Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[Denville]

I
In a pre-DNA age paternity was impossible to really prove. Edward may have believed in several of these cases that he was the father (he appeared pathetically happy when he thought Freda was pregnant) when it wasn't the case at all, and in fact a boyfriend or other male was responsible.

I wouldn't have put him down for a man who was very keen ot be a father? But perhaps if It were Freda's child -he was very fond of her, and he would have had the fun side of fatherhood without any of the work or responsibility. Freda's husband would likely have agreed to acknowledge paternity and Ed would have had a child without any hard work!
I always found it hard to imagine that he would have "married a suitable girl" and had kids, that he would have to have some real input and work with.. or that he and Wallis would have children. They struck me as SO selfishly and weirdly wrapped up in each other.. (or at least he was with her) that they wouldn't want children.
But maybe if he was with Wallis, while he adored her, he did miss having a child?
he was said to be very fond of Freda DW's daughters.
but there are always stories about royals, that they have fathered children and it is impossilbe to say and easy to make up something.. Hint that a child is the royals' offspring....-and that the family have been given money to pay for its education or what have you...
or gossip around the teatables that Little Mrs X was friendly with the prince when he was visiting, and that she produced a baby - well just about 9 months after his departure ec...
Or that Miss So and so left town a few months after he was on a tour in X...
Gossip and newspapers love such stories but they are not proven,.
I just do feel that he wasn't very fertile.. not through mumps or anything but just not everyone is as fertile as everyone else..
George VI and Q Eliz only had the 2 daughters when they would have problaby liked a son... and it was a few years before they had teir first child.
So perhaps Edward suspected he wasn't the most fertile man and that's why he was pleased that he might have fathered a child with Freda

 

[Curryong]

Yes, I agree. There are always rumours swirling around Royal tours, especially in those days when local bigwigs like squatters (big landowner sheep farmers) competed with each other to give balls and parties and picnics in honour of the Royal guest(s.) Dozens of guests and the prettiest girls in the district who could be invited. Of course, some couldn't.

With regard to Bertie Duke of York and his wife Elizabeth, I always thought their family was limited because, unlike her mother who had an enormous family, Elizabeth had to have Caesarians for her two girls. In those days (and even later) the advice given to women who had to have Caesarians was 'two babies and no more'.

 

[Denville]

YesWith regard to Bertie Duke of York and his wife Elizabeth, I always thought their family was limited because, unlike her mother who had an enormous family, Elizabeth had to have Caesarians for her two girls. In those days (and even later) the advice given to women who had to have Caesarians was 'two babies and no more'.

I think that's probably why they stopped at the 2 girls but also it was 3 years before Eliz was born and then 4 years later before Margaret arrived. So I suspect that either they deliberately limited their family because - well who knows? Perhaps they were a few years conceiving Eliz and then after the Caesarian they were waiting a few more years before putting her through all that again.. but I'm sure they would have liked a son.
Or perhaps they weren't that fertile a couple, and had difficulty conceiving babies.

 

[Denville]

Yes, I agree. There are always rumours swirling around Royal tours, especially in those days when local bigwigs like squatters (big landowner sheep farmers) competed with each .

.

well David was a handsome young prince and future king. There may have been a few young ladies who would count their (unmarried) virtue well lost to have a fling with him, and maybe to bear him a child. (after all, they would problably be able to make up some story, and there would be financial support etc in exchange for discretion.
But I still feel that David would not have been up for having kids out of wedlock if only because of G V's certain fury and disapproval.
So I suspect that there was some boasting indirectly, by allowing hints to float around..that the Prince sent a birthday card to a child every year...

 

[Iluvbertie]

Don't forget the money and paying the school fees at a private boarding school and continuing to pay the child for over 50 years.

Without ever using the term 'father' the acknowledgement was understood locally that the child was Edward's and that he was ensuring she was supported without being allowed to call him 'Dad'.

If Edward hadn't slept with the mother why would he pay for the next 50+ years?

