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  #1041  
Old 11-29-2018, 05:40 PM
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Was Madeleine de Bourbon the daughter of the Duc de Vendome?
Yes she was the daughter of Charles, Duke of Vendôme and Françoise d'Alençon
,one of their sons,Antoine de Bourbon married Jeanne d'Albret future queen of Navarre.
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  #1042  
Old 11-29-2018, 09:21 PM
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I have a BBC version ofHenry& Wives on today in the background and even all these centuries later, have to admit to to sympathy for poor Katherine Howard above all the others. Foolish she was, no doubt...but she was engineered into that marriage by many powerful men for their own uses, without any of the knowledge, maturity or intelligence to handle it. And looking around at the teenage girls I know now, I cringe to think of any of them taking on such a role and likely not doing much better.

I know Anne is thought to be guilty, while Katherine clearly wasn’t, yet I still feel worse for Katherine somehow. Anne at least was a mature woman and had not always behaved well or kindly, especially to Catherine A. Or Mary, and she did say some foolish things. Granted, her death was a set-up and she did not deserve execution. Yet poor foolish silly Katherine...at least as she has come down to us...I just have to shake my head.
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  #1043  
Old 12-03-2018, 01:21 AM
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I think probably a foreign prince or duke etc...to make an alliance, but I doubt Henry would have named her succesor until he knew for certain no boys would come...so she likely would have stayed unmarried for a while anyway.
It has always amazed me that Henry VIII did not try to marry his daughter Mary to his nephew James V. James and Mary could have produced children who would have reigned over England and Scotland.
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  #1044  
Old 12-04-2018, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Carin View Post
It has always amazed me that Henry VIII did not try to marry his daughter Mary to his nephew James V. James and Mary could have produced children who would have reigned over England and Scotland.
Henry did want his son Edward to marry Mary Queen of Scots, though, which would have produced the same result. However the betrothal was broken off by the Scots, to Henry's fury.

5 Fascinating Facts about King Henry VIII’s son, King Edward VI — History is Now Magazine, Podcasts, Blog and Books | Modern International and American history
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  #1045  
Old 12-04-2018, 05:38 PM
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Henry did want his son Edward to marry Mary Queen of Scots, though, which would have produced the same result. However the betrothal was broken off by the Scots, to Henry's fury.
Who exactly among the Scots broke off the betrothal of Mary, Queen of Scots to Prince Edward?
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  #1046  
Old 12-04-2018, 05:51 PM
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The Treaty of Greenwich which proposed the union fell apart after Henry had impounded several Scottish merchant vessels which vexed Cardinal Beaton and the Earl of Arran who then looked back towards a French royal match ,the queen dowager,Marie de Guise was against it from the start.
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  #1047  
Old 12-08-2018, 08:23 PM
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Speaking of Catherine...she had deluded herself into thinking it was only Woolsey who had “made” Henry set her aside. Then when he died, she had to blame Anne. She took Mary along with her in these delusions. She seemed to think if she declared she was still queen enough times, it would be so, and Henry would hang his head and return to her.

But as Mary found out after Anne’s execution, Henry was just as firm and hostile as Anne had been in regards to the succession and the marriage to Anne being recognized. Neither dared blame Henry even to themselves. Yet if they knew him at all, they had to know that he did nothing that he did not want to do.

Also when Anne said that Mary was her death and she was Mary’s...at least according to history...it was really Catherine who was her death. Henry would not have dared execute Anne while Catherline lived, for fear he would be pressured or expected to return to Catherine and/or have a future marriage seen as invalid by his realm. Once Catherine was dead, he was free to do his worst.
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  #1048  
Old 12-08-2018, 08:37 PM
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She declared herself to be Queen because she was the Queen. Just because Harry got dissident clergy to declare him divorced does not mean he was actually divorced. According to his own Church (before he founded the new one) he was not divorced nor did he receive a decree of nullity and therefore was not free to marry. When you look at it from that perspective (and that would of been Catherines) she was still his lawful wife and the Queen.



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  #1049  
Old 12-08-2018, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
She declared herself to be Queen because she was the Queen. Just because Harry got dissident clergy to declare him divorced does not mean he was actually divorced. According to his own Church (before he founded the new one) he was not divorced nor did he receive a decree of nullity and therefore was not free to marry. When you look at it from that perspective (and that would of been Catherines) she was still his lawful wife and the Queen.



LaRae
Exactly. Catherine believed she was Henry's wife in the eyes of God. Not calling herself Queen would be a lie, something she refused to do, as a woman with strong religious convictions.
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  #1050  
Old 12-08-2018, 09:55 PM
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Instead of getting dressed up and throwing a party as she did when Catherine's death was announced, Anne should have fled the country.

With Catherine out of the way, Henry was no longer in the position of having two living ex-wives...he could get rid of Anne as Lucy63 pointed out.

Indeed, Anne miscarried a son on the day of Catherine's funeral and was executed less than 5 months later.

It almost seems karmic.
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  #1051  
Old 12-10-2018, 06:38 PM
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Catherine may have still been queen in Rome, and even in heaven but as David Starkey said, unfortunately for her, she was living in England.

