Henry VIII (1491-1547) and Wives

[Grace Angel]

Yes, I've read he maybe had a mistress who was a lady at court even when married to Jane Seymour. A contemporary wrote that he had an eye for this lady, although it wasn't serious. Of course, he wouldn't have viewed that as betrayl. That was the common way of Kings.

I didn't mean he betrayed Catharine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn by cheating on them though he defintely cheated on Catharine and likely Anne too. I think he betrayed Anne by having her executed on trumped up charges, and by losing all his love for her when she wasn't able to give him an heir. As for Catharine of Aragon, he betrayed her by treating her as he did because she wouldn't agree to their divorce. He had her lodged in damp unsuitable castles and prevented her from seeing Mary, their daughter. The strain of this treatment broke her health and killed her. As for his last marriages, I'm sure it was a disapointment to him not to have further sons. He wanted them, that's for sure, but he must have accepted he might only have one. It's said I think that one reason Catharine Howard might have been sleeping around was to give Henry a son, albeit of another parentage. She might have felt pressure to produce a child, so have been more inclined to conduct extramarital affairs. While that may be true, she must have known her behaviour was a risk, and also to have done it because she really wanted to, too. She was naive and young.

[Lady Ann]

Cathrine Howard was in love with Thomas Culpepper. "I DIE A QUEEN, BUT I WOULD RATHER DIE THE WIFE OF THOMAS CULPEPPER." her last words!!!!
I (IMO) don't think at all that she was trying to have a child to pass off as the Kings.( Where was that said?) You should read (The Rose with out a Thorne) by Jean Plaidy it is a great book on the life of Cathrine Howard.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Lady Ann

Cathrine Howard was in love with Thomas Culpepper. "I DIE A QUEEN, BUT I WOULD RATHER DIE THE WIFE OF THOMAS CULPEPPER." her last words!!!!
.

Strong words for a young girl going to be beheaded and a terrible insult for Henry VIII, I hope these words hurt...

[Grace Angel]

Originally Posted by Lady Ann

Cathrine Howard was in love with Thomas Culpepper. "I DIE A QUEEN, BUT I WOULD RATHER DIE THE WIFE OF THOMAS CULPEPPER." her last words!!!!
I (IMO) don't think at all that she was trying to have a child to pass off as the Kings.( Where was that said?) You should read (The Rose with out a Thorne) by Jean Plaidy it is a great book on the life of Cathrine Howard.

I read it in a bio of one of the Tudors I think of Henry and his wives, who I don't recall. It was non fiction. I guess it was what that author believed, but I can't recall who it was.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Grace Angel

I read it in a bio of one of the Tudors I think of Henry and his wives, who I don't recall. It was non fiction. I guess it was what that author believed, but I can't recall who it was.

I saw a TV series that had something about this but I can´t remember which, but what I can remember in this film was Catherine Howard completely hysterical, trying to speak to the King, this was when she realised that she was about to be condemned to death, and in her desperation saying that she was pregnant hoping that this would save her. I believe this was an entirely fictional scene and not factual. If it did happen then the minute she said she was pregnant, after being accused of being unfaithful, meant she would definitely be sentenced to death as Henry VIII would never risk someone
else´s son being in line for the throne of England.

[scooter]

It's known that Catherine Howard's upbringing was very lax. She lived in a dormitory arrangement with other young woman in her step Grandmother the Dowager Duchess of Norfolk's house. They were under little supervision and entertained men in the dormitory. This is where she first became involved with Francis Dereham. She then stupidly brought Dereham to Court when she married Henry. Even if her conduct was blameless during her time as Queen, which is doubtful, Dereham would been enough to send her to the block.

[Menarue]

You are certainly right about her affair with Dereham being enough to send her to the block and also she trusted the sister-in-law of her cousin Anne Boleyn with her secrets, the same woman that accused her husband, Anne´s brother of incest, this cost both of them their heads. Catherine Howard really seemed to have no sense at all. It
wasn´t that she was in ignorance of what had happened before.
A very foolish young lady married to a very dangerous powerful man.

[Grace Angel]

Yes, Catharine Howard wasn't at all in love with Henry, and unwisely showed it. She was young, only 17 or so and had no idea what she was doing in marrying Henry. But she was raised in a really lax way, unusual for young women of the aristocracy back then and that doomed her. Henry had never run into before a wife who wasn't in love with him, or one who cheated on him. Katharine Parr was in love with Edward VI's uncle and wished to marry him, but then Henry began courting her, and she wisely gave up the other man until she was a widow and free to do as she wished. If only Katharine Howard had been brighter and done the same, although foolish as she was, she may have gotten herself into some trouble anyway.

