Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence, eldest son of Edward VII (1864-1892)

[Madame Royale]

Oh I see what you're saying. Things always seem simplified when those subject of the conversation are deceased..haha.​

I would say that Sarah is descended of the Queen, yes. But I would make a note of mentioning through way of her mother who consequently was, the Queen's sister. I think if you perhaps make sure to clarify, then it all makes sense but certainly the direct and common ancestors would be Queen Elizabeth the Queen Mother and George VI.​

Going back to Albert Victor and Elizabeth, the common ancestors would be Alexandra and Edward.​

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Madame Royale's post #54 is brilliant, and thank you, dear Warren, for the pictures. Eddy looked very much like his mother, I think. He has a handsome fellow and dressed beautifully, but you can see his solemn or bored disposition.

Polly, I didn't mean to imply any conspiracies. I just didn't know if I remembered correctly about where he died. You said at one point he convalesced at Osbourne. It was also a private royal residence at that time, I think, like Sandringham, but with the added bonus of being at the sea. Sea air is good for the convalescence, and Victorians, as did Georgians, appreciated that highly. So I just wondered if he was moved to Sandringham for any known reason. Perhaps it was merely because Sandringham was the home of his parents, and his mother wanted him "at home" with her. Osbourne was Queen Victoria's dear home, a place chosen and designed by her dear Albert, and for some reason Prince Albert Edward (Edward VII) never liked it. When he became King, I believed he donated Osbourne for use by the Royal Navy; for awhile, I think, it was used for veterans as a place to convalesce (like a sanitorium, I think?) and then it was used for training cadets.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Hmm..., do you use descendant in English even if there is no direct bloodline? Can someone have descendents who died without leaving issue? It's a language queston for me, so I'm thankful to anybody who could point me to a discussion about the word and his correct meaning.Thank you!

I've seen the "descendent" word used loosely and if the writer wishes to clarify that the descendent is from a direct line they generally say "direct descendent". I think however that you and Madame Royale are both correct in your own ways. I tend to be uncomfortable, though, with calling Her (present) Majesty a descendent of Albert Victor, simply because it's not in direct line, and it therefore confuses me. I would say (this is just my preference) that Her Majesty and Albert Victor are both descendents of Queen Alexandra and King Edward VII. Albert Victor of course has no direct descendents...... HM is a descendent of his brother, but to my (confused) mind that doesn't make HM a descendent of AV....

 

[Warren]

Madame Royale may excuse me for saying so, but it must be a "Melbourne thing". Up here in Sydney, if I can make a generalisation, Queen Elizabeth would not be described as a 'descendant' of the Duke of Clarence as this would give the mistaken impression that she was in direct line of descent from him.

 

[Madame Royale]

A Melbourne thing? Oh please, Warren...lol.

Directly? No

Amongst his familial descendants? Yes

Perhaps I should have better delayed my reasoning, but if one clarifies the connection then yes, I believe it to hold substance.

A direct line of issue? No, and I've made that point most emphatically.

Elizabeth II is not a direct descendant of Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence...just so as to discourage any futher misunderstanding

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Well, now that the matter of descent is satisfactorily resolved, how about some more pictures?

Brigitte's Worldroots website has a nice handful of pictures of HRH Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale, KG. See here

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Here are other public domain pictures which I found on Corbis. #2 shows The Princess of Wales with baby George on her lap and "Eddy" standing beside them.

 

[lilibet80]

Eddy moved to Sandringham

Why then was Eddy moved to Sandringham for the final illness of his life? Sandringham is where he died, right?

I don't believe he was moved to Sandringham. The family was there for Christmas and he became ill while staying there.

 

[loali2]

The Duke and Duchess of Teck had come with their daughter May to Sandringham on Jan 4th for Eddy's birthday celebrations. May and Eddy both were there when he died on the 14th.

Sandringham was not well heated and probably helped to worsen Eddy's cold which developed into the pneumonia.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

Yeah, I bet you are right, Lilibet.

