess Eugenie's activities.

Please try not to have the thread veer off too much into discussions of her fashion and appearance (which should take place in the Beatrice and Eugenie thread in the House of Fashion), and also please bear in mind our rule about the difference between criticism and bashing.

Part 4, which covers June through October, is here.

 

[muriel]

Just coming back on the point that Skydragon raised about the increased cost of security because of Eugenie taking this trip with her father - do you think it would have been better for her to be sunning herself in the Carribean instead?

The key thing is that the girls have 24 hour security cover, wherever they go. It is wrong for us to expect that the girls restrict their movements, because of concerns relating to incremental security costs. Either the government cosider it appropriate for them to have security, or they do not (and I personally do not think they really need secuirty!)

I have never supported the idea of Andrew taking his daughters along, but I do think they will probably learn a thing or two on a trip like this compared to flopping on a beach somewhere.

Are they or should they be groomed for future royal duties - not really, as they will have increasingly minor roles with the passage of time.

 

[Skydragon]

Unless it is intended that they are only arm candy for someone, there is little to learn at the evening receptions that she shouldn't already know. Andrew is after all not supposed to be there merely as 'a royal', but as a government employee. Sorry, you won't convince me that this is training, it is the usual extras grabbing Air Miles Andy, who never really went away!

 

[MARG]

Unless it is intended that they are only arm candy for someone, there is little to learn at the evening receptions that she shouldn't already know. Andrew is after all not supposed to be there merely as 'a royal', but as a government employee. Sorry, you won't convince me that this is training, it is the usual extras grabbing Air Miles Andy, who never really went away!

Aww come on Sky. Give them a break!

Oi! Hold on there. I didn't mean a leg apiece!

 

[Charlotte1]

Surely the Gloucesters and Kents don´t have 24 hour security? If they have, then it is time for another fuss.

All HRHs receive 24/7 security, not just Princesses Beatrice and Eugenie. Prince and Princess Michael of Kent are HRH they receive 24hr security including when they’re on private trips abroad or in Prince Michael’s case on business trips to Russia. The recent photos of them holidaying in Italy and Croatia, that was with royal security. It’s all very well to be critical of the security given to Eugenie and Beatrice but it’s the same for all HRHs. Diana’s protection officer Ken Wharfe after falling out with her was transferred to the Duke of Kent, and he wrote that was much calmer. Peter and Zara Philips, the Kent and Gloucester children don't receive protection because they aren't HRH, their parents do. It's unfair to be critical of the protection that Eugenie and Beatrice receive as their titles require it according to royal protection guidelines.

Why does she need to meet national leaders, when Charles becomes King, and if William marries, she will be a minor royal. I don't think we can rely on her meeting many national leaders on this holiday.

This is not a new thing for so called minor royals. Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent took her son the present Duke on an official trip to South East Asia when he finished as Le Rosey and before he went to Sandhurst, part holiday, part reward for finishing school, part royal training. Princess Alexandra also accompanied her mother on overseas ‘training’ trips. Princess Margaret in the 1980s took her daughter Lady Sarah, along on a trip to China, even though Sarah was never expected to do any royal duties. And I’m prepared to bet that neither Marina nor Margaret paid for their children to accompany them out of their private incomes. The Kents and Lady Sarah also spent their time going mainly to receptions and dinners, just like Eugenie and before her Beatrice. Eugenie on her first day met the Premier of Kyrgyzstan

Perhaps the Queen one day will send her as her official representative to some country of value to the commerce and prestige of the UK but I think she should finish her schooling before then.

Eugenie has already had more education than Princess Alexandra, who left school just after her 16th birthday ever had. Alexandra as cousin of the Queen still was sent off to represent her in various countries, including giving some of them their independence. And the same amount that Princess Anne had, Anne completed her A-levels as has Eugenie. Neither Anne nor Alexandra went on to further education.

Beatrice was supposed to travel for her gap year wasn't she, but I think that fizzled out after her trainee royal holiday.

Beatrice travelled in South America before her trainee royal trip. Photos of her at Machu Pichu and in Argentina made the media. She travelled with friends. ( She spent time in the US right at the beginning of her Gap Year) She later travelled to Thailand after the royal traineeship, again Facebook pictures have just appeared of that trip.


Sorry moderators I don't know why the font is so small could it be made bigger? Easier on people's eyes! thanks

 

[Skydragon]

Oi! Hold on there. I didn't mean a leg apiece!

Thank you MARG, that's a coffee all over the place!

