Who Was The First English Queen?


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
:previous: Seems to me like a jolly good reason to delay it.

I am an atheist, and a fervent believer in separation of Church from State.

For me it's bad enough that my Head of State is a foreigner, but to know that she believes she is entitled to be in that position, and to be the Queen of Great Britain and all the extra bits, merely because one of her ancestors was a more successful warrior - translation: bully - than anyone else in the game at the time, and that therefore she has the right to be in that position because she has the approval of some higher being - an invisible friend, the very existence of which I deny - floors me.

Still better than a President.

They believe that they're entitled to be the Head of State just because one of his predecessors deposed a Royal House by a coupe.
 
Still better than a President.

They believe that they're entitled to be the Head of State just because one of his predecessors deposed a Royal House by a coupe.


Do you speak of your country?


LaRae
 
Still better than a President.

They believe that they're entitled to be the Head of State just because one of his predecessors deposed a Royal House by a coupe.

I thought - at least in the case of the USA - that a person became President because the majority of the people in the country who could be bothered to vote had decided that you would be the better person to represent them on the world stage.

I really do have a problem with the "accident of birth" option.
 
I think some countries have had presidents 'installed' after military coupe. Perhaps that is what B.E. is referring to?

In the U.S. it was an armed revolution by the people against the Crown (King George) and it's standing army/navy. There was a constitution developed and presidents are elected by, nowdays, a shamefully low voter turnout.


LaRae
 
I thought - at least in the case of the USA - that a person became President because the majority of the people in the country who could be bothered to vote had decided that you would be the better person to represent them on the world stage.

I really do have a problem with the "accident of birth" option.

I live in a Republic, and we have a Republic because of a coup d'état that deposed the best Head of State my country ever had.

After all the stability we had during the Monarchy, during the Republic Brazil had 2 dictatorships, 4 deposed Presidents, 12 states of emergency, 6 dissolutions of the Congress and 7 different Constitutions.

What I'll say for you is for all the citzens from the Commonwealth Realms and other Constitutional Monarchies of the world: Keep the Monarchy, it's certainly much better than a Republic.
 
Not all Republics are the same though B.E. It's worked for other countries.


LaRae
 
Do you speak of your country?


LaRae

I wish I was only speaking about one country.

The problem is not only in Brazil. I'm speaking about the Latin American countries, Portugal, Russia, China and many others.
 
This has gotten completely off topic.

The Queen believes that she is entitled to be the monarch because the British parliament continues to allow it. Parliament has, on more than one occasion, overthrown the monarch of the day - usually to replace him or her with another monarch, the next in line that is deemed acceptable. The Queen believes she is entitled to remain Head of State in Commonwealth realms because the individual realms have continued to allow her to remain monarch, and in some cases have even asked her to step into that role. There are a number of former realms that have chosen to abolish the monarchy, most of them doing so without issue. The British Empire as it was is now willing to let former colonies leave. If republican feelings are so strong in Australia then Australia should have a referendum on the issue. According to Wikipedia, a 2011 Morgan poll shows that 34% of those polled were pro-republic and 55% were pro-monarchy, so you might be stuck on the issue.

The issue of the relationship between the Queen and the church is, outside of England really, a moot point. The Queen has no religious position, however symbolic it may be, outside of England. I support the separation of church and state as well, but to condemn my monarch for being the titular head of a church in another country is rather ridiculous - especially given as that connection has existed for some 500 years and predates the idea of a separation between church and state.

As to wether or not a constitutional monarchy is the best form of democracy or not, I think that really just depends on the people being governed. Democracy can, and had, failed in both it's republican and monarchist forms. Republics are tricky things to establish and often result in dictatorships, particularly when the republic is established via a military coup in the first place. At the same time, monarchies are equally prone to losing that constitutional aspect and becoming absolute - look at the history of the Greek monarchy.
 
I think some countries have had presidents 'installed' after military coupe. Perhaps that is what B.E. is referring to?

In the U.S. it was an armed revolution by the people against the Crown (King George) and it's standing army/navy. There was a constitution developed and presidents are elected by, nowdays, a shamefully low voter turnout.


LaRae

Even after the revolution monarchy was not completely off the table. As I understand it there was talk of offering Washington the Crown. Probably lucky he had no children and thus could not establish a dynasty.
 
Ish, I like that, that the Queen reigns because the parliament asks her to. This could be compared to the situation in medieval Scotland, where the kings were elected by the parliaments of the landed gentry--the common people had no input, from what I read. In England today, supposedly the parliaments are elected by the common people, so therefore the Queen reigns by permission of the people. We all know, of course, that selfish interest governs political bodies in all centuries, and parliament is no more to be trusted than imposition of rule by warfare, but at least the situation is coherent with a moral outline of republicanism.
My Scots ancestors removed from England to Scotland at the behest of David I of Scotland, along with others who supported Queen Matilda over King Stephen. For this reason alone I would be pleased with the naming of the heir Matilda, if it is a girl. Perhaps David would be an equally interesting name for an heir...but that's argued endlessly on another thread.
 