 

[Queen Claude]

well David was a handsome young prince and future king. There may have been a few young ladies who would count their (unmarried) virtue well lost to have a fling with him, and maybe to bear him a child. (after all, they would problably be able to make up some story, and there would be financial support etc in exchange for discretion.
But I still feel that David would not have been up for having kids out of wedlock if only because of G V's certain fury and disapproval.
So I suspect that there was some boasting indirectly, by allowing hints to float around..that the Prince sent a birthday card to a child every year...

I don't know if Edward/David fathered any of the people being discussed, but he did not have a good relationship with George V and a big part was his non-adherence to his father's wishes and ways of doing things.

 

[ladongas]

Live like a (former) King

It is possible to rent some of the buildings of La Moulin, the French country estate of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor through the Landmark Trust:

The Landmark Trust | Search & Book

It's fun to look at the pictures even if you are not actually going to stay there. They also have vacation rentals at Hampton Court.

 

[Denville]

I don't know if Edward/David fathered any of the people being discussed, but he did not have a good relationship with George V and a big part was his non-adherence to his father's wishes and ways of doing things.

I don't think he would willingly have let himself in for a serious telling off by his father..
yes over smaller things like how he dressed, his partying, etc he would stand up to him... because he had some "backing" from his contemporaries for "dressing like a cad" as George put it.
But over an issue like fathering children, I don't think so. George would have to know, and he would be raging -and even David's friends/brothers would problaby disapprove and say that he should be more careful, as nowadays having illegitimate children wasn't acceptable.

 

[Queen Claude]

George V was blowing his stack over how Edward and others dressed, women wearing nail polish and other such things. He was so over the top over those things that I don't think his apoplexy over one of his sons having an out-of-wedlock child could amount to anything much greater. I just don't see Edward getting hot and heavy with a woman, or planning to get hot and heavy with a woman, and the thing that caused him to take precautions was incurring the wrath of his father or brothers. He did not seem to be worried about incurring the wrath of his father nor his brothers when his father was very ill and he chose to not to immediately return to England.

As far as his brothers were concerned, one was allegedly a drug-addicted bisexual who had one or more children with a woman/women he was not married to.

 

[Denville]

George V was blowing his stack over how Edward and others dressed, women wearing nail polish and other such things. He was so over the top over those things that I don't think his apoplexy over one of his sons having an out-of-wedlock child could amount to anything much greater. I just don't see Edward getting hot and heavy with a woman, or planning to get hot and heavy with a woman, and the thing that caused him to take precautions was incurring the wrath of his father or brothers. He did not seem to be worried about incurring the wrath of his father nor his brothers when his father was very ill and he chose to not to immediately return to England.

As far as his brothers were concerned, one was allegedly and drug-addicted bisexual who had one or more children with a woman/women he was not married to.

Well yes it could. His fussing about men wearing modern clothes or women dressing in short skirts was something that had become old fashioned by the time he did it.. but one of the sons doing something so daft as have an illegitimate child would be something that would have been a scandal. I don't believe that David wanted them himself... so he'd problaby expect his girlfriends to take precautions.. it was different with Freda DW because she was a long term mistress and had a husband albeit separated.
I haven't heard of the D of Kent having children by anyone except his wife. he did have a drug problem and yes he was involved in sexual affairs with men, but these were things that could be concealed..to a large extent. A child is a living breathing "problem".
I dont beleive that the Duke's affairs or his drug taking were known outside society circles, but a child, esp if born to some girl outside the royal circle who might not "know the rules" woudl IMO be much more dangerous. I suppose as I said, it might have happened, perhaps once, but if So George woud have fumed, rowed and finally paid up with what he hoped was a tight agreement that it would be kept secret... But I dont think there would be more than one.

 

[Queen Claude]

The original question is would Edward take into account incurring his father's wrath when it comes when it came to his sexual behavior particularly having a child to a woman he was not married to, and I still say that the answer to that is no. I think that some of your points actually support my assertion, as you stated Edward was OK with having a child with Freda Dudley Ward, a local woman who was married to a member of Parliament.