This is not a new thing for so called minor royals. Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent took her son-----snipped----- Princess Alexandra also accompanied her mother on overseas ‘training’ trips. Princess Margaret in the 1980s took her daughter Lady Sarah, along on a trip to China,---snipped

You are however talking of a time when the Royal Family was still held in high regard. Times are different now and people, ordinary people are questioning the expense.

----snipped--- She later travelled to Thailand after the royal traineeship

And what exactly has she done in the way of Royal events since her 'training', in fact what has she done, full stop!

 

[Menarue]

Thank you MARG, that's a coffee all over the place!You are however talking of a time when the Royal Family was still held in high regard. Times are different now and people, ordinary people are questioning the expense.And what exactly has she done in the way of Royal events since her 'training', in fact what has she done, full stop!

What has she done..... let me think........actually I will have to think a bit longer and get back on this. Perhaps someone with a better memory and time to write a full list can help with this.

 

[jcbcode99]

What has she done..... let me think........actually I will have to think a bit longer and get back on this. Perhaps someone with a better memory and time to write a full list can help with this.

You know, Menarue, I'm thinking, too, and I'm coming up blank. Let's see there was that time she was checking the streets of London to make sure they were safe.....no wait, that was coming home from a club at 4am. OK, let's see--there was that time she went to, no wait, doesn't count--she was with her publicity hound of a mother---then there was that time she gave an official tour of the campus of her school--no wait, she was actually frollicking naked on the lawn---


Now, being serious for a moment....She, along with Bea, did represent Andrew at the Service of Thanksgiving for Diana, and last week I believe Eugenie undertook her first royal engagement and opened a Cancer Ward--and now she's off for two weeks accompanying her father. It is better than partying all night, I do agree. And, I think that she is making wiser choices at this age than her sister did--but, I do question the need for 24 hour security for a minor Royal.

 

[Menarue]

I have a thought, Prince Andrew will be having 24 hour security, would it be too much for them to keep an eye on his daughter too? Of course that would mean staying with her father, but then, she is learning, so it would be part of the course to stay and see how he does it. Perhaps they are already going to do this?
In my time there was no such thing as a gap year, but quite often young girls were off to what was called a finishing school in Switzerland, most of them had pretty fluent French when they came back.

 

[muriel]

I think how somebody spends their gap year tells a lot about that person. The unfortunate fact is that an awful lot of young people just use it as an extended holiday, and pretty much fritter away most of the time often going from vacation to vacation. I think that is what Bea did, and if not careful, that is what Eugenie will end up doing. Such a waste!

 

[Bella]

I don't quite understand how Pss B & E can be considered "minor" royals. They are the granddaughters of HM, daughters of a Prince. They are not cousins or in-laws. They are very high profile: 5th & 6th in line to the British throne. That to me does not constitute a minor royal. Of course they need security! In these precarious times, absolutely. I'm actually amazed that Peter & Zara Phillips don't have security. Now who should pay for this is another matter, but the issue of these girls needing FT security goes w/out question, imo.

Also, I disagree that B & E will fade away into the sunset in a matter of time. If anything I feel they will be called upon to represent the BRF as the Kents, Gloucesters, P/Pss Michael age and retire from public duty. By that time Charles should have become King and he (and his wife) and his sons (and their wives) will obviously be the Main Focus of the BRF, but that will only leave his siblings to carry on other royal duties and Pss Anne's children, not being HRHs, will probably not so who does that leave: Pss B & E. So I def. think it's good that the York girls start learning about international protocol and things like that. Giving them exposure to the movers and shakers they'll probably be dealing with in the future is a wise decision. And things like banquets and dinners and soirees are very important in this world, so even tho Pss E may only be attending 'after meeting' events, it's still a good idea.

 

[kimebear]

You are however talking of a time when the Royal Family was still held in high regard. Times are different now and people, ordinary people are questioning the expense.

Then, quite frankly, the 'ordinary people' should vote to stop funding the PPO's if that is the case. It is a bit unfair to cast blame on Eugenie for wanting to travel like any other girl her age just because of the taxpayer cost for her security officers. Also to accuse an 18 yr old of not working for the public when it was not too long ago that her cousin, the future king, wasn't doing anything either, even though he is several years older, is equally unfair.

The times you speak of were when royals, especially the female ones, did not go to college, but went directly into public service because the public was expected to provide for them for life in one capacity or another. That won't happen anymore, so now the girls need an education. Who was the last HRH born British princess to attend university before Beatrice?

I have a thought, Prince Andrew will be having 24 hour security, would it be too much for them to keep an eye on his daughter too? Of course that would mean staying with her father, but then, she is learning, so it would be part of the course to stay and see how he does it. Perhaps they are already going to do this?