Even after the revolution monarchy was not completely off the table. As I understand it there was talk of offering Washington the Crown. Probably lucky he had no children and thus could not establish a dynasty.


As I understand it, it was offered to Washington who refused it. The Constitution is a great document, would be wonderful if the government actually continued to abide by it.


LaRae
 
This retroactivity is also seen in the Jacobite succession, with the first Jacobite pretender sty losing himself as James III and the current pretender being called Francis II, assuming that each individual in that line between the two men had a legitimate reign despite never having actually ruled. We also see it in the House of Napoleon - Napoleon III was so numbered, despite Napoleon II never ruling.

Consequently, if the Cambridge baby were to be named Matilda or Jane and then use the regnal number II then their predecessor would have her reign confirmed.

No-one really refers to Bonnie Prince Charlie as Charles III so it's not that relevant, but Prince Charles will be Charles III, assuming he's abandoned the idea of calling himself George VII.

History books always refer to Jane as "Lady Jane Grey", which is totally inaccurate - even if you don't want to call her "Queen Jane", she should really be referred to by her married name of Lady Jane Dudley, which I think was how she was referred to during her trial.

The parallel's not usually drawn because the Tudor claim to the throne was so tenuous, but in some ways Henry VII was in the same position as Henry II - his claim came through his mother, and she was still alive when he became king.
 
Ish, I like that, that the Queen reigns because the parliament asks her to. This could be compared to the situation in medieval Scotland, where the kings were elected by the parliaments of the landed gentry--the common people had no input, from what I read. In England today, supposedly the parliaments are elected by the common people, so therefore the Queen reigns by permission of the people. We all know, of course, that selfish interest governs political bodies in all centuries, and parliament is no more to be trusted than imposition of rule by warfare, but at least the situation is coherent with a moral outline of republicanism.
My Scots ancestors removed from England to Scotland at the behest of David I of Scotland, along with others who supported Queen Matilda over King Stephen. For this reason alone I would be pleased with the naming of the heir Matilda, if it is a girl. Perhaps David would be an equally interesting name for an heir...but that's argued endlessly on another thread.

The English monarch does rule by the permission of Parliament - we've seen this increasingly in British history since the reign of Charles I - the whole Civil War can be seen as a fight between Parliamentarians and Royalists over who ruled with the permission of the other, and the Royalists lost. The government deposed Charles I, the government invited Charles II to be king, then deposed James II and invited William and Mary to be co-monarchs. The Hanovers came to power because the government selected them as the best heirs, the Abdication Crisis happened because the government did not want Edward VIII's chosen spouse.

The early medieval Scottish and Anglo-Saxon practice of having a collective of lords who advised the king and had the power to select or depose of the king is a big part of why the English/British parliament has this power while other European governments historically haven't. Instead of relying on pure primogeniture they looked at the royal house and at times selected the best for the role. It's how Alfred the Great became king despite the fact that his elder brother (who was king before him) had sons.

We can argue that this is what happened with Matilda. While the court had sworn to uphold her as the heir of Henry I, when he actually died and Stephen appeared to claim the throne they went with it. Matilda eventually fought back, and for a brief period in 1141 she ruled. As for the support she received from David I of Scotland, it makes a lot of sense. David's sister, Matilda of Scotland, was Matilda's mother. David had enjoyed the power and status in England that came from being the King's brother-in-law, he likely wanted to continue it by being the Queen's uncle (similarly, Leopoldo I of Belgium tried to have that kind of influence over his niece, Queen Victoria).

Jane's brief rule can be seen as an attempt to disrupt the legal succession by the permission of the government - it only fails because she didn't have the huge support that Mary gathered. It almost makes you wonder if Elizabeth had attempted to usurp her sister in Jane's place, would she have gathered more support, or would she have ended up executed instead? From the perspective of Mary's Catholic monarchy, executing Elizabeth would have been advantageous - she could have then appointed Mary of Scots as her heir.

No-one really refers to Bonnie Prince Charlie as Charles III so it's not that relevant, but Prince Charles will be Charles III, assuming he's abandoned the idea of calling himself George VII.

Jacobites refer to him as Charles III, much like how they refer to the current heir, Franz, Duke of Bavaria, as Francis II - if a Jacobite revolution took place and Franz was put on the British (or an independent Scottish or Irish) throne, that would be his numbering due to the Jacobite line.

The Jacobite line doesn't pertain to the Windsor line, however. Charles will be Charles III (if he goes with that) because the two lines have been diverted since the Glorious Revolution.

History books always refer to Jane as "Lady Jane Grey", which is totally inaccurate - even if you don't want to call her "Queen Jane", she should really be referred to by her married name of Lady Jane Dudley, which I think was how she was referred to during her trial.

