Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[AdmirerUS]

Originally Posted by Lady Nimue

I agree with your summation. ...
Watching that PBS show on Wallis changed whatever mind I had about Wallis. I realized what an unenviable position she was in. With Ernest leaving her ('arranging' to leave her in consultation with David without her knowledge, imagine her hurt and despair when she learned that!), her only option (really) was David (given her age and the notoriety and 'the times' for a woman)...

I quite agree, though as her choices in men were serially bad and self-centered, I have problems empathizing with Wallis. I know, it was a different age, but she is a great example of choosing men and then realizing "be careful what you wish for..."

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Denville;196534e4

[....]
Yes I think the UK did dodge a bullet because David would have probably been reluctant to fight Nazi Germany and might have been willing to be a puppet King for the Nazis

The British Sovereign has zero comma zero say in the business of the UK Government and the decisions of the Supreme Command. In 1914-1918 the Sovereign had no any say in the fact that his country went into war and saw his cousins the German Emperor, the Russian Tsar and the Austrian Emperor with "their" forces on the same battlefield.

A King Edward VIII had not prevented his country declaring war on Germany, when the British and French guarantees to Poland were challenged. Like everyone in those days also Edward would go into the maelstrom of shocking events and become catapulted as the focus point of the Nation. Possibly it would equally have been his finest hours as King, as it was for his brother.

That the King would have had ány influence on war-making is most unlikely. Exactly like Her Majesty is confronted with a fait accompli when Teresa May thought it was a good idea to rush to Trump and invite him for a State Visit. The Queen will receive him. No matter her personal thoughts, the massive opposition. She has to do it. Teresa wants it. And she will do it.

No difference with Edward VIII. Churchill wants this and the King indeed will do what Churchill wants. Note that this King was an excellent and popular Prince of Wales. The strange antics all started when he was exiled from Court and country. Away from any wise counsel and steering.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Dee Anna

I was thinking more in terms of what the RF are, rather than English politics; they are merely the puppets that represent the UK (thriving) business that is the RF - no one seriously believes in the existence of Devine Families these days! Or at least one would hope so!

Suspect David knew that too and opted out, but with a wingwoman who was there right to the end.

Whatever the begrudgers say, they can't take that away!

well yes of course he knew the RF are not "Divine". he just didn't want the duties of being royal ,only the perks. And Wallis stayed with him because she had little choice. Where would she go, after being married ot an Ex King? She would also be vilified by those who admired the "great love story".

[eya]

The remarkable story of how the government of Stanley Baldwin spied on the House of Windsor during the tumultuous mid-1930s is being told in a Channel 4 documentary, Spying On The Royals.

How Stanley Baldwin SPIED on Edward VIII | Daily Mail Online

Wallis Simpson's extraordinary collection of lovers | Daily Mail Online

"A Nazi diplomat, Mayfair car dealer and a bisexual Woolworth heir: so did she ever truly love the King who gave up his throne for her?"

[Queen Claude]

Edward VIII - The Uncrowned King

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTqNpCladNY

[Denville]

Originally Posted by eya

Wallis Simpson's extraordinary collection of lovers | Daily Mail Online

"A Nazi diplomat, Mayfair car dealer and a bisexual Woolworth heir: so did she ever truly love the King who gave up his throne for her?"

I don't think she loved anyone..

[Curryong]

I think Wallis was fond of Edward and enjoyed the lifestyle he could give her. In love? I think not. However, once they were married she was stuck and couldn't ever leave.

[Curryong]

A damning, if long, summation of the persona and character of Edward by Tommy Lascelles, who served him for over twenty years as (Assistant) Private Secretary and his view of the role Mrs Simpson played in the run-up to the Abdication Crisis, following the death of King George V.

This is an interesting portrait of the Duke of Windsor by a man who knew him very well.

Prince Charmless: A damning portrait of Edward VIII | Daily Mail Online

[rominet09]

These two articles were extremely interesting....Thanks for having brought them to our notice !

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Curryong

I think Wallis was fond of Edward and enjoyed the lifestyle he could give her. In love? I think not. However, once they were married she was stuck and couldn't ever leave.

true. Perhaps I was a bit harsh on her.. maybe she loved Donahue, because it was a rather bizarre romance so what else coud explain it but some kind of love? I think htat she was fond of Edward, and of Ernest Simpson.. but she was foolish in engaging in such an intense romance with her royal lover as I think that it annoyed Ernest and he took up with Mary Rafferty?? was it? his mistress whom he later married.
I think she liked Edward enjoyed the affair and let it take over her life because it was fun and she was admired as a royal girlfriend and was pampered and amused.. and then she realised that Edward was madly in love with her and woud not give her up. she had tried to juggle both men and ended up with ES giving up on their marriage and Edward insisting on marrying her.
but I think while she liked Edward and enjoyed his company, she found him rather boring and too cloying, and got restless.. but she coud not really leave him, even when she was fed up and was attracted to Jimmy Donahue.
All the same I feel she was a hard and selfish woman who was chiefly out for her onwn amusement in relationships or what she could get out of them

[Lady Nimue]

Originally Posted by Curryong

A damning, if long, summation of the persona and character of Edward by Tommy Lascelles, who served him for over twenty years as (Assistant) Private Secretary and his view of the role Mrs Simpson played in the run-up to the Abdication Crisis, following the death of King George V.