Although his detractors will be reluctant to admit this, Andrew is actually working on this trip and it would be inappropriate for Eugenie to accompany him on these meetings. It is a little more complicated a relationship than a "take your daughter to work day" at this level. So sharing protection would not be feasible in this way as they could not choose which one to watch when they are in two separate locations.

 

[Skydragon]

Then, quite frankly, the 'ordinary people' should vote to stop funding the PPO's if that is the case. It is a bit unfair to cast blame on Eugenie for wanting to travel like any other girl her age just because of the taxpayer cost for her security officers. Also to accuse an 18 yr old of not working for the public when it was not too long ago that her cousin, the future king, wasn't doing anything either, even though he is several years older, is equally unfair.

TPTB have said each time that Beatrice & Eugenie were on holiday with their father to be taught royal duties, I am simply asking what royal duties has Beatrice done since the tuition? How did being on holiday teach her how to cut ribbons, etc? I have no problem with either of them following in the footsteps of 100000 of youngsters, off on their gap year, to see the world, pick peaches, help in orphanages etc, but they all mange it without a couple of burly UK funded police officers to hold their hands. If people continue to see this complete waste of money funding the protection of these two girls, then they may just back the UK doing away with the monarchy altogether.

The times you speak of were when royals, especially the female ones, did not go to college, but went directly into public service because the public was expected to provide for them for life in one capacity or another. That won't happen anymore, so now the girls need an education. Who was the last HRH born British princess to attend university before Beatrice?

I was replying to Charlotte1, who posted details of the protection afforded other royals from past years. My reply was that it was done because then because the RF were held in high esteem, they were honoured and feted wherever they went. Now you can see the younger royals falling out of nightclubs etc. When the boys mother dispelled the aura that many thought surrounded the RF, it dispelled the reverence. Whereas they respect (or should that be respec) people that are stars, celebs and the like and those like Branson, they do question exactly what have the royals done to deserve 'our' money to be spent on them. As the older generation die off, we may see a rise in the amount of people calling for a republic here in the UK.

Although his detractors will be reluctant to admit this, Andrew is actually working on this trip and it would be inappropriate for Eugenie to accompany him on these meetings. It is a little more complicated a relationship than a "take your daughter to work day" at this level. So sharing protection would not be feasible in this way as they could not choose which one to watch when they are in two separate locations.

Yes Andrew is out there working as an employee of the government, so why take the daughter, why couldn't she have popped off on holiday/gap year without her father?

 

[kimebear]

TPTB have said each time that Beatrice & Eugenie were on holiday with their father to be taught royal duties, I am simply asking what royal duties has Beatrice done since the tuition? How did being on holiday teach her how to cut ribbons, etc? I have no problem with either of them following in the footsteps of 100000 of youngsters, off on their gap year, to see the world, pick peaches, help in orphanages etc, but they all mange it without a couple of burly UK funded police officers to hold their hands. If people continue to see this complete waste of money funding the protection of these two girls, then they may just back the UK doing away with the monarchy altogether.

I think you have created a bit of an impossible situation for them, then. Firstly, let's assume that Beatrice and Eugenie must have told their grandmother where to stick the royal duties that she wanted them to carry out if the girls are to be blamed for not undertaking any.

How will Eugenie's trip help teach her how to cut ribbons? I don't know about the ribbons, but as she is expected to participate in the evening events, she will get experience at that level. Just because she was born a princess does not mean that she has a lot of experience with formal galas and dinners with foreign dignitaries. She is only 18 and has never attended a function like this at her grandmother's court. She needs to get the experience from somewhere, after all.

As for the bodyguards, I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the extreme. Are you suggesting that all that stands between the UK's monarchy and a republic is a couple of security officers for the York princesses? If that is the case, then things are dire indeed.

What would be your suggestions then? Should the girls not go to university and just do local public duties? How about not protecting them overseas? What about not allowing them to leave the country altogether? How about Andrew taking a job at Burger King to make sure that it is not taxpayer money spent when Eugenie needs fare money for the Tube? Better still. Let's see a DM article about how the forever disgraced former Duchess of York now pays for her daughters' security out of her book proceeds because the UK won't protect two princess daughters of a decorated war hero. That should go over really well with the 'ordinary people'.

 

[Menarue]

Oh yes, I had forgotten, they´re the daughters of the hero of the Falklands. We can´t forget that.

 

[kimebear]

Nor should their father be treated as if he never did anything for his country other than drain the taxpayer coffers.