 

[Dee Anna]

I wonder what Edward (and Wallis) would make of the fact that his reason for abdication would be made irrelenvent by his niece and her government ..... in order to allow her own son, in the same situation take the throne?

 

[Lee-Z]

I wonder what Edward (and Wallis) would make of the fact that his reason for abdication would be made irrelenvent by his niece and her government ..... in order to allow her own son, in the same situation take the throne?

A different time, a different situation, I bet Edward was glad he didn't have to be king after all, and in my humble opinion Brittain should be glad about it too..

 

[Curryong]

Yes, but although the romance between Freda Dudley Ward and Edward was known in Society at that time, (she was referred to as 'the Prince's little piece of fluff' by Diana, Duff Cooper's wife, in the early 1920's) Freda was 'safe'. She was married, not then separated, to a man then quite prominent in London Society. Therefore it would have been a 'foisting a cuckoo into another man's nest' situation, something that had been done in aristo circles for centuries.

That's very different to fathering a child on a young woman miles away from England; in Paris or Canada or Australian country districts, a situation that could lead to huge amounts of gossip, blackmail and/or lifelong payments or huge payoffs, as apparently happened to Edward's Parisian milliner friend.

Freda or any other married cohort in London Society was hardly likely to go squawking to officials at BP or the Prince himself, saying 'Your Royal Highness, you are going to do something for this child you've landed me with, AREN'T YOU...' In other words 'Pay up or else!' A whole lot riskier.

And it's quite clear in biographies I've read that Edward and his brothers were terrified of their father and his reactions to their behaviour, even when they were then verging on middle age. They would often murmur of rebellion but would subside once they were actually with the King.

 

[Queen Claude]

George V, like his grandmother Victoria, was not a fan of society. His father Edward VII/Albert Edward was embroiled in numerous scandals and most if not all of them were society related. Edward was known to go to brothels and yet I don't recall any scandals because one of his brothel paramours came forward but he was involved in scandals with other members of society like the Mordaunts and also the Tranby Croft/ royal baccarat affai. After Edward VII's death, Daisy Warwick, one of Edward's society mistresses tried to blackmail George V and threatened to release letters sent her by Edward VII/Albert Edward. Given this I think the notion that diddling around with society women was somehow safer had fallen by the wayside.

George V's sons may have feared him but it did not stop them from doing things that his father disapproved of.

 

[Curryong]

The Tranby Croft affair wasnt aimed at Edward though, he was a witness in the case, and the Mourdant affair was very quietened down because Lady Mordaunt was regarded as insane. He only appeared as a witness at that proceeding too.

Neither of these involved illegitimate children, and the only person attempting a spot of blackmail after the fact was Daisy Warwick, who was broke at the time.

George was a very strict father, it was a different time, the future Edward VIII was a very different character. Freda Dudley Ward kept her mouth shut about their long affair, Thelma Vanderbilt Furness did the same, and there were no babies involved. No-one has ever proven beyond doubt that Edward the future Duke of Windsor fathered one baby, let alone more.

 

[Queen Claude]

Both the Mordaunt and Tranby Croft affairs involved court cases and Albert Edward/Edward VII testified in both cases - a royal prince taking the stand in a court case was in and of itself a scandal. While he himself was not on trial you can say that in both cases "his side" prevailed and yet these scandals took their toll on his reputation - these and other mishaps resulted in him being booed when he made public appearances and William Gladstone commented that "the Prince of Wales is not respected," although that comment actually was made prior to the Tranby Croft affair. My point in bringing them up was not because they involved illegitimate children rather that these were society scandals and the notion that members of society banded together to conceal their shenanigans no longer applied.

