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  #1581  
Old 10-19-2017, 02:38 AM
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In a way, being selfish and also seeing David's deep depression over how his life was run hand in hand. So many times and in so many words in letters he's written to Freda Dudley Ward and to others bemoan the fact that his life just wasn't the way he perceived it should be in order to be happy. His role as Prince of Wales, in his eyes, prevented him from doing things that he felt he really wanted to do such as go to the front lines in WWI. His life, to me, seemed from the early years before the abdication, one of where there was always something standing in the way of what he felt would make him happy.

With this in mind, he also was selfish to the point of being overly possessive of those intimate relationships to the point that they became his have all and be all of what he needed to be happy. We saw that with Freda and later on with his possessiveness of his relationship with Wallis.

There was always something in David's life that was missing that he perceived he needed to be happy. He abdicated his position as King to marry Wallis and even once he had that, there were other things to bemoan such as lack of money and lack of status and prestige. No matter where David was in life, there was always the element of "the grass is greener" somewhere else and more to want and more to bemoan about because he didn't have it.
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  #1582  
Old 10-19-2017, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
Where you can see nothing but dogged selfishness, I see a deeply unhappy man trying to cope with his depressions, while he also has high expectations to live up to and duties to perform.
So what was his excuse when he had given up being king and did very little but sit at home waiting for Wallis to come in, or going trhough an aimless social life with her?
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  #1583  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:34 AM
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Osipi wrote a very good post explaining that he never seemed to be fully happy, even when you might very well think that he should have been. Which yet again sounds to me like he had his mental problems, which he could never resolve.
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  #1584  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:35 AM
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What was to stop him getting help?
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  #1585  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:59 AM
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While I can't definately answer the question why David didn't get help, I have my theories.

Firstly, there was a huge stigma against mental illness a long way into the 20th century. So that alone can have made him decide to not do it. Secondly, psychiatry still had a long way to go during his lifetime. He might have been scared to put himself at the mercy of a half-primitive mental care. Thirdly, even if you get help for depressions and such mental issues today, you might fall back into the funk later, especially if something new negative happens in your life.
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  #1586  
Old 10-19-2017, 08:06 AM
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Chronic depression is a serious illness and even now sometimes there is not a lot you can do.... take a lot of pills... talk to someone.... but these sometimes don't even always work.... if it was his problem of course
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  #1587  
Old 10-19-2017, 08:09 AM
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We have to remember too that David's lifetime was back in the era where doctors told women to take up smoking to relax their nerves.

Knowledge of psychiatry and mental illnesses wasn't something that was very widespread yet or accepted. I would imagine that even if David or those close to him recognized that he may have any kind of a mental problem, it most certainly wasn't something one ran to the doctor about. Even David's youngest brother, John, with severe epilepsy didn't receive much in the way of medical treatment (as far as I understand from what I've read. It was commonly called a "malady").

All this pretty much stopped him from getting help as, at that time, there really wasn't much help to be gotten from a psychiatric point of view. If such mental problems became public in any way, the family would have felt it to be a huge stigma on them.
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  #1588  
Old 10-19-2017, 08:19 AM
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Battle Royal

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Has anyone read "Battle Royal" by Kirsty McLeod? It is a book about the feud between King George VI and the Duke of Windsor? I found it on Amazon, but it is EXPENSIVE and it is out of stock on thriftbooks.com. I am just wondering about the reliability of it? Thanks.
I don’t know this book, but I can recommend abebooks.com as an excellent source. They have several copies, at prices beginning at $1.18! I’ve often ordered out of print volumes from abebooks.
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  #1589  
Old 10-19-2017, 08:40 AM
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So what was his excuse when he had given up being king and did very little but sit at home waiting for Wallis to come in, or going trhough an aimless social life with her?
The Duke of Windsor wanted to work but he was sidelined by the BRF (for mostly understandable reasons). He did work in France during World War II but then France got invaded by the Nazis and he needed to be re-assigned but by then he shown himself to be indiscreet with sensitive information, he was chummy with Nazi sympathizers, if not the Nazis themselves, and he was a pain in the butt over what was seen as trivial matters during wartime like lobbying for Wallis to have HRH styling, so he ended up being assigned Governor General of the Bahamas until the end of the war.