 

[Bella]

Nor should their father be treated as if he never did anything for his country other than drain the taxpayer coffers.

Right on, Kimebear!

And Sky, you make alot of good points but I do have to say that you can not compare the York girls to 1000 other students going off on their gap year w/out 2 burly bgs. The 1000 other students aren't potential kidnapping/murder targets as the York girls are. And while they were indeed born into a life of great wealth and privy, they also could be blown away just walking down the street by some fanatic who wants some attention or who's trying to make some statement. Most of us can enjoy relative (and safe) anonymity but they will always have to live w the underlying fear of being harmed just for who they are.

 

[Skydragon]

I think you have created a bit of an impossible situation for them, then. Firstly, let's assume that Beatrice and Eugenie must have told their grandmother where to stick the royal duties that she wanted them to carry out if the girls are to be blamed for not undertaking any.

I wouldn't for a moment think they said that, but the fact remains that they were probably not invited to do any 'royal duties', they are just not crowd pullers.

How will Eugenie's trip help teach her how to cut ribbons? I don't know about the ribbons, but as she is expected to participate in the evening events, she will get experience at that level. Just because she was born a princess does not mean that she has a lot of experience with formal galas and dinners with foreign dignitaries. She is only 18 and has never attended a function like this at her grandmother's court. She needs to get the experience from somewhere, after all.

What evening events, how many have we seen her invited to? She would have been taught to eat at the table with knife, fork and spoons while she was school, if not at home.

As for the bodyguards, I'm sorry, but I just don't understand the extreme. Are you suggesting that all that stands between the UK's monarchy and a republic is a couple of security officers for the York princesses? If that is the case, then things are dire indeed.

Now you are being just a little condescending. It is not just the bodyguards, it is all the money that people presume is being spent to give this girl a holiday, very few believe the royal in training line. Most days these girls put themselves in danger, by tipping alcohol down their throats until they can barely stand and yet they may be in danger from who exactly. They may be titled Princess, but they are not very ladylike.

What would be your suggestions then? Should the girls not go to university and just do local public duties? How about not protecting them overseas? What about not allowing them to leave the country altogether? How about Andrew taking a job at Burger King to make sure that it is not taxpayer money spent when Eugenie needs fare money for the Tube? Better still. Let's see a DM article about how the forever disgraced former Duchess of York now pays for her daughters' security out of her book proceeds because the UK won't protect two princess daughters of a decorated war hero. That should go over really well with the 'ordinary people'.

They can do anything they want, with or without bodyguards. If their father seriously thinks they might need protecting, then pay for it! Even the police, last year said it was a waste of money! Disgraced forever DoY, where on earth did that come from? Decorated war hero, lets not go there please, I've known more deserving of a war medal and unsung undecorated war heroes than Andrew has had free meals, There are many decorated war heroes whose sons and daughters happily troll about without the call for protection.

The girl is getting a holiday with training on royal duties, lets hope when she returns from her adventures, we see her perform some of these royal duties!

 

[Skydragon]

snipped------- The 1000 other students aren't potential kidnapping/murder targets as the York girls are. And while they were indeed born into a life of great wealth and privy, they also could be blown away just walking down the street by some fanatic who wants some attention or who's trying to make some statement.

As has been shown by the events in New York, Pennsylvania, Arlington & of course London, anyone and everyone can be at risk!

 

[kimebear]

I wouldn't for a moment think they said that, but the fact remains that they were probably not invited to do any 'royal duties', they are just not crowd pullers.

I disagree. I think that having them in the public might encourage younger citizens to take an interest in the monarchy if they have the chance to see a royal contemporary.

What evening events, how many have we seen her invited to? She would have been taught to eat at the table with knife, fork and spoons while she was school, if not at home.

Princess Eugenie embarks on first Royal tour - Telegraph

"Although she will not attend any business meetings with ministers, she will accompany her father to evening receptions and dinners"

While I'm sure that she knows what fork to use during the salad, she will gain etiquette and protocol experience by attending any evening function she may be invited to while on this trip.

Now you are being just a little condescending. It is not just the bodyguards, it is all the money that people presume is being spent to give this girl a holiday, very few believe the royal in training line. Most days these girls put themselves in danger, by tipping alcohol down their throats until they can barely stand and yet they may be in danger from who exactly. They may be titled Princess, but they are not very ladylike.

