The Plantagenets (1154-1399)


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Henry VI (1421-1471) and Margaret of Anjou (1430-1482)

Henry VI,Margaret of Anjou and Children.

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The miracle of Henry VI

The miracle of Henry VI | History Extra
 
Myths about Margaret of Anjou​

One of King Edward IV's priorities in his early years on the throne was to repay the debts owed by the Crown to the merchants and Italian banks. By the end of his reign he had repaid debts totaling 97,000 pounds.

On October 16, 1460 Prince Edward, Duke of York (future King Edward IV) formally claimed the crown of England by right of inheritance. He then submitted to the Lords in Parliament a genealogy showing his descent from King Henry III.
Why had Edward not put forward his claim before?

During a violent storm at sea on his return from the Crusades, Prince Edward, later King Edward I of England, vowed that on his return he would found an abbey in the county of Cheshire, of which he was the Royal Earl. The abbey was founded in 1277 in what Edward declared to be Vale Royal.

In March 1296 King Edward I led an army of 25,000 men north to Berwick. Infuriated by Scotland's alliance with France in 1295, Edward now wanted to conquer rather than just control Scotland. :bang::bang:

King Henry V had an extensive library. He enjoyed books on history, theology and hunting, as well as the works of Chaucer, Hoccleve, and Lydgate.

During King Edward IV's reign, The Black Book of the Household was drawn up. The book described the rights and duties of all members of the royal household. King Edward had the book compiled so economies would be imposed and wastefulness would be curbed.

Eleanor of Castile tried to make her lodgings cheerful with colorful candles, Venetian glass, ivory mirrors, and brightly painted walls.
 
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The country had a King who was accepted as the son of the previous king. Any claim by someone else was going to open a can of worms over basically arguing that Henry IV had usurped the throne in 1399. While Henry VI appeared to be in control there was no point but when he went a bit strange it seemed a good idea - to get rid of an unsatisfactory king.

Edward didn't see a reason for making his claim until it was clear that Henry wasn't up to the job particularly as this claim sets off the most ferocious part f the Wars of the Roses.
 
CyrilVladisla said:
On October 16, 1460 Prince Edward, Duke of York (future King Edward IV) formally claimed the crown of England by right of inheritance. He then submitted to the Lords in Parliament a genealogy showing his descent from King Henry III.
Why had Edward not put forward his claim before?
Click to expand...

His claim was through Edward III. Yes, he was descended from Henry III, but further back. Henry IV usurped the throne from his cousin Richard II. Richard was grandson of Edward III by his son the Black Prince. Henry was John Gaunt's son, 3rd child of Edward.

Edward IV didn't lay claim earlier as his claim was weaker. Edward III had 9 kids reach adulthood. Edward, Isabelle, Joan, Lionel and John were his eldest. His sixth child to live Edmund was Duke of York. Edmund's youngest son Richard was grandfather of Edward IV. Simply put, the male line of the 5th child (usurper or not) had a better claim than the 6th child. He got a small boost as his mother Cecily was a granddaughter of Gaunt but female line had a weaker claim.

The Yorks made their claim through the female line. John and Edmund's older brother Lionel only had 1 child,Philipa. Her granddaughter Anne married Richard of York, Edmund's son, uniting the 2 lines. But a senior male line, Gaunt, had a stronger claim.

As long as Henry VI was sane, his claim was stronger. Once he was mad, Edward IV convinced the court to ignore Henry's son and move on.

That is how we get the Tudor claim. Henry's mother was descended from John Gaunt, her father was John's grandson. If Henry VI and his son were unable to reign, the Gaunts still had best claim. Her great-grandfather was Henry IV's younger brother. By marrying the York heir, Henry VII united Lionel, John and Edmund's lines.

They got more into eliminating rivals, Henry VIII certainly. The Poles a prime example.Margaret Pole was the niece of Edward IV by his brother George. Her and her eldest son were beheaded and another exiled. Early death spared Arthur. Reginald was an exiled priest, returned to favor under Mary I. A grandson also died in the tower. Other family like Edward Neville were as well.
 
Countessmeout said:
His claim was through Edward III. Yes, he was descended from Henry III, but further back. Henry IV usurped the throne from his cousin Richard II. Richard was grandson of Edward III by his son the Black Prince. Henry was John Gaunt's son, 3rd child of Edward.

Edward IV didn't lay claim earlier as his claim was weaker. Edward III had 9 kids reach adulthood. Edward, Isabelle, Joan, Lionel and John were his eldest. His sixth child to live Edmund was Duke of York. Edmund's youngest son Richard was grandfather of Edward IV. Simply put, the male line of the 5th child (usurper or not) had a better claim than the 6th child. He got a small boost as his mother Cecily was a granddaughter of Gaunt but female line had a weaker claim.

The Yorks made their claim through the female line. John and Edmund's older brother Lionel only had 1 child,Philipa. Her granddaughter Anne married Richard of York, Edmund's son, uniting the 2 lines. But a senior male line, Gaunt, had a stronger claim.

As long as Henry VI was sane, his claim was stronger. Once he was mad, Edward IV convinced the court to ignore Henry's son and move on.

That is how we get the Tudor claim. Henry's mother was descended from John Gaunt, her father was John's grandson. If Henry VI and his son were unable to reign, the Gaunts still had best claim. Her great-grandfather was Henry IV's younger brother. By marrying the York heir, Henry VII united Lionel, John and Edmund's lines.

