Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by Curryong

I think what Henry wanted from the Pope was simple, his marriage to Katherine put aside in the eyes of the Church so that he could marry Anne. Had the Pope cooperated Henry would IMO have been perfectly happy to continue with Roman Catholicism and all its accompanying rituals.

i have read that Mary left huge debts which Elizabeth had to pay off. Elizabeth was the reverse of extravagant and kept to a strict annual budget all her reign. So no, an elaborate tomb for her father was not on the cards.

Until Anne didn't have a son....then he'd of wanted another decree of nullity....and most likely things would of ended up just as they did.


LaRae

[MaiaMia_53]

If you look at the documentary I linked above, it was the head injuries and leg injuries and resulting chronic illnesses and infections, as well as the doctors' brutal treatments of that time (including blood-letting by leeches) that led to Henry VIII being in a terrible physical state, with constant pain. His head injuries impacted the part of his brain which affects the personality and mental states.

It was the second head injury Henry suffered after being crushed by a horse that led to him losing consciousness for over an hour. From then on, his intemperate and cruel personality change was noted. In fact, he was expected to die, but he survived. Worst of all, when pregnant Anne Boleyn heard about the terrible accident Henry had suffered, she ended up miscarrying her first baby, and it was a boy. As we know, Boleyn eventually gave birth to another child, a girl destined to become one of the greatest Queens of England, but at what price!

Per the documentary, Henry was so bloated and diseased by the time of his death, his corpse actually exploded in the coffin during the burial.

[Curryong]

'Why Henry doesn't have a tomb'

https://thefreelancehistorywriter.co...e-have-a-tomb/

This is a quite interesting account, and includes the watercolour of the intact coffin of Jane Seymour and the badly damaged coffin of Henry VIII, re-discovered when a new vault was dug in 1813.

[MaiaMia_53]

Originally Posted by Biri

In 1536, when Anne Boleyn was pregnant with her son (who was stillborn).

I believe that was the accident in which Henry was crushed by a horse and suffered what was likely a severe concussion. Henry had suffered a much earlier head injury as a younger man while jousting. He had forgotten to pull down his visor to cover his forehead and eyes. Barrelling forward with his horse, he was struck in the head over his eye by his competitor's lance.

The terrible medical and health conditions and lack of sanitation described in the documentary that existed during those times, is horrifying.

I do believe there was folk knowledge available regarding herbal (plant) remedies and homeopathic practices, but people in Europe of that time, likely attributed those practices to witchcraft. Much of Europe was backwards for a long time regarding sanitation and cleanliness. As well, many of the medical treatments administered by doctors were horrific. Even in the U.S., it wasn't until after the Civil War and thousands of needless deaths attributed to avoidable infection, that medical doctors began to slowly adopt sterilization of instruments and hands before conducting surgical procedures.

[Lucy63]

It still boggles my mind that for centuries it was considered standard practice to bleed people when they were ill, regardless of how weak they were, what was wrong, even when pregnant or after giving birth. They thought they were “draining off excess blood” . Poor Princess Charlotte went through hell via her doctor during the birth that killed her and the next heir. And Henry was tortured by his doctors on a regular basis.

I have seen the doc about Henry’s body. He likely would have been diagnosed with diabetes as well as high blood pressure and other modern conditions. Brain damage is possible from his accident but also the constant pain in his leg could have contributed to his temper.

[Gawin]

Originally Posted by Lucy63

It still boggles my mind that for centuries it was considered standard practice to bleed people when they were ill, regardless of how weak they were, what was wrong, even when pregnant or after giving birth. They thought they were “draining off excess blood” . Poor Princess Charlotte went through hell via her doctor during the birth that killed her and the next heir. And Henry was tortured by his doctors on a regular basis.

I have seen the doc about Henry’s body. He likely would have been diagnosed with diabetes as well as high blood pressure and other modern conditions. Brain damage is possible from his accident but also the constant pain in his leg could have contributed to his temper.

Maybe the doctors who tortured him were women in disguise.

[CyrilVladisla]

With his second and third marriages, King Henry VIII had not made a marriage for political advantages with a foreign princess. After Catherine of Aragon, would it not have been better if King Henry had wed a foreign princess?

Originally Posted by Pranter

Woolsey certainly wanted him to marry a French Princess and not Anne.


LaRae

Who was the French Princess and who was her father?

[Curryong]

Henry was desperately in love with Anne Boleyn whom he'd wished to marry for years. After all the trouble he had gone to in shedding Katherine, leaving her in inadequate and unhealthy surroundings in the hope that she would die (which she did) I think the last thing on Henry's mind was marriage to a foreign princess.