Here is The Peerage entry for Prince Albert Victor Christian Edward, Duke of Clarence and Avondale, KG, KP, etc. He had many foreign orders and honorary degrees.
http://www.thepeerage.com/p10066.htm#i100660

He died at Sandringham on 14 January 1892, age 28, from pneumonia, as the official story goes. I suppose more skeptical reports claim he died from syphilis (sp?) and one of the conspiratorial theories claims he died from a morphine overdose that was forcefully administered to him (to remove him from the Succession, as the theory goes). In any case, he was buried at Windsor six days after his death.

There is another iffy claim made about The Duke of Clarence. It claims that he had an illegitimate son, which I suspect is probably true, but obviously it's neither here nor there, and it is all supposition. In any case, The London Times printed an article in November 2005, written by Peter Day and Jon Ungoed-Thomas, entitled, "Royal cover-up of illegitimate son revealed." LINK

 

[loali2]

It is also widely circulated that Eddy had a daughter named Alice with a women named Annie Cook in 1885. According to Alice's son, Joseph Sickert (whose father was the artist Walter Sickert) Eddy and Annie had been secretly married by the time of Alice's birth.

Sickert's story is more than a little hard to believe. It also claims that the Ripper Murders were an attempt to cover up this marriage.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

What's the deal, Sickert's son claiming to be Eddy's son?! Weird! I was just going to post this: List of Suspects in the Jack the Ripper Case which obviously includes Eddy, and Sickert. Personally, I am a strong believer that Jack the Ripper was Sickert, but who knows? I don't think it's possible that it was Eddy, in any case. Frankly, I don't think he was intelligent enough to pull off the most elusive murder mystery of modern British history. But on that list, which apparently just includes the top suspects in a list of some 175, there is no mention of the royal doctor guy who was suspected seriously. I am not convinced by the "doctor" theory, but apparently some people are, because it was the doctor theory that made the movie, From Hell.

 

[Furienna]

I just have to ask... Why do you call him Eddy, when his name was Albert Victor?

 

[cmkrcwi]

Incidentally, Pope-Hennessy’s biography of Queen Mary is an excellent one which I can recommend to anyone wishing to learn more about this admirable woman. As my copy is my mother’s, you may have to buy it second hand.

I heartily concur with this. I've read it several times - the first when I was a very young teenager and it's a wonderful book.

By the way, wasn't another reason for May's inability to "catch a husband" the fact that her father came from a morganatic marriage?

 

[Elspeth]

That's indeed why the rulers of the minor German principalities didn't consider her good enough for their heirs. Queen Victoria wasn't quite such a snob; she obviously considered the character of the Princess to be more important.

And, yes, the Pope-Hennessy book is excellent. I read it years ago, and I remember thinking at the time that Queen Mary seemed to be such a lonely person.

 

[loali2]

I just have to ask... Why do you call him Eddy, when his name was Albert Victor?

Albert Victor Christian EDWARD.
The first two of his given names being of obvious origin and insisted upon by his grandmother, Christian for his grandfather Christian IX of Denmark, and Edward for his great-grandfather Prince Edward, Duke of Kent (Queen Victoria's father).
He was only known officially as Albert Victor.

Had he become King, he would certainly have ruled as Edward VIII.

 

[loali2]

What's the deal, Sickert's son claiming to be Eddy's son?! Weird! I was just going to post this: List of Suspects in the Jack the Ripper Case which obviously includes Eddy, and Sickert. Personally, I am a strong believer that Jack the Ripper was Sickert, but who knows? I don't think it's possible that it was Eddy, in any case. Frankly, I don't think he was intelligent enough to pull off the most elusive murder mystery of modern British history. But on that list, which apparently just includes the top suspects in a list of some 175, there is no mention of the royal doctor guy who was suspected seriously. I am not convinced by the "doctor" theory, but apparently some people are, because it was the doctor theory that made the movie, From Hell.

Well Eddy would have been Joseph Sickert's grandfather not father.

Jack the Ripper was certainly not Prince Eddy nor was he involved in any way. The claims that Eddy was tied to the crimes have only come out in the past few decades. He was never implicated at the time of the crimes or even in the years following 1888.

