Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986) - Page 76

Denville · #**1501** 06-15-2017, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curryong

I in David's adult life, with Freda Dudley Ward, set a pattern. Love, quickly followed with copious needy letters full of baby talk and a total obsessive affection. It was Freda who pulled away from that romance and David settled for a close friendship. In Wallis's case however, David was no longer in his twenties, and he wanted a domestic life. That meant a wife.

I think he loved her, yes, but in an obsessive unhealthy way. But Its new to me that Freda DW "pulled away from the romance". Wasnt' she still involved with him when he fell for Wallis and broke off with Freda by having her calls blocked? If they were just friends, would she have gone on phoning him every day etc

Denville · #**1502** 06-15-2017, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi

I think that David's love for Wallis was more of a self serving love than anything else. He had an emotional obsession with Mrs. Simpson that he just could not let go of. Wallis enjoyed every minute of it in the beginning as she was also self serving and whatever raised her in society suited her just fine. They suited each other so well as they both benefited from the relationship.

Their marriage, when it did happen, suited them both. Frick and Frack and two peas in a pod without a care in the world except for if it affected them and their lifestyles. A superficial life isn't rewarding for most people but was the perfect setting for David and Wallis.

I would say lots of people are happy with a superficial life. But with regard to David, I think that he did love her, and I don't quite see how it is self serving, except in terms that he got her to marry him and thus provided himself with a wife who was there all the time. That fulfilled his needs.. and perhaps he subconcsiously was looking for a way out of being king.
I think she was not TOO happy with the marriage, there were times when she got fed up with his clinging cloying adoration.. and she had at least one relationship with Jimmy Donahue that was emotional if not physical -. I think she grew closer to him as time wnet on but for a long time he was the one who kissed and she offered the cheek...
and boht of them were indeed selfish and didn't really want to do much other than enjoy themselves...

Curryong · #**1503** 07-06-2017, 02:44 PM

The train was going very very slowly due to a cow on the line.

duchessrachel · #**1504** 07-08-2017, 06:24 PM

I am about 100 pages into Philip Ziegler's biography "King Edward VIII" Oh my goodness!!! Prince Edward (late Duke of Windsor) is the biggest complainer. I want to scream "Man up, will you!!"

I just had to vent and I knew all of you would understand. Nevertheless, I can't put the book down.

AdmirerUS · #**1505** 07-08-2017, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duchessrachel

I tried to delete this and repost it, but it is not letting me delete it. Thus, there are two of the same post, this one and the one below.

I am about 100 pages into Philip Ziegler's biography "King Edward VIII" Oh my goodness!!! Prince Edward (late Duke of Windsor) is the biggest complainer. I want to scream "Man up, will you!!" I just had to vent and I knew all of you would understand. Nevertheless, I can't put the book down.

I quite agree. And from most bios, most credible accounts. Spoiled. Ill informed. Lacking curiosity. Demanding toadyism. And it is quite like watching a car crash happen - you don't want to watch but cannot turn away. In many ways, I always found her to be the better functioning adult.

And, to be clear, I never think of him as evil or bad. Just indulged and believing that was the natural order of things. His steadfast love of her is always what redeems him, IMHO. It really is an awesome, if tragic love story.

Denville · #**1506** 07-09-2017, 06:31 AM

His love for her? Mostly IMO dependence and very sad and pathetic. And I think that while he adored her, she did not reciprocate..

Curryong · #**1507** 07-11-2017, 04:45 AM

The tenor of the letter doesn't surprise me at all. It follows the usual form of David's communications to Freda Dudley Ward in the years following World War One. Moaning about the Royal round and his life generally, complaining about having to be away from his true love, supercilious about the people he met whom he thought disagreeable for the most part.

Edward actually was made for the self indulgent, pointless life he and Wallis lived after the Second World War. What an eye opener living in a small house in 1919 with wife and kiddies, having a dreary nine to five job and allowing about five shillings a week pocket money out of his wage to spend on himself, would have been, and how lucky he was not to have experienced it. That is, if he hadn't been killed in the trench warfare of 1914-18 beforehand.

Osipi · #**1508** 07-11-2017, 05:07 AM

I believe that David actually saw a "normal" life to be idyllic and a true freedom much like many people today gaze upon the lifestyles of the rich and famous and believe their lives would be so much better if they could live like them. The old "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" concept. He saw all the advantages that would relieve him of the disadvantages he saw in royal life but had no concept of the hardships, the struggle of day to day living and the total difference of society outside of the circles he frequented.

Even after the abdication, David very much disparaged at how they were treated. Instead of being relieved that he could live his life as he chose to, he whined about the lack of money, the lack of a HRH for his wife and the fact that he was no longer necessary in the UK. He got his other side of the fence somewhat and once again, the grass was greener back where he was to begin with.