I don't think you can call it condescension when I question how ridiculous the public call to action could become about these girls. In your own words they are not 'crowd pullers', they are not 'ladylike'. You quote that their protection is a 'waste of money'. Why not just lobby your MPs to abolish their protection and have done with it? They will never be on the civil list, so just end it already if the taxpayers don't want them. They don't have to lose their titles to lose their taxpayer funded goodies, and they could lose all the criticism that accompanies it which would be better in the long run for all concerned.

They can do anything they want, with or without bodyguards. If their father seriously thinks they might need protecting, then pay for it!

Well there is a double edged sword if I ever saw one. In your opinion all of Andrew's money is taxpayer funded money already. In your viewpoint then, what would be the difference if he did pay for their security himself?

Even the police, last year said it was a waste of money! Disgraced forever DoY, where on earth did that come from?

From the nine out of ten comments made in all of her threads on this board that are derrogatory in nature. The overwhelmingly negative tone of which are so off putting that members that like Sarah will not post there anymore.

Decorated war hero, lets not go there please, I've known more deserving of a war medal and unsung undecorated war heroes than Andrew has had free meals, There are many decorated war heroes whose sons and daughters happily troll about without the call for protection.

I know more people that live in my neighborhood that are deserving of being my next president than either of the two men that will win the position in a couple of days, but that doesn't change anything that either candidate has done in their lives or the privileges or risks that their position accords their families.

The girl is getting a holiday with training on royal duties, lets hope when she returns from her adventures, we see her perform some of these royal duties!

On this we can agree. Also, if there was a tiara worthy event in there somewhere, I wouldn't complain!

 

[Skydragon]

I disagree. I think that having them in the public might encourage younger citizens to take an interest in the monarchy if they have the chance to see a royal contemporary.

On that we will have to agree to disagree. Most youngsters would rather see a 'real' celeb, such as Leona Lewis.

Princess Eugenie embarks on first Royal tour - Telegraph
"Although she will not attend any business meetings with ministers, she will accompany her father to evening receptions and dinners"
While I'm sure that she knows what fork to use during the salad, she will gain etiquette and protocol experience by attending any evening function she may be invited to while on this trip.

All things she should already know. My own daughters were taught such things at home and at school and before you suggest, that was too long ago, my youngest is around the same age as these girls.

I don't think you can call it condescension when I question how ridiculous the public call to action could become about these girls. In your own words they are not 'crowd pullers', they are not 'ladylike'. You quote that their protection is a 'waste of money'. Why not just lobby your MPs to abolish their protection and have done with it? They will never be on the civil list, so just end it already if the taxpayers don't want them. They don't have to lose their titles to lose their taxpayer funded goodies, and they could lose all the criticism that accompanies it which would be better in the long run for all concerned.

The support for the monarchy to be abolished gains support every time the minor royals do this sort of thing. Daily Express | UK News :: £40,000 bill to protect Royals

Well there is a double edged sword if I ever saw one. In your opinion all of Andrew's money is taxpayer funded money already. In your viewpoint then, what would be the difference if he did pay for their security himself?

Because then the protection money would not be coming from the UK policing allowance but from the money already paid to Andrew.

From the nine out of ten comments made in all of her threads on this board that are derrogatory in nature. The overwhelmingly negative tone of which are so off putting that members that like Sarah will not post there anymore.

Why would that have any bearing on protection costs for these two?

I know more people that live in my neighborhood that are deserving of being my next president than either of the two men that will win the position in a couple of days, but that doesn't change anything that either candidate has done in their lives or the privileges or risks that their position accords their families.

Now that is just insulting to the men and women who have fought and died for their country. Many people do not know what a hero is and it is disturbing that you are holding Andrew up as a 'hero', he like many flew a helicopter in a war zone.

 

[Alison20]

Unfortunately, nowadays there are plenty of people who are what I call 'knockers' - and they always seem to get their views published (I presume to give some weird sort of balance).

Even the most ordinary of youngster nowadays goes out at weekends to clubs and pubs with their friends - but they don't have paparazzi flashing cameras in their faces at 2 in the morning, or whenever.

This country is still a monarchy, and a majority still want it that way. As an HRH and 6th in line to the throne, Eugenie is entitled to protection. Let us not forget that there are terrorists around the UK (and the world) who are bent on destablising the West, and what better way to cause a crisis than to capture/attack an HRH. This was the reason that Prince Harry had to be brought back from Afghanistan one his 'cover' had been blown.

It is only right that both Beatrice and Eugenie learn about doing Royal Duties. There is much talk about slimming down the Royal Family, but there is an incessant demand for family members to take on work in the form of supporting charities and promoting good causes. In the foreseeable future we will see the Queen, Prince Philip, Princess Alexandra, the Duke of Kent doing a lot less. The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester do a small but steady amount of representation, and Prince and Princess Michael do a small amount too. Soon they will also do less - and none of the next generation of the Gloucesters and Kents is royal, so they will not be available.