They got more into eliminating rivals, Henry VIII certainly. The Poles a prime example.Margaret Pole was the niece of Edward IV by his brother George. Her and her eldest son were beheaded and another exiled. Early death spared Arthur. Reginald was an exiled priest, returned to favor under Mary I. A grandson also died in the tower. Other family like Edward Neville were as well.
Click to expand...


You're mixing things up a bit here...

Edward III had 5 sons who survived into adulthood; Edward, the Black Prince, Lionel of Antwerp, John of Gaunt, Edmund of Langley, and Thomas of Woodstock.

Edward had one child, Richard II. Lionel (the Duke of Clarence) had 1 daughter, Philippa. John (the Duke of Lancaster) had a number of children, including Henry IV and John Beaufort. Edmund (the Duke of York) had a few children including Richard, Earl of Cambridge. Thomas (the Duke of Gloucester) had 1 son, Humphrey.

Henry IV usurped the throne of Richard II, bypassing the descendants of Lionel - which, while Lionel only had a daughter, she had sons, and there was precedent that grandsons could inherit through their mothers - that's how Henry II inherited. But Philippa's son was young, and so it was easy for Henry IV to skip past him.

Go forward a few decades, and Henry IV's grandson was on the throne (Henry VI) and mentally unstable. Well, now Philippa's son (Roger) had a daughter (Anne), who's son (Richard) would have been the senior claimaint through Lionel's line. This Richard was the Duke of York, and also the senior claimant through Edmund's line, as his father was Richard, Earl of Cambridge.

Edward IV was the son of Richard, and when his father (who did claim the throne before him) died, he claimed the throne in turn. Richard was actually killed in a battle against the King's forces.
 
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I am reading "The Plantagenets" by Dan Jones. Several times in the book it uses the phrase "paid homage to". For example, in describing how Jonn had betrayed his brother, King Richard, during Richard's imprisonment, it says he "paid homage to" King Philip II of France for his brother's Continental lands. What does "paid homage to" mean in this book? I know it means to pay respect to, but it seems to have a different meaning in this book.
 
"Paid homage to" in this respect means that the King of France was the overlord of the lands so, King John had to bend the knee and acknowledge that King Philip was his overlord for the continental lands. Nobles in Britain did the same thing when paying homage to the English king for their lands. Basically saying I acknowledge that I have these lands thanks to you and I thank you for that honor.
 
The Angevin's were Dukes of Normandy and paid homage or tribute to the French king for the lands they held in France.
 
I have always been interested in British Royalty but not prior to King George III. However, I had seen the name "Plantagenet" on the British Royal forum several times. When the daughter of a co-worker offered to let me read her book by Dan Jones, "The Plantagenets", I though it would be interesting because I had wondered who they were. Well, I can't get enough of this book!!! It is so interesting!! Now I want to keep reading about these earlier royal families of Britain. Could anyone tell me the all the families who came before and all the families after the Plantagenets and recommend some books on them? I know the Normans came before the Plantagenets and the Tudors came after (I think). I plan to read the next book by Dan Jones on the fall of the Plantagenets and the rise of the Tudors. Also, there were the minor families Blois and Anjou before the Plantagenets, so I guess I am interested in the major ruling families. However, I would appreciate any suggestions anyone could give me. Thanks.
 
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duchessrachel-I know exactly how you feel regarding your new found interest in dynasties prior to George III.



The Plantagenets are one of my interests as well. When my family and I visited London in 2017, I was on the hunt for Plantagenet related sites ie: Tower of London, St George's Chapel, Westminster Abbey etc..
One little thrill was finding Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's grave at St. George's Chapel.?
 
duchessrachel said:
I have always been interested in British Royalty but not prior to King George III. However, I had seen the name "Plantagenet" on the British Royal forum several times. When the daughter of a co-worker offered to let me read her book by Dan Jones, "The Plantagenets", I though it would be interesting because I had wondered who they were. Well, I can't get enough of this book!!! It is so interesting!! Now I want to keep reading about these earlier royal families of Britain. Could anyone tell me the all the families who came before and all the families after the Plantagenets and recommend some books on them? I know the Normans came before the Plantagenets and the Tudors came after (I think). I plan to read the next book by Dan Jones on the fall of the Plantagenets and the rise of the Tudors. Also, there were the minor families Blois and Anjou before the Plantagenets, so I guess I am interested in the major ruling families. However, I would appreciate any suggestions anyone could give me. Thanks.
Click to expand...

The Counts of Blois were related to both the French & English royal houses via Princess Alix de France ,daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and her 1st husband Louis VIII of France.
Alix married Theobald V, Count of Blois in 1164.

Henry II of Englands father was Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou ,Touraine, and Maine all of which Henry acquired following his fathers death in 1151.

Northern France 1160
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That is awesome! I would love to tour England.
TLLK said:
duchessrachel-I know exactly how you feel regarding your new found interest in dynasties prior to George III.



The Plantagenets are one of my interests as well. When my family and I visited London in 2017, I was on the hunt for Plantagenet related sites ie: Tower of London, St George's Chapel, Westminster Abbey etc..
One little thrill was finding Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's grave at St. George's Chapel.?
Click to expand...
 
An Ard Ri said:
The Counts of Blois were related to both the French & English royal houses via Princess Alix de France ,daughter of Eleanor of Aquitaine and her 1st husband Louis VIII of France.
Alix married Theobald V, Count of Blois in 1164.

Henry II of Englands father was Geoffrey Plantagenet, Count of Anjou ,Touraine, and Maine all of which Henry acquired following his fathers death in 1151.

Northern France 1160
543px-North_West_France_1150.png


​
Click to expand...

Thanks you.
 
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