He was typically the sort of person that wanted his cake and eat it too.

Denville · #**1509** 07-11-2017, 03:09 PM

well I'm sure most of us are like that. I don't greatly like David but I would hardly say that whinging about one's job, or feeling that life would be beter if one had a differet job or life or more money/less money etc is hardly unusual.
He saw the disadvantages of fame and fortune. Those of us who work hard for a meager lving might well think "If I only had some of that fame and fortune.."

Curryong · #**1510** 07-11-2017, 10:22 PM

Yes, of course people yearn for more or less than what they have sometimes. And that's the operative word, Sometimes. However, most of us don't keep at it constantly for years and years and years.

It's been a long while since I read a book that was published that was full of David's letters to Mrs Dudley Ward, but as far as I can remember it was about 95% full of his moaning about his lot.

If it was just letting off steam to his lover and confidante it would be different but there were other letters, other reminiscences from friends and acquaintances and members of his staff etc that show that whining about his Royal role, the tours of the Empire, the people he met on engagements, his parents particularly his father, etc, were part of his nature.

David may not have been nervy, as the Duke of York was, but he was a great deal more dissatisfied with his life than any other member of his family and that included the King his father, who had far greater responsibilities.

Osipi · #**1511** 07-12-2017, 02:50 AM

The more I read, the more I am inclined to believe that David was the original role model for "Party Prince". Its what he did best.

You're right, Curryong, in remembering that Ziegler's biography has loads of the letters he wrote to Mrs. Dudley Ward and that they were constantly filled with bemoaning his state of affairs and how unhappy he was with them. There was a lot of moaning and groaning about just about everything. Its almost as if this person focused more on the negative things of life rather than the positives and was always wanting things to be different.

With reading the *huge* Shawcross biography of the Queen Mum now, during the first years of her marriage to Bertie, her letters are different and filled with how amazing she has found some things to be (such as going on safari) and I hadn't realized before that at that time, Elizabeth and Bertie were really quite fond of David and close with him and very often stepped out for the evening with him. Three really good friends. I haven't gotten up to the part about Wallis and the abdication yet but if what I've read so far is any indication, it will contain some really good insights into how it affected these three people personally.

Curryong · #**1512** 07-12-2017, 03:17 AM

Yes, from Shawcross and everyone else I've read about the Queen Mother, she was always very much a zesty, 'cup half full' sort of person. I'm sure all three were marvellous friends. However, from what I've read the Yorks saw much less of Edward after the romance with Wallis became serious.

The book I was referring to in my earlier post was one solely made up of letters to the (IMO) long suffering Freda Dudley Ward in the 1920's and a little before. I think it was 'Letters from a Prince: Letters from Edward Prince of Wales to Mrs Freda Dudley Ward' edited by Rupert or Robert Godfrey.

I think they were found by a relative of Mrs DW and made up into a published book. I remember starting it with great anticipation, but fair dinkum, if I wasn't a history buff, and it didn't contain new info and photos I probably wouldn't have finished it! The letters, (mostly from him AFAIR) were a mixture of whining and complaining and baby talk of the most nauseating kind!

Osipi · #**1513** 07-12-2017, 03:31 AM

Oh sheeesh. I hated that baby talk. Maybe he thought it was cute but in reality it was nauseating. I think I'm going to give the letters book a miss but then again, it may nag at me until I actually buy it and read it. Any insight is good insight in getting the whole picture.

Queen Claude · #**1514** 07-12-2017, 05:27 AM

I am a much bigger admirer of George V than David / Edward VIII / Duke of Windsor but vis a vis David, George V was the father from hell turned boss from hell. To be sure David was a whiner but he was awesome at the public side of a job that he hated, questioned the relevance of and for which he got no recognition or validation from his boss and yet the boss would not hesitate to direct nit-picky criticisms his way.

IIRC during that timeframe David occasionally shirked his duties, and again whined a lot, but overall he took on the work he was given and, in numerous ways, did an exemplary job and contributed significantly to the BRF "brand" during the 1920s and early 1930s.

Curryong · #**1515** 07-12-2017, 06:16 AM

Yes George V terrified his sons. However he directed harsh criticism towards all of them, not just David. And it's true that the Prince of Wales was THE glamorous figure of the Royal family between the wars and performed his public role well.

Privately and behind the scenes however, Edward really was an absolute disgraceful person, even by the very different standards of the earlier 20th century.

Fractured Fairy Tale: An Archive of a Royal Romance - The New York Times

'What I wouldn't give to chuck in this P of W. job. I'm so fed up with it you know and don't fit in.'