 

[lilibet80]

Doctor theory

It is also widely circulated that Eddy had a daughter named Alice with a women named Annie Cook in 1885. According to Alice's son, Joseph Sickert (whose father was the artist Walter Sickert) Eddy and Annie had been secretly married by the time of Alice's birth.

Sickert's story is more than a little hard to believe. It also claims that the Ripper Murders were an attempt to cover up this marriage.

Eddy was madly in love with a French Catholic Princess Helene, he died calling her name. I believe the doctor theory arose because of the surgical precision with which the organs were excised from the bodies of the victims.

 

[loali2]

Yes.

Eddy had fallen in love with Princess Helene d'Orleans in 1890, daughter of the Comte de Paris (Pretender to the French throne), great grand daughter of King Louis Phillippe, and younger sister to Queen Amelie of Portugal.

They had both wanted to marry one another very much. While Queen Victoria eventually gave them her blessing, Helene's father would not hear of it. Eddy's mother and sisters were also in great favor of the marriage but they would need permission from Helene's father and he rufused to allow it.

 

[loali2]

That's indeed why the rulers of the minor German principalities didn't consider her good enough for their heirs. Queen Victoria wasn't quite such a snob; she obviously considered the character of the Princess to be more important.

And, yes, the Pope-Hennessy book is excellent. I read it years ago, and I remember thinking at the time that Queen Mary seemed to be such a lonely person.

May and the Tecks were also not very wealthy, as Royal standards went. Plus Eddy was not really seen as being much of a catch himself, in spite of being heir apparent. I love the guy...but lets face it, he had some problems.

May was still a great grandchild of King George III and Queen Victoria had always liked May's mother, Mary Adelaide (her own 1st cousin), and this contributed to the Queen's favor of her. Also she did seem like she would one day make a perfect Queen, and she certainly did.

May had not been the first choice of anyone though. Victoria's first choice, and one Eddy himself was also very keen on, had been his !st cousin, Princess Alix of Hesse. Unfortunatly Alix had NO interest in marrying Eddy and the plan fizzled out.

Alix of course ended up marrying the new Tsar of Russia in 1894, Nicholas II, becoming the last Empress Alexandra Feodorovna.

 

[Royal Fan]

Who were his Godparents

 

[Elspeth]

Google is your friend. So is Wikipedia.

"His godparents were: Queen Victoria, Leopold I of Belgium, Christian IX of Denmark, the Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, the Crown Princess of Prussia, Prince Alfred, the Elector of Hesse and the Dowager Duchess of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg."


Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Polly]

I am surprised that my posts have been read as 'malicious' as I certainly am not maliciously predisposed towards the Royal Family, or how, indeed, one can be malicious towards someone who's been dead for about 115 years. As he has no direct descendants, my comments can hardly be thought to reflect adversely on anyone else.

To me, facts are facts, and after many years of research in one area or another, I'm now comfortable in believing something if provenance can be shown or sufficient evidence unearthed or if people's quotes can be verified. Often, if those whose opinions and views I value, concur, then I tend to be accepting of them. I am always alert, however, to the indisputable fact that even experts can and do disagree.

Nonetheless, I do not think that Eddy's death, unpleasant as it was, was anything other than a relief to many of his family. Nor do I need to be informed of the almost unfathomable grief that a mother suffers at the death of a child.

I was reminded, too, of the awfulness of his future nephew, little Prince John's lonely and tragic life. I can imagine nothing more painful and cruel than Johnny's being ripped from his family and kept in isolation on the Sandringham estate with his nurse and servants until he died. Very sick children, more than anything, want and need their mothers. Prince John, was, simply an embarrassment to the monarchy and his family and bundled right out of sight. He rarely saw his parents, poor little man, and died quite alone. However, if you look him up on Wikipedia, you will learn how sunny his disposition was and how much he enjoyed his very pleasant life of exile and how devoted his family was to him. I think it a masterpiece of spin, but his is another story.

In each their own way, Eddy's and little John's stories are two of the reasons why I value and like our sensitive and caring Prince Charles so very much. I'm often critical of him, too, though I'd strenuously contest any view that I was ever maliciously disposed towards him.