Also David was over fifty by the time World War II ended and he really was not qualified to be anything other than a working royal or a country squire which probably applies to most royals. Some royal men had military careers but the ones who that applies to started active service when they were young men.
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  #1590  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Furienna View Post
While I can't definately answer the question why David didn't get help, I have my theories.

Firstly, there was a huge stigma against mental illness a long way into the 20th century. So that alone can have made him decide to not do it. Secondly, psychiatry still had a long way to go during his lifetime. He might have been scared to put himself at the mercy of a half-primitive mental care. Thirdly, even if you get help for depressions and such mental issues today, you might fall back into the funk later, especially if something new negative happens in your life.
or there was noting wrong with him but he was spoiled, and selfish.

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The Duke of Windsor wanted to work but he was sidelined by the BRF (for mostly understandable reasons). He did work in France during World War II but then France got invaded by the Nazis and he needed to be re-assigned but by then he shown himself to be indiscreet with sensitive information, he was chummy with Nazi sympathizers, if not the Nazis themselves, and he was a pain in the butt over what was seen as trivial matters during wartime like lobbying for Wallis to have HRH styling, so he ended up being assigned Governor General of the Bahamas until the end of the war.

young men.
He didn't want to "wrok", he wanted to be royal agan but only to do as much "princely" or charity duties as suited him. He behaved abominably during the war, any one else would probably have been court martialled. he refused to come home at a critical part of the early war because he was arguing about Wallis having an HRH. he then left for England and as I recall Left his aide, who was an old friend, to make his own way back.
He was then sent to the Bahamas where he and Wallis bitched about the place and called it Elba.. and made a hash of things there. After the war, he was settled in France, nothing to stop him setting up some kind of charity there, or taking up some energetic hobby.. Instead he and W pursued a social life. He was bored and miserable except for being with her...
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  #1591  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:33 AM
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By all accounts of what I've read about David, if we could time travel his lifetime and his personality into the 21st century, I think its very possible that he could be diagnosed as having a narcissistic personality disorder.

Some of the traits of this disorder are :

Grandiose sense of self-importance. ...
Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. ...
Needs constant praise and admiration. ...
Sense of entitlement. ...
Exploits others without guilt or shame. ...
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.

While some of these traits aren't so prominent in David's behavior, there are a few that are. Back though, in David's era, a lot of these traits could very well have been mistaken for actually being right and proper for a British prince to exhibit. He definitely always had something that he felt he deserved or needed. He possessively clung to his intimate female relationships as if he was constantly in need of "mothering" or someone to praise and admire him and used them to boost his own fragile self esteem. The sense of entitlement showed up in the different scenarios where no matter what he had or what he had attained, it was never enough and there was always something "out there" that he felt he was entitled to and it depressed him not having it.

He could have started up charities or find something worthwhile to do as Queen Claude suggests but being a narcissist, it was always something that would be for him that was a driving force rather than being driven to do for others.

I may be way off the mark but this is what comes to mind for me.
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  #1592  
Old 10-19-2017, 11:46 AM
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But he did actualy do reasonable work in his earlier days...he was a good POW in public, in the 20s, even if he whined a lot in private. But with the 1930s, as he came nearer the throne, he seemed to get a lot more selfish and with Wallis by his side, he became incredibly so.
I think its just old fashioned spoiledness.
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  #1593  
Old 10-19-2017, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
We have to remember too that David's lifetime was back in the era where doctors told women to take up smoking to relax their nerves.

Knowledge of psychiatry and mental illnesses wasn't something that was very widespread yet or accepted. I would imagine that even if David or those close to him recognized that he may have any kind of a mental problem, it most certainly wasn't something one ran to the doctor about. Even David's youngest brother, John, with severe epilepsy didn't receive much in the way of medical treatment (as far as I understand from what I've read. It was commonly called a "malady").

All this pretty much stopped him from getting help as, at that time, there really wasn't much help to be gotten from a psychiatric point of view. If such mental problems became public in any way, the family would have felt it to be a huge stigma on them.
Thank you! Just what I was trying to say!
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  #1594  
Old 10-19-2017, 02:08 PM
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or there was noting wrong with him but he was spoiled, and selfish.
I don't believe that that is really fair. Again, I believe that what you see as spoiledness and selfishness were symtoms of something bigger.
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  #1595  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:11 PM
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I cannot imagine anyone seeing Edward VIIIs life and not seeing him as having behaved appallingly at many times.
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  #1596  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:27 PM
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Actually its his appalling behavior that led me to think that he may have had a narcissistic personality. He was very much engrossed in himself and what suited him and what pleased him and what he wanted and people like that tend to not think or care about the other people around him.