Since Prince Edward has decided that his children are not to take up their Royal titles (although I believe this could be rescinded), this will only leave William and Harry, and their wives, and Beatrice and Eugenie, to help out King Charles and Queen Camilla. It is quite right now that these Princesses should learn the ropes. Since Prince Andrew does not have a wife to accompany him on his working trips, it is entirely appropriate for one of the Princesses to go. (And did I read what seemed a sneer at Prince Andrew's service in the Navy? He was a good naval officer, and did his part in the Falklands War as bravely as any other naval helicopter pilot. I cannot see any reason to make snide comments about it.)

 

[Elspeth]

As has been shown by the events in New York, Pennsylvania, Arlington & of course London, anyone and everyone can be at risk!

Unless you're using this argument to suggest removing protection from the entire royal family, I don't see your point. The York princesses - themselves personally - are potential terrorist and kidnapping targets (to say nothing of being the subjects of harassment by paparazzi) because they're the Queen's granddaughters, unlike all the people who get killed in random acts of terrorism.

 

[kimebear]

On that we will have to agree to disagree. Most youngsters would rather see a 'real' celeb, such as Leona Lewis.

Perhaps, if we are talking about public figures in general, but if we are talking strictly about royalty, my original opinion still stands.

All things she should already know. My own daughters were taught such things at home and at school and before you suggest, that was too long ago, my youngest is around the same age as these girls.

There really is a difference between knowing how to act in a situation and actually getting the practice doing so. I think I may just be spinning my wheels trying to explain this, but what she is being exposed to right now is far and beyond the simple table and manners etiquette that you keep suggesting that it is.

The support for the monarchy to be abolished gains support every time the minor royals do this sort of thing. Daily Express | UK News :: £40,000 bill to protect Royals

"The total cost of security would have included about £12,000 on business class flights for the officers, who stay in five-star hotels with their charges and are understood to receive £120 a day in expenses on top of their wages."

Maybe the taxpayers should be upset at how high on the hog the security officers live while they are on duty, instead of being upset at the royals.

Because then the protection money would not be coming from the UK policing allowance but from the money already paid to Andrew.

But in your opinion, Andrew's money (and that of the rest of the royal family, minus the Waleses) is still all taxpayer money, including the Queen's. Would it honestly make you feel better about the situation if the Queen announced that she was giving Andrew another stipend to pay for the girls' security or, better yet, kept the public in the dark that she was doing it? Certainly we could agree that that is what would happen in such a situation?

Why would that have any bearing on protection costs for these two?

In reality, nothing. In my original post, I was creating an over the top scenario. You were the one that took issue with the words that I was using in a sarcastic manner. I know that you read the Daily Mail fairly regularly. Can you not honestly see an article such as the one I made the speculation about if Andrew and Sarah were to take the responsibility of paying for the security themselves? They already claim that Sarah bought Beatrice's car and that it is she that pays for the "family" vacations because Andrew is too poor.

Now that is just insulting to the men and women who have fought and died for their country. Many people do not know what a hero is and it is disturbing that you are holding Andrew up as a 'hero', he like many flew a helicopter in a war zone.

How exactly did I insult anyone? I was making a parallel reference. If anything, my post could read that I was fully acknowledging that there were more deserving military personnel than Andrew. I have the utmost respect for people in the military and, quite frankly, view them all as 'heroes', so I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth.

It is quite right now that these Princesses should learn the ropes. Since Prince Andrew does not have a wife to accompany him on his working trips, it is entirely appropriate for one of the Princesses to go.

Quite right. Better a Princess Eugenie on his arm, than the companion of the day.

 

[Skydragon]

Unfortunately, nowadays there are plenty of people who are what I call 'knockers' - and they always seem to get their views published (I presume to give some weird sort of balance).

Really. I would suggest that they are the minority, who struggle to get their views heard. Whilst I accept this is a forum to discuss the royals, if everyone is saying - oh how wonderful, the UK taxpayers are protecting these two girls at the expense of using the 40,000 for ordinary policing, then it becomes just another site.

This country is still a monarchy, and a majority still want it that way. As an HRH and 6th in line to the throne, Eugenie is entitled to protection. Let us not forget that there are terrorists around the UK (and the world) who are bent on destablising the West, and what better way to cause a crisis than to capture/attack an HRH. This was the reason that Prince Harry had to be brought back from Afghanistan one his 'cover' had been blown.