As I initially stated I don't know if Edward/David fathered any of the people being discussed but what I am disagreeing with is that incurring the wrath of George V affected the romantic/sexual choices made by his sons, especially Edward/David and George/Duke of Kent. In the case of Bertie/George VI, I think that as he matured he and his father's values and outlooks aligned, but he also had a married lover and incurring his father's wrath was not enough for him to end the relationship, rather his father had to sweeten the pot and give him a dukedom in order for him to break up with a woman with whom he was already growing apart.

 

[Katrianna]

Was this the woman you were referring to as Bertie's mistress? The other night the program "Royal Wives At War" aired and it was about Wallis and Elizabeth's relationship. It also featured authors Andrew Morton, Lady Colin Campbell and another woman author whose name escapes me right now. I wasn't impressed by the program and it was heavily biased towards sympathy with David and Wallis. Elizabeth was rather portrayed as the scheming villain married to a rather bumbling, clueless Bertie. Has anyone else viewed this program? The Royals are portrayed by actors with the authors adding their own opinions so that's why there is a heavy bias.





Revealed for the first time - the other woman in the Queen Mother's marriage | Daily Mail Online

 

[Osipi]

Thanks for the reminder about the program Royal Wives at War. I just looked for it and watched it online.

I don't think it was very biased towards David and Wallis at all. If anything, it made Wallis look like a narcissist and a very self involved person and David as a weak willed man also self centered who put more importance on himself and had to have his ego stroked. Wallis got more than she bargained for as was notated in the program about the morning after the wedding. "Now what do I do?" Wallis found she was going to be responsible for David's life pretty much as he looked to others to plan his day for him up until the abdication.

I found the portrayal of the Queen Mum to be pretty much as I've read it to be as far as her dislike of Wallis. I especially liked the part where she stated she didn't hate or dislike Wallis because she would have to know her to dislike her. That sounds like the Queen Mum to a tee.

I definitely think the UK dodged a big bullet with David abdicating and Bertie coming to the throne.

 

[Queen Claude]

Was this the woman you were referring to as Bertie's mistress? The other night the program "Royal Wives At War" aired and it was about Wallis and Elizabeth's relationship. It also featured authors Andrew Morton, Lady Colin Campbell and another woman author whose name escapes me right now. I wasn't impressed by the program and it was heavily biased towards sympathy with David and Wallis. Elizabeth was rather portrayed as the scheming villain married to a rather bumbling, clueless Bertie. Has anyone else viewed this program? The Royals are portrayed by actors with the authors adding their own opinions so that's why there is a heavy bias.





Revealed for the first time - the other woman in the Queen Mother's marriage | Daily Mail Online

It was Sheila, Lady Loughborough. I'll post links about her in the George VI thread.

 

[Denville]

Yes, bn the early 1920's) Freda was 'safe'. She was married, not then separated, to a man then quite prominent in London Society. Therefore it would have been a 'foisting a cuckoo into another man's nest' situation, something that had been done in aristo circles for centuries.

Th
Freda or any other married cohort in London Society was hardly likely to go squawking to officials at BP or the Prince himself, saying 'Your Royal Highness, you are going to do something for this child you've landed me with, AREN'T YOU...' In other words 'Pay up or else!' A whole lot riskier.

And it's quite clear in biographies I've read that Edward and his brothers were terrified of their father and his reactions to their behaviour, even when they were then verging on middle age. They would often murmur of rebellion but would subside once they were actually with the King.

That was my impression of David at least. As he grew older I think he got less willing to be at least outwardly obedient, more resentful of his father and the whole DUTY thing and when he became King he was ready to kick out violently against the whole notion that he had duties to balance his privileges. But as a young man I think he was really scared of the old man.

Of course he lived his own life, and did what he wanted to, to a large extent...but he was still inclined to do it out of reach of his father.
While there might have been maybe one or 2 illegitimate children who were kept secret and not acknowledged, I am sure that both for his own sake and for fear of his father he would not have wished for there to be such children. If htey happened by accident Im sure he was not happy...