This is an interesting portrait of the Duke of Windsor by a man who knew him very well.

Prince Charmless: A damning portrait of Edward VIII | Daily Mail Online

Fascinating read. Made more enjoyable because he is an excellent writer.

Consider this elegantly stated, albeit damning, summation: "He had, in my opinion and experience, no comprehension of the ordinary axioms of rational, or ethical, behaviour; fundamental ideas of duty, dignity and self-sacrifice had no meaning for him. And so isolated was he in the world of his own desires that I do not think he ever felt affection - absolute, objective affection - for any living being, not excluding the members of his own family."

[royal rob]

I agree very interesting

[Queen Claude]

The Windsors - Nazi Sympathisers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HBektXvZPc

[Moonmaiden23]

Originally Posted by Lady Nimue

Fascinating read. Made more enjoyable because he is an excellent writer.

Consider this elegantly stated, albeit damning, summation: "He had, in my opinion and experience, no comprehension of the ordinary axioms of rational, or ethical, behaviour; fundamental ideas of duty, dignity and self-sacrifice had no meaning for him. And so isolated was he in the world of his own desires that I do not think he ever felt affection - absolute, objective affection - for any living being, not excluding the members of his own family."

OUCH!! I mean..no affection for any living being...not even his beloved(I thought) Wallis?!

[Osipi]

Perhaps what the author was alluding to is that David's love of Wallis was not an unconditional love for another person but more so as one would love a possession. How Wallis made him feel, how Wallis soothed him and different aspects of loving someone because of what they can provide for oneself.

Its purely supposition as we do know that once David latched onto Wallis, there was nothing that was ever going to convince him to let go. He probably did deeply love her but we'll never know the reasons why he loved her.

As far as being Nazi sympathizers, at the time that they were drawn to the ideals of the Third Reich, it was mostly a ideal of how a society should be similar to Socialism or Facism and how political parties are drawn to certain modes of thinking such as Democrats, Republicans, Whigs and Tories. You get the picture. With us looking back at the Nazi party in hindsight, we tend to forget that many, many people thought Hitler was right and genius. The horrors and the heinous acts that stemmed from Hitler's regime in WWII had not even been thought of yet.

[Curryong]

I certainly don't think that Edward and Wallis were full-blown Nazis. They were however very right wing (as the Duke of Kent also was) and many of the Nazi philiosophies were, to put it bluntly, not disagreeable, to them.

Yes, many British aristocrats were right wing and appeasers before the war, but what are we to make of the Windsors' continuing close friendship with Sir Oswald Mosley (one time leader of the British Fascists) and his wife Diana, long after the war. Neither Oswald or Diana were unrepentant in their views until their deaths.

I don't think these sorts of friendships can be completely excused by being very anti Communist, by wanting to appease Nazism and prevent war, when the couple were regular guests of the Windsors in the 1960s.

Previously, the Windsors had enjoyed several friendships with shadowy wealthy international figures before and during the war and most had links with Nazi Germany.

Certainly Edward shared an anti-Semitic streak with Adolf and his circle. I remember reading Lilli Palmer's autobiography. Lilli was Jewish and wrote of the Duke and Duchess's yearly visits to her and her then husband Rex Harrison's home by a beautiful Italian bay, and how the Duke would throw 'Yids' carelessly into his conversation when talking after dinner in their garden. This wasn't in the 1940s or even '30s but the 1950s.

[Osipi]

I'm really not that widely read on David and Wallis and am finding reading this thread very interesting.

With all I know about David and his penchant for not being overly involved or even really wanting to be involved in the political scene and was definitely not king material, I would hazard a guess that when they entertained or were entertained by various friends and couples, the talk didn't run very deep. David and Wallis always came across to me as loving to live the high life and socialize and see and be seen. I don't think world politics would have been of much interest to this couple if they could party. Their friends may have been actively involved in social activism but I would hazard a guess that when they were with the Windsors, it was purely for entertainment.

This may be totally off the wall but its just my suppositions. People are sometimes judged by the company they keep but there'd be exceptions to that rule if they kept company with people solely out for a good time.

[Curryong]

On the contrary there were signs, even when his father was alive, that David did want to make his views known on the international situation. There was a speech the POW made to a returned serviceman's club in the mid 1930s for example in which he appealed for understanding and appeasement towards the Germans in order to prevent war. This caused a stir and a reproof from George V. David made it very clear in the 1930's that friendship with a modern, go ahead state like Germany was vital to Britain's interests and those of the Empire. I believe he wouldn't have minded a non aggression pact between the two powers at all.

The Mosleys weren't party people and were among the Windsors most intimate friends. The Duke and Sir Oswald had many discussions after the war on national and international politics.

The Harrisons were very much younger, not such confidantes and it may have been that their house and its surroundings were a great attraction. However, it was an indication of the Duke's anti-Semetism, at a time when people knew about Auschwitz and Dachau and were a lot more circumspect in their conversation about Jewish people, that he was still using derogatory terms to describe members of the Jewish faith.

[Osipi]

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the Windsors. Seems I need to get busy and start reading more about these two fascinating people to totally understand them and the world they lived in.

I just always have pictured David as being more of a narcissist type person with little to no interest in "deeper" subject such as the world around him.

What books would you suggest?

[Pranter]

I think some of the key players in the UK at the time were somewhat relieved about the abdication due to some of the views he'd expressed about the Germans.


LaRae