Yes it is still a monarchy and lets keep it this way by ensuring that the people of Britain see that their money is not spent needlessly. When ordinary families are losing their jobs and homes during a recession, the last thing they need to be told is that one of the royal youngsters is off on a jaunt but don't worry her father is paying for business class travel and board but you are paying to protect her from over drinking or having a holiday romance, which is probably the biggest danger she will face! If the police don't think protection for these girls is needed, then I am inclined to believe them. Your argument that 'terrorists' might destabilise the west by attacking B&E would surely also apply to the much loved and well regarded Zara.

It is only right that both Beatrice and Eugenie learn about doing Royal Duties.

Royal duties, what is she learning by attending these dinners. She should already know how to behave and how to eat nicely. If she has not learned table manners or how to speak properly to her elders by now, so much so that she needs training, then their upbringing must be questioned!

(And did I read what seemed a sneer at Prince Andrew's service in the Navy? He was a good naval officer, and did his part in the Falklands War as bravely as any other naval helicopter pilot. I cannot see any reason to make snide comments about it.)

Really, then you missed the assertion that he is a decorated war hero, in the true and now misused sense of the word, he was not a hero. He was just a helicopter pilot, as were many, doing the job he was paid for and enjoyed. There were many heroes during the Falklands, the Marines who marched for miles in appaling terrain as an example, they all received, like Andrew a campaign medal. In a generation that hold the likes of Paris Hilton up as their hero, or even Harry who spent a couple of well protected weeks in Afghanistan, was he brave to go, undoubtedly yes, was he a hero, no.

 

[Skydragon]

Unless you're using this argument to suggest removing protection from the entire royal family, I don't see your point. The York princesses - themselves personally - are potential terrorist and kidnapping targets (to say nothing of being the subjects of harassment by paparazzi) because they're the Queen's granddaughters, unlike all the people who get killed in random acts of terrorism.

If she is 'in training' as a royal representative, then surely the countries she is visiting to receive this training will look after her. No I am not suggesting removing the protection for the main players, but such lightweights as Beatrice and Eugenie do not need it, as evidenced by the protection unit themselves. IF a terrorist cell were to decide to kidnap one of them, does anyone think they would send one man, possibly two? Of course not, they would send five or six, armed men to snatch the girl, having shot the protection officers. The paparazzi only seem to harrass these girls when they are coming out of nightclubs or parties, act correctly and one or two ordinary policemen can intervene, as they do with any 'celeb'.

 

[muriel]

I think there are a few inter-related issues here that need to be looked at.

> What pubic roles are they expected to play in the future? My own view is a very minor one. In time, the focus will be on the (current) Wales family and thir offspring. The role of supporting royals will be that of Harry and family, the Wessex's, and Andrew an Anne. The York girls may do the odd balcony appearance or trooping the colour or appear at Christmas at church etc and may support a few charitis, but I doubt it will go much beyond that. It is therefore, IMO imperative that the girls develop careers for themselves, independent of the royal family - just like Peter and Zara. Some might argue that the girls have HRH titles, but that does not really matter in reality.

> Should the girls have security? Whilst their public profile may not warrant some, I think security is probably required given that they might be seen as soft targets by the various terrorist groups out there. Kidnaoping one of tese girls would jutr create a big public embarassment for th governent, and so the cost of security is a relatively small price to pay

> Should they travel with their father like the trip that E is taking? I can't see much value in them, but frankly am not too fussed as Andrew is paying for E. I am not concerned about the increemetal costs of flying her security. Its not a big deal in the context of the overall security bill. Also, you cant and should ot restrict the girlsfrom travelling because of the cost of security. Thats just ludicrous.

 

[Skydragon]

Perhaps, if we are talking about public figures in general, but if we are talking strictly about royalty, my original opinion still stands.

Then we will have to agree to disagree on that.

There really is a difference between knowing how to act in a situation and actually getting the practice doing so. I think I may just be spinning my wheels trying to explain this, but what she is being exposed to right now is far and beyond the simple table and manners etiquette that you keep suggesting that it is.

No it isn't, or do you think that HM eats out of her Tupperware or private supper parties are eaten off plates on their laps? As children of an officer, they would have been at the summer ball and all the other events put on for officers and their ladies where strict dress codes and exemplary behaviour is demanded. Attending a gala where a royal is present, is no different.

"The total cost of security would have included about £12,000 on business class flights for the officers, who stay in five-star hotels with their charges and are understood to receive £120 a day in expenses on top of their wages."