It's not inaccurate to call her Lady Jane Grey. Historically, women are often referred to by their maiden names (not universally so, but often). Hence why we remember Queen Mary as Mary of Teck, or her mother-in-law as Alexandra of Denmark. I don't know if she was referred to as Grey or Dudley in her trial, but I do know that in Fox's Book of Martyrs (first published 10 years after Jane's execution) refers to her as Lady Jane Grey.

The parallel's not usually drawn because the Tudor claim to the throne was so tenuous, but in some ways Henry VII was in the same position as Henry II - his claim came through his mother, and she was still alive when he became king.

The Tudor claim to the throne was not actually tenuous. Henry VII was descended from the John of Gaunt through the Beaufort line. It's a tenuous claim in itself, yes, except for the fact that Henry was out forth as a possible Lancaster heir during the reign of Henry VI, and was the most senior (in terms of descent) man in the Beaufort/Lancaster line following the decimation of the Lancasters in Edward IV's second reign. Henry VII's claim was then solidified through the act of conquest, and further solidified through marrying Elizabeth of York, the eldest daughter (and remaining heir) of Edward IV - all acts that are comparable to the rise of Henry I when you think of it.

That Henry VII inherited while his mother was alive is seen as a sign of the idea that women couldn't inherit. This is what plagued Matilda's life - she was supposed to inherit, the Barons swore during her father's life that she would inherit, but when push came to shove they chose to instead support the closest male claimant - Stephen, who also came to the throne while his mother, Adela of Normandy, the eldest daughter of William I, was still alive. The idea here is that women could not inherit the throne - and they did not until Mary successfully inherited it.

In the case of Matilda, however, she didn't simply inherit the throne - she also briefly succeeded in seizing it. My point initially is that while Matilda undeniably held the throne for 7 months, longer than Edward V, her reign is disputed as being such, while his reign is not. My reasoning is that since we haven't had a Matilda II, we can't say for certain that we've had a Matilda I (or, since no one since then has been Matilda I, we can't say Matilda wasn't the first). We donn't dispute Edward V's claim because when Edward Tudor came to the throne it was as Edward VI, thus retroactively confirming the short reign of Edward V as valid.
 
Mary I was the first Queen as she was the first that was crowned
 
Mary I was the first Queen as she was the first that was crowned



Edward VIII wasn't crowned, yet we don't debate whether he was King.

Neither was Edward V for that matter - still don't debate whether or not he was King.
 
Queens Regnant of England

Mary I
ELizabeth
Mary II
Anne until 1707 when she became Queen of GB and Ireland
 
No Jane or Matilda?
 
Edward VIII wasn't crowned, yet we don't debate whether he was King.

Neither was Edward V for that matter - still don't debate whether or not he was King.

At the time of Matilda their was a crownd Monarch Stephen. With Edward VIII and Edward V the king before them was dead this was not the case with Matilda, Stephen was still alive.
 
But why wouldn't Jane count?
She was known as The Nine-Days Queen.
 
So was Matilda, but she is listed in reputable lists as a monarch of England. Her son Henry was accepted as heir by Stephen. Matilda gave up her own claim eventually, but surely she must be regarded as the first Queen.
 
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But no one really wanted Jane as queen. She was just put forward by her ambitious relatives and only "reigned for 9 days". Matilda was the kings daughter, had been accepted by many as his heir and was then challenged by Stephen.
I think that even allowing for her being a woman, her claim was better than his...but unfortunatnely civil war resulted. But Jane's queenship was short lived, she herself didn't want to be put forward, and was disputed by a lot of people even those who did't like Mary's Catholicism.
SO I wouldn't feel thtat she counted as a queen in the way that Matilda did
 
Given that the Sovereign never dies, that both Matilda and Jane were the designated heirs of their predecessors and that both were recognised as legitimate heirs by the powers of the day (Henry's nobles - including Stephen! - and the Privy Council of Edward VI), I think there is a strong legal case that both were de jure Queens in 1135 and 1553 respectively, when Henry I and Edward VI closed their eyes for the last time.


In the case of Matilda, she was not really de facto Queen at that point as in her absence, Stephen moved quickly and did what what necessary to have himself proclaimed King, but for much of 1141, when she controlled the treasury, the territory and Stephen was her prisoner, and the clergy recognised her as "Lady of the English/England", she was de facto Queen.

Jane was very briefly de facto as well as de jure Queen, albeit reluctantly, in the days following Edward's death, until the proclamation of Mary I.

For me they both count, although whether or not they are seen as legitimate Queens doesn't change the fact that their "reigns" were fleeting.

In Jane's case, Mary I's Privy Council and Parliament went through the necessary steps to nullify Jane's reign and thereby ensure her conviction as a usurper and a traitor. I don't know whether, in Henry II's reign, his mother was considered to have been a sovereign or not but I suspect that it would have been deliberately downplayed as Matilda lived on.
 
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