And where is the guarantee that a union with a foreigner would go any better than marriages number two, four and five? After all, the union with Anne of Cleves wasn't exactly a huge success. I do think that Henry preferred to marry his subjects, and women that he got to know (or thought he did) at court before proposing.

[Pranter]

Woolsey certainly wanted him to marry a French Princess and not Anne.


LaRae

[Lucy63]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

With his second and third marriages, King Henry VIII had not made a marriage for political advantages with a foreign princess. After Catherine of Aragon, would it not have been better if King Henry had wed a foreign princess?

Woolsey thought he was clearing the way for a French marriage when he battled to get Henry's original marriage annulled. He was stunned to learn that Henry was determined to marry Anne. And by the time he was done with Anne, he was already “in love” with Jane so his ministers could not alter his decision. Henry finally agreed to a foreign match when Jane died, though reluctantly. And when that failed spectaculary, it was no more foreign matches for him. If he could not rely on portraits, he would not risk being displeased again. Also, not many foreign princesses were lining up to marry him by then. Even before Katherine Howard was executed, Cromwell was having trouble finding any interest.

But yes...generally a foreign match was deemed better for England, for the alliance as well as to prevent any English family being raised too high. At least by the ministers...the people of England certainly did not want foreign matches for female sovereigns. They mostly hated Mary for taking Philip of Spain.

[Lucy63]

Woolsey wanted Henry to marry a daughter of the French king...not sure of her name.

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla

Who was the French Princess and who was her father?

I believe the King was Francois I and it was his sister Margaret de Valois.



LaRae

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Pranter

I believe the King was Francois I and it was his sister Margaret de Valois.



LaRae

Marguerite d'Angoulême was already married to Henri II of Navarre by 1525,prior to that she was married to Charles Duc d'Alencon.

It might have been Renée of France daughter of Louis XII,born in 1510?

[Pranter]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Marguerite d'Angoulême was already married to Henri II of Navarre by 1525,prior to that she was married to Charles Duc d'Alencon.

It might have been Renée of France daughter of Louis XII,born in 1510?

She was married too the Duke of Ferrera in the late 20's .....unless either she was a widow?

Catherine of Aragon didn't die until 1536...so hmmm a daughter of Francois I? But I think his eldest was born until the late 1530's so can't of been her.






LaRae

[Gawin]

Originally Posted by Pranter

She was married too the Duke of Ferrera in the late 20's .....unless either she was a widow?

Catherine of Aragon didn't die until 1536...so hmmm a daughter of Francois I? But I think his eldest was born until the late 1530's so can't of been her.






LaRae

Wolsey wanted Henry to marry Renee of France, daughter of Louis XII and Anne of Brittany, and younger sister of Queen Claude, first wife of Francis I. It was Renee who married the Duke of Ferrara in 1528, not Francis's sister Marguerite.

Incidentally, Renee was (1) the stepdaughter of Henry's sister Mary who was briefly married to Louis XII, and (2) the daughter-in-law of Lucrezia Borgia.

[Pranter]

It was Renee I was referring to that was married to the Duke of Ferrara.


LaRae

[Countessmeout]

Originally Posted by Pranter

She was married too the Duke of Ferrera in the late 20's .....unless either she was a widow?

Catherine of Aragon didn't die until 1536...so hmmm a daughter of Francois I? But I think his eldest was born until the late 1530's so can't of been her.






LaRae

But we have to remember Henry was looking for an annulment years before Catherine died. In 1527 he was already talking divorce. Wolseley indeed suggested Renee who didn't marry the Duke until a year later.

Later on his life, other French princesses woukd come up. Marie of Guise and her two sisters came up as well.

[Gawin]

Originally Posted by Pranter

It was Renee I was referring to that was married to the Duke of Ferrara.


LaRae

Oops, sorry, that's what happens when I skim through the posts!

[An Ard Ri]

There were may available French Princess c1528

Renée de France,daughter of Louis XII ,(1510 – 1574)
Isabella de Navarre ,sister of Henri II de Navarre (1512–1555)
Marie de Guise (1515-1560)
Louise de Guise (1520-1542)
Marie de Bourbon (1515–1538) daughter of the Duc de Vendôme
Marguerite de Bourbon (1516-1589) daughter of the Duc de Vendôme
Madeleine de Bourbon (1521–1561)

[CyrilVladisla]

Was Madeleine de Bourbon the daughter of the Duc de Vendome?