Henry needed absolutely irrefutable proof of the worst possible misdeeds to rid himself of Anne, as he never wanted to admit mistakes. So Cromwell made it happen, imo. Then no one could blame him, and he would even get sympathy (in his mind.) Wonder what he would have come up with Jane had given birth to a girl and then no more children...
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  #1052  
Old 12-26-2018, 05:28 PM
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Anne of Cleves's coronation as queen had been set for February 1540. King Henry VIII called it off without giving a reason. Was he not required to give a reason?
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  #1053  
Old 12-27-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Anne of Cleves's coronation as queen had been set for February 1540. King Henry VIII called it off without giving a reason. Was he not required to give a reason?
Why would he be required to give a reason, He was king....
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  #1054  
Old 12-29-2018, 10:08 PM
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I read “Young, Damned and Fair” by Gareth Russell this week, a full bio on Catherine Howard. She was a silly girl, but also a bit calculating there at the end, when she told Cranmer that Dereham had raped her all those times. The author does not buy into Catherine as a victim of sexual abuse in her youth, partly I think because her age at the time was not far off marrying age for women then, so it is not really comparable. Also, with Culpepper she seemed to go after him as much as vice versa. Still...if anything, besides not being too smart, she sure was not well advised or well handled by her trove of relations. All she needed to do was play the good wife for a few years...in any case, less than ten at most, though it would have turned out to be even sooner, and she would have been rewarded as Katherine Parr was as far as estates, pensions, freedom, etc. and she still would have been barely 25 or so.

But what a tragedy it all was. The worst part (besides being executed) is that she had to wait around for death for 13 weeks, while Anne had less than 3 weeks, from start to finish.
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  #1055  
Old 12-30-2018, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Lucy63 View Post
I read “Young, Damned and Fair” by Gareth Russell this week, a full bio on Catherine Howard. She was a silly girl, but also a bit calculating there at the end, when she told Cranmer that Dereham had raped her all those times. The author does not buy into Catherine as a victim of sexual abuse in her youth, partly I think because her age at the time was not far off marrying age for women then, so it is not really comparable. Also, with Culpepper she seemed to go after him as much as vice versa. Still...if anything, besides not being too smart, she sure was not well advised or well handled by her trove of relations. All she needed to do was play the good wife for a few years...in any case, less than ten at most, though it would have turned out to be even sooner, and she would have been rewarded as Katherine Parr was as far as estates, pensions, freedom, etc. and she still would have been barely 25 or so.

But what a tragedy it all was. The worst part (besides being executed) is that she had to wait around for death for 13 weeks, while Anne had less than 3 weeks, from start to finish.
She was extremely stupid, and had indeed been badly trained (or rather neglected) by her relatives. but her behaviour was her own, not her relatives. She should have known that an affair with one of H's favoured young courtiers was NOT ON. True that if she had stayed faithful and well behaved for a few years, she would have been a wealthy widowed queen and could probably have married someone she really loved or at least a younger more compatible partner...
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  #1056  
Old 12-30-2018, 08:14 AM
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The Tombs/Plaques of Henry's wives

Catherine of Aragon in Peterborough Cathedral

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._of_Aragon.JPG

Plaque of Anne Boleyn at Church of Saint Peter ad Vincula

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...nne_Boleyn.jpg

Jane Seymour,St George's Chapel in Windsor

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombe_...Henry_VIII.jpg

Anne of Cleves in Westminster Abbey

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClDxY1mWEAA4D03.jpg

Catherine Howards plaque,Church of Saint Peter ad Vincula

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tombe_...d%27s_Tomb.jpg


The tomb of Catherine Parr, St Mary's Chapel in Sudeley Castle.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...%285058%29.jpg
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  #1057  
Old 02-11-2019, 05:08 PM
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In some of his love letters to Anne Boleyn, King Henry VIII referred to himself as Anne's servant. When she responded that she should actually be considered Henry's servant, this delighted Henry.
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  #1058  
Old 03-16-2019, 03:57 PM
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DNA results taken from 10 skeletons found on board Henry VIII's flagship the Mary Rose were analysed by team at Cardiff and Portsmouth universities and its discovered that the crew 'was from Mediterranean and North Africa'.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-47572089
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  #1059  
Old 03-16-2019, 11:48 PM
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This is fascinating stuff, especially showing a varied and multicultural English population. And also the archers becoming sailors; multi-tasking, retired from the army of the time or maybe there on board ship to repel enemy boarders?
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  #1060  
Old 03-17-2019, 12:08 AM
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This is fascinating stuff, especially showing a varied and multicultural English population. And also the archers becoming sailors; multi-tasking, retired from the army of the time or maybe there on board ship to repel enemy boarders?
Archers have been common on war ships since ancient times. The Greeks and Romans would have them on board. There are naval records of battles, like Henry V, with archers as well. By the time of the battle of the Spanish armada, during the reign of Elizabeth, archers were declining in naval battle and land. They were often on the upper deck, and yes were useful in taking out enemies in battle that came on board.
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