Freda DW having his baby would have been one thing.. she had a husband to cover up the scandal and she was devoted ot him and would be discreet. Some girl from outside the royal circles, esp a single girl, getting pregnant, would have been a real horror if it got out.
Such a girl might not have the code of absolute discretion and might become demanding or go to the papers.

 

[Denville]

Both the Mordaunt and Tranby Croft affairs involved court cases and Albert Edward/Edward VII testified in both cases - a royal prince taking the stand in a court case was in and of itself a scandal. While he himself was not on trial you can say that in both cases "his side" prevailed and yet these scandals took their toll on his reputation - these and other mishaps resulted in him being booed when he made public appearances and William Gladstone commented that "the Prince of Wales is not respected," although that comment actually was made prior to the Tranby Croft affair. My point in bringing them up was not because they involved illegitimate children rather that these were society scandals and the notion that members of society banded together to conceal their shenanigans no longer applied.

Ahe was already growing apart.

As far as I know, none of Ed VII's mistresses ever claimed a child by him. He was involved in some scandals, and of course "Society" could only cover up so far. If a case went to court, if the law of hte land was broken,they could not conceal it..
but while he may have fathered a child or 2, no woman seems to have said she was pregnant by him. Fathering bastards which was commonplace in the 18th C for royals had become by the 19th C much less acceptable.. and it seems to be the one thing that Ed VII was really discreet about.

 

[Dee Anna]

So, this child Freda Dudley Ward had, what is known of her?! It was a girl? Or is this total heresay?

 

[Curryong]

The dramatic untold twist of the abdication crisis and how Edward VIII tried to flee the country in his private plane - and sent the Government into a tailspin* | Daily Mail Online

Freda Dudley Ward only had two children, both girls, Angela and Penelope, who were born (presumably by her husband) years before she met Edward. Edward became very excited in 1922 when, at the height of his affair with Freda, it seemed as if she was pregnant, but it was a false alarm.

It was due to her daughter Angela speeding in her car in 1936 that Freda got in touch with Edward for the last time. Angela was to go to court over the offence. Freda wondered whether Edward could fix it for them and, not having heard from him for some time, (they remained great friends for years after the sexual component of their relationship ended) she rang him up.

The telephone operator at the Palace was used to her and in great distress told her that she had orders not to put her through. So, after nearly twenty years of him relying on her, phoning, calling on her, whining and complaining to her about his life etc., that was that!

Many years afterwards, when Angela was married, her husband had to write to the Duke of Windsor in a professional capacity and she added an affectionate postscript. (Freda's two daughters had always absolutely adored him.) He didn't reply to her but the note was found among his papers after his death.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

After he had set foot in England for his brother George VI's funeral, Edward was told that the allowance of about 10,000 pounds settled on him at the time of the abdication was to be discontinued. It was considered a personal favor of King George VI.

 

[Pranter]

It caused quite an ordeal I heard.


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

It certainly caused Edward, who was extremely fond of money, to go into meltdown!

 

[Pranter]

I seem to recall reading that Edward had plenty of money otherwise, that the 'allowance' was not his only source of income.


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Yes, the allowance was just a little sweetener to keep Edward happy, as at the time of the abdication he complained perpetually of strained finances. It was not true, as the new King's lawyers found out later. He had become Duke of Cornwall in May 1910, after his father George V ascended the throne, and therefore had enjoyed the income from the Duchy (plus all the accumulative interest before he became of age) for at least twenty years by 1936.

As we know, Edward also selfishly insisted on his brother Bertie, the new King, buying the monarch's private residences of Balmoral and Sandringham from him after his abdication. He also went on to receive an income while governing the Bahamas during the war.

Edward had plenty of money, and was indulged in France, where he and the Duchess inhabited a magnificent Paris mansion for decades at a peppercorn lease. However, like so many individuals who enjoy great wealth, he resented being deprived of anything.

 

[Pranter]

I remember reading about Bertie having to buy the residences back. I'm sorry but when you abdicate the position ...you lose the things that go with it.


LaRae