Case in point. Its been under discussion that Wallis really wasn't gearing for David to marry her and would have maybe preferred to remain married to Ernest and keep up the social lifestyle of a royal mistress. We'll never really know what Wallis really thought but there are plenty of credible sources that say that David was dead set on marriage and if she left him, he threatened bodily harm to himself. This isn't a man that is thinking of his beloved but someone that come hell or high water, he was going to get what he wanted by any means possible. He even met with Ernest and worked out a "deal" without Wallis' knowledge, which if true, kind of forced her hand. All this definitely points to putting himself and his wants and needs first and foremost.

At least that's how I see it.
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  #1597  
Old 10-19-2017, 03:32 PM
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Yes I call that selfish. but tehn again lots of people "love" in a very selfish way. And Wallis IMO (see earlier post) DID sort of "walk in" to a difficult tangle..but I think she encouraged Edwards's more selflsih side..
I think she never imagined that he'd actually want to marry her.. but she liked being a royal mistress, and having Ernest to be there if the affair ended.
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  #1598  
Old 10-19-2017, 06:54 PM
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Why is it that we cannot accept that a person is by nature selfish, mean-spirited, cruel, or any other such thing. We seem to live in a time where every "character failure" is deemed a mental illness and we even try to diagnose them in retrospect. How many biographies of David diagnosed him as mentally ill instead of vain, petty and treasonous?

Sometimes you just have to step back and look at what was written and, in this case, information becoming declassified, and accept that some people are just not very nice and all the words and pity in the world will not make them good or worthy nor excuse their excesses in any way. They do not get a free pass because they were mentally ill. They were both shallow and lived in excess until life, real life, dealt them a hand they didn't want to play.

There is an old saying "sow the wind and reap the whirlwind". Never were truer words said to describe David and Wallis.
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  #1599  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:13 PM
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I do agree. They were not people who wanted to help the world. But, I also think history (and we) tend to turn people, good and bad, into caricatures over time. So, we exaggerate their "goodness" or "badness" over time.

I think they had good qualities - humor, taste, loyalty in kind, tenacity, social skills. But I have always thought they were 40 years past the time when their foibles would have been accepted by society. And they were quite clueless about that. Sad, really...Not knowing what you don't know.
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Old 10-20-2017, 12:11 AM
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Why is it that we cannot accept that a person is by nature selfish, mean-spirited, cruel, or any other such thing. We seem to live in a time where every "character failure" is deemed a mental illness and we even try to diagnose them in retrospect. How many biographies of David diagnosed him as mentally ill instead of vain, petty and treasonous?

Sometimes you just have to step back and look at what was written and, in this case, information becoming declassified, and accept that some people are just not very nice and all the words and pity in the world will not make them good or worthy nor excuse their excesses in any way. They do not get a free pass because they were mentally ill. They were both shallow and lived in excess until life, real life, dealt them a hand they didn't want to play.
Reading these words I could not help but flash on a more recent British Princess whose personal stability/character is the object of considerable debate. Interesting to see the difference applied to a man as to a woman. Just an observation.

BTW I am not necessarily a fan of either David or Wallis, but Wallis intrigues me. Her circumstances intrigue me. That she may have been someone who quite 'innocently' toyed with social malleability only to find herself caught in a web she never dreamed would ensnare her is fascinating to me. (The story of many a woman, actually, and men, in intimate relationships).

But more interesting is how that initial broad brush with which she was painted, exasperated by the QM's animus, has created a legend that refuses to be shaken. Even today I read an article linked on the Harry and Meghan thread that stated: "The last time an American divorcee was introduced into the Royal Family it imperiled the entire future of the monarchy. But unlike Edward VIII, Prince Harry is not the King or heir to the throne. And besides, Meghan Markle is a very different kind of woman from the predatory Wallis Simpson."

There it is: forever she will be identified as having connived to marry David and be Queen, when the reality was far more complex, even harrowing. A tragic tale imo.
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