 

[cmkrcwi]

To be fair though, it's only been fairly recently that families have been encouraged to keep their physically and/or mentally challenged children with them and not put them in institutions. By our standards, what the Royals did with Prince John is somewhat cruel, but I imagine back then that's what happened.

Didn't the Queen Mother have a couple of mentally challenged nieces who were discovered to be living in a home for the disabled even though they were officially listed as deceased by the Bowes-Lyon family? And the actor Michael Caine discovered a few years ago he had an older brother who was mentally challenged and put into a mental institution before Caine was born.

 

[Polly]

Yes, that's absolutely right about 'problem' family members being hidden away in the past.

The difference, I think, in this case is that Prince John's brothers knew him well, and apparently, missed him very much. In a recent dramatization of his young life, it was claimed that David (Edward VIII) wanted his brother home with them all. Indeed, when he, David, Duke of Windsor died, young John's photos were found amongst his belongings.

In the instance of the Queen Mother's cousins (I think that they were), Her Majesty had no idea that they existed! Nor, for that matter, did Sir Michael know about his brother!

In all this, I do have a great deal of sympathy for Queen Mary.

 

[lilibet80]

I believe the Queen Mother did know about her two cousins. She was very friendly with her brother John's other children and it is highly unlikely that a new baby could be born into that family with others not being aware of it as they were very close. The two girls were missing a vital nerve in their brains which was a genetic defect inherited from their mother's family. John and Fenella's other children were normal, one of whom, Anne, (mother of Lord Lichfield) married as her second husband a Prince of Denmark. The two girls were kept at home for as long as possible, but when they began to be a danger to themselves and others they were sent to live in a hospital where they could be cared for and kept out of harm's way.

As far as Prince John, I have very little sympathy for either Queen Mary or King George as pertains to John, or indeed any of their children. They were disastrous parents, and rarely saw Prince John. He was in the care of his nanny, Lala Bill at all times. Prince George was the closest in age to him and used to play with him, and the others only saw him occasionally, but they were much older. Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, described John as "very droll". He once commented after Queen Mary kissed King George, "She kissed Papa, ugly old man!"

 

[Alexandra RI]

Albert Victor and May

No pics on this page, so here's two more.
(copyright expired, Public Domain)

Duke of Clarence
1 formal shot
2 with Princess May of Teck

I have never seen that second photograph. It is very nice. I think part of AV's problem was that he was somewhat deaf. That could account for his lack of learning. I wish there was film of him not just still photographs. This is a bit off topic but, does anyone know if there exists a recording of Edward VII's voice? There are some sound recordings from that time period (1901-1910). Thanks.

 

[Polly]

I have never seen that second photograph. It is very nice. I think part of AV's problem was that he was somewhat deaf. That could account for his lack of learning.

His mother, Princess Alexandra, was profoundly deaf. There has never been any suggestion that she was uneducated, ignorant, or unintelligent. She had been beautifully raised by enlightened and compassionate parents, and it showed!

 

[Polly]

As far as Prince John, I have very little sympathy for either Queen Mary or King George as pertains to John, or indeed any of their children.

I agree, in sum. However, Queen Mary was, above all, a singularly devoted wife, and truly believed that her duty was to her husband, the King. If she put her loyalty to him before her obligations to her children, why! who are we to cavil, at this very late stage? Historically, that is indeed how the world was: husband first!

Contemplating the difficulties of the Windsor's lives, I grieve, especially, for the late George VI ,as I know that his was a difficult and painful young life and that his parents caused it. But, I am also encouraged that the current reign has exemplified all that is humane and forbearing, allowing children, and the children of children, to celebrate being their own selves. This wouldn't have been possible or even conceivable, earlier.

It's actually one of Her Majesty's greatest accomplishments. I hope that, one day, others will appreciate just how remarkable and special this Queen has been. I think her a bastion of understanding and tolerance which most certainly exempflies a warm and human predisposition

 

[loali2]

His mother, Princess Alexandra, was profoundly deaf. There has never been any suggestion that she was uneducated, ignorant, or unintelligent. She had been beautifully raised by enlightened and compassionate parents, and it showed!

ABSOLUTLY beautifully stated.