Maybe the taxpayers should be upset at how high on the hog the security officers live while they are on duty, instead of being upset at the royals.

If as you say, they need all this protection, of course the officers are obliged to stay in the same hotels, travel on the same flight and of course they are given an allowance to cover meals etc, all expenses that need not be paid if they did not have to look after these girls. What is worse, is that the figures are from Beatrices trip so will have risen drastically.

But in your opinion, Andrew's money (and that of the rest of the royal family, minus the Waleses) is still all taxpayer money, including the Queen's. Would it honestly make you feel better about the situation if the Queen announced that she was giving Andrew another stipend to pay for the girls' security or, better yet, kept the public in the dark that she was doing it? Certainly we could agree that that is what would happen in such a situation?

Probably but you are missing the point. You said "In your opinion all of Andrew's money is taxpayer funded money already. In your viewpoint then, what would be the difference if he did pay for their security himself?" The difference is that Andrew, from his pocket money should pay for the protection he feels they need, saving the taxpayer the bill for his daughter.

I know that you read the Daily Mail fairly regularly.

Ah, insults now! I could choose the Times or the Telegraph to post, but the Mail does lead with Royal related stories. Do I consider it worth buying, absolutely not but many 'ordinary' Britains do along with The Mirror and The Sun, the last two don't seem to specialise in ordinary royal related stories on page 3.

Can you not honestly see an article such as the one I made the speculation about if Andrew and Sarah were to take the responsibility of paying for the security themselves? They already claim that Sarah bought Beatrice's car and that it is she that pays for the "family" vacations because Andrew is too poor.

I should think most Brits would think great, about time. I don't recall an outcry about the family holidays or the car!

How exactly did I insult anyone? I was making a parallel reference. If anything, my post could read that I was fully acknowledging that there were more deserving military personnel than Andrew. I have the utmost respect for people in the military and, quite frankly, view them all as 'heroes', so I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth.

It could read, but doesn't and my comment stands, I fail to see how I have put words in your mouth, I interpreted your post in a manner you perhaps didn't mean, in much the same way that you interpret mine in a different manner to what was intended.
----------------
We are not going to agree on this, whether it is the age difference, the Anglo/American difference, expected standards difference or what, I don't know, but I'm off to start that petition to my MP, as you suggested!

 

[Elspeth]

If she is 'in training' as a royal representative, then surely the countries she is visiting to receive this training will look after her. No I am not suggesting removing the protection for the main players, but such lightweights as Beatrice and Eugenie do not need it, as evidenced by the protection unit themselves. IF a terrorist cell were to decide to kidnap one of them, does anyone think they would send one man, possibly two? Of course not, they would send five or six, armed men to snatch the girl, having shot the protection officers. The paparazzi only seem to harrass these girls when they are coming out of nightclubs or parties, act correctly and one or two ordinary policemen can intervene, as they do with any 'celeb'.

Well, if terrorists would send five or six armed men after someone like Eugenie, imagine what they'd send after Charles or the Queen, yet they seem to manage with one or two protection officers. At this stage of things, Beatrice and Eugenie are probably higher-value terrorist targets than the Duchess of Gloucester or Princess Alexandra, who a lot of younger people have never heard of.

 

[Skydragon]

Well, if terrorists would send five or six armed men after someone like Eugenie, imagine what they'd send after Charles or the Queen, yet they seem to manage with one or two protection officers. At this stage of things, Beatrice and Eugenie are probably higher-value terrorist targets than the Duchess of Gloucester or Princess Alexandra, who a lot of younger people have never heard of.

I was just trying to point out that they, like the Duchess of Gloucester and Alexandra are minimal targets, simple because they are not high profile royals. Mention Princess Beatrice or Princess Eugenie to a lot of the youngsters and they say 'who, what country are they from then'?.

People seem to imagine one or two terrorists would walk up to an unprotected B or E and ask them to get in the van. IF they were considered high profile, unless they have a number of protection officers at their side, it would take very little effort to grab them. Nobody argues with an Uzi or Glock.

People are really struggling to make ends meet, with many now in negative equity and it is these people who begin to question the 'right' of the royals to rub their noses in it by paying for a holiday for the daughter and passing it off as royal training. These are the very people that could in future years vote to end any rights for them at all. You can hear the rumblings when they are sitting in the waiting area and glance at The Mail, Mirror or Express. It is bad enough that C&C have gone on a royal jaunt at this time, (yes I know it isn't a jaunt and yes I know it was arranged aeons ago), but to read about 'Royal Training', really sets them off.