From his letters to Freda: any woman paying him attention is 'a bitch'.
Beggars in India are 'the scum of the East' (though he pays attention to them in order to annoy his handlers.)
Prince Regent Hirohito of Japan is 'a prize monkey', the Chinese 'breed like rabbits' and the Maltese are 'the worst dagoes possible'.

Now I'm sure some of Edward's views were unfortunately shared by others at the time, but here is the future Governor of the Church of England's opinion on taking Communion---'Sentimental sordidness.'

According to this article some of Freda's missing letters back to him probably included exhortations to buck up, to cheer up, to take on worthwhile charities she was interested in. One certainly hopes so!

duchessrachel · #**1516** 07-12-2017, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osipi

The more I read, the more I am inclined to believe that David was the original role model for "Party Prince". Its what he did best.

You're right, Curryong, in remembering that Ziegler's biography has loads of the letters he wrote to Mrs. Dudley Ward and that they were constantly filled with bemoaning his state of affairs and how unhappy he was with them. There was a lot of moaning and groaning about just about everything. Its almost as if this person focused more on the negative things of life rather than the positives and was always wanting things to be different.

With reading the *huge* Shawcross biography of the Queen Mum now, during the first years of her marriage to Bertie, her letters are different and filled with how amazing she has found some things to be (such as going on safari) and I hadn't realized before that at that time, Elizabeth and Bertie were really quite fond of David and close with him and very often stepped out for the evening with him. Three really good friends. I haven't gotten up to the part about Wallis and the abdication yet but if what I've read so far is any indication, it will contain some really good insights into how it affected these three people personally.

I just finished the Shawcross book. It is really good. I too was really surprised at how close Elizabeth, Bertie,and David were early on. I am currently reading the Ziegler book.

Denville · #**1517** 07-12-2017, 04:04 PM

I didn't exactly think of David as a party lover per se. I think he liked "home life" as well, lazy life of course, just hanging out with his girlfriend and her kids a lot of the time. I think he worked fairly hard at his job as Prince in his youth, even if he was getting more and more fed up with the job as time went on, and he was always spoiled and selfish. but I didn't see him as a wild partier.. I got the feeling that at least when married to Wallis, his parties were formal dinner parties and balls, of course by then he was a bit old for coke sniffing or dancing the Black Bottom.

Furienna · #**1518** 07-13-2017, 10:45 AM

Not that I have read that book, that has been discussed lately in this thread. But I feel a need to nevertheless step in here and yet again defend David a little.

Yes, some people are "whiners". And yet again, I have not read these letters. But my gut instinct about a person, who seems to never be satisfied with anything, would be that he's deeply unhappy with his life, and maybe that he's got a melancholic disposition. And again, I can't really say if that was true of Edward VIII or not. But I leave it open as a possibility.

And as for those remarks about other cultures, that would be seen as racist today... Did you expect anything better from a person from that era, whether he was the Prince of Wales or not?

Curryong · #**1519** 07-13-2017, 12:15 PM

Not everyone who was an adult between the wars was a racist. Yes, there was more racism about then among all classes of society but that doesn't mean that everyone should be tarred with the same brush.

I've never heard for example that Edward's brother Bertie, then Duke of York, let loose with epithets about other races. And for Edward that sort of thing didn't finish with the war.

Lilli Palmer, the actress, knew him well and the Windsors visited her and her husband Rex Harrison in Italy. She wrote in her autobiography that he was fond of labelling people 'yids' and she often heard him use the term in conversation, (she herself was Jewish) and that was in the 1950's, long after everyone knew about concentration camps, gassings etc.

I don't know whether Edward suffered from clinical depression or not. However there is no evidence that he ever sought treatment for it, nor did Wallis ever urge him to seek it.

Denville · #**1520** 07-13-2017, 01:21 PM

I don't believe that George VI's private letters have been published.. if they were, he might come across as more racist than he does, and so wold the QM.. as we know.
Edward, its sometime since I read a bio so I dont know if he was more unpleasantly racist in his views than most people at that time.
Yes he was a whiner but he kept it mostly to maoning to his friends and loved ones... he didn't do so In public and while he did behave badly at times during his POW years, mostly I would say, he did the job, and kept his moaning for private life. He was IMO an unhappy unsatisfied person, I think that he reacted badly to his parents' lack of overt love for him.. and was seeking "unconditional mother love" from the women in his life most notably of course Wallis.
but he did slog it out at the boring wrork as POW, he tired to get to the Front in WWI, and his worst behaviour came along after the WWII, when he did not even have the brain to conceal his lack of sympathy for Jews and his belief that "Hitler wasn't such a bad chap.." and seems to have been restlessly trying for 30 years to make some kind of life In café society, with Wallis.. and find some satisfaction in that...