[Menarue]

Poor Katharine Parr didn´t last long after she married her true love Seymour, either, she died in childbirth....

[Emeralds and Opals]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8010634.stm

"Audio slideshow: The real Henry VIII?"

http://timesonline.typepad.com/schoolgate/2009/04/why-henry-viii-matters-david-starkey-tells-school-gate.html

"Was Henry VIII our most important monarch ever? David Starkey thinks so..."

[Skydragon]

History is now a multi-media theme park through which many choose to pass for light entertainment. The journey is often superficial and conducted by the inexpert. Occasionally one travels first class, such as with Dr Richard Holmes, the peerless military historian, or Dr David Starkey, the Tudor titan.

Thank Henry VIII for laying those foundations of freedom - Telegraph

[Grace Angel]

Originally Posted by Menarue

Strong words for a young girl going to be beheaded and a terrible insult for Henry VIII, I hope these words hurt...

I think she used strong words because she was so foolish too. She may not have had any idea how bold she was being. She was certainly much different from her sophisticated cousin, Anne B. But they both were bold in their own ways. I'm sure those words did hurt Henry. He did feel genuine betrayl by her, but he never recognized his own betrayl of women in the past that he seemed to have loved. At least Catharine Howard can't be said to have betrayed someone she claimed to love.

[Menarue]

Catherine Howard put the men she loved in mortal danger by her conduct. Francis Dereham was hanged at Tyburn, drawn and quartered. Thomas Culpepper was granted an easier death as Henry VIII had always liked him, he was just beheaded.
If this foolish girl had really loved these men she would have realised that having an affair with them when married to the King was playing with their lives and not just hers.
In this way she betrayed the men she loved and caused their deaths.

[scooter]

By the same token, a man would have to be incredibly reckless to sleep with Henry's wife after what happened to Anne Boleyn and friends, regardless of a prior relationship with Catherine. To my mind they caused their own deaths. Did they think Henry would grant them a title and manor house for sleeping with his wife?

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by scooter

By the same token, a man would have to be incredibly reckless to sleep with Henry's wife after what happened to Anne Boleyn and friends, regardless of a prior relationship with Catherine. To my mind they caused their own deaths. Did they think Henry would grant them a title and manor house for sleeping with his wife?

Quite right, in this affair both sides were definitely reckless and should have known better. Sleeping with the King´s wife was definitely a risky business.
But then they found that out the hard way....

[Royal Fan]

Is it True he was Manic and over 300 Ibs

[Zonk]

In regards to Catherine Howard (and the men who died with her)...there is enough blame to go around. Catherine can hardly be blamed for putting them in harm's way. If anything, I think it would have been like Anne Bolyen. If there wasn't sufficent evidence...I think Henry (or his advisers) would have manufactured such evidence.

[Menarue]

Originally Posted by Zonk

In regards to Catherine Howard (and the men who died with her)...there is enough blame to go around. Catherine can hardly be blamed for putting them in harm's way. If anything, I think it would have been like Anne Bolyen. If there wasn't sufficent evidence...I think Henry (or his advisers) would have manufactured such evidence.

I am afraid I don´t agree with you, the case of Catherine was very different from Anne Boleyn´s. King Henry had grown tired of Anne but he was very much in love with Catherine, she was his young love in his old age, he gave her the motto "A rose without thorns" and she was his pet and he doted on her. I think he would have done anything for her and he was deeply shocked when he was told of her carryings on. I think he found it difficult to believe at first but when absolute proof was put in front of him he had no alternative but to get rid of her, and in those days that meant, unfortunately for her, the block.

[iowabelle]

Originally Posted by scooter

By the same token, a man would have to be incredibly reckless to sleep with Henry's wife after what happened to Anne Boleyn and friends, regardless of a prior relationship with Catherine. To my mind they caused their own deaths. Did they think Henry would grant them a title and manor house for sleeping with his wife?

I'm sure that the risk probably added some spice to these relationships. Foolish people, Henry was unpredictable enough without enraging him.

[Russophile]

Henry VIIIs' love letters to Anne Boelyn on loan from the Vatican.
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