Duke and Duchess of Windsor (1894-1972) and (1895-1986)

[isayoldboy]

This book looks interesting: Letters from a Prince: Edward, Prince of Wales, to Mrs. Freda Dudley Ward. Anyone read it?

This was the source of the quote where Edward compared indigenous Australians to monkeys. If I ever had a high opinion of him, nothing remained after I read that.

 

[Iluvbertie]

This book looks interesting: etters from a Prince: Edward, Prince of Wales, to Mrs. Freda Dudley Ward. Anyone read it?

This was the source of the quote where Edward compared indigenous Australians to monkeys. If I ever had a high opinion of him, nothing remained after I read that.

To be fair to the man on that point in the early part of the 20th Century he wasn't alone.

I refuse to condemn someone for expressing opinions that were widely held at the time that they held them.

 

[isayoldboy]

To be fair to the man on that point in the early part of the 20th Century he wasn't alone.

I suppose I was being a little harsh. I certainly still admire FDR's war leadership while I am aware of the fact that he did some pretty dodgy things when he interned thousands of American Japanese. Many people in those days held absolutely deplorable views on race, women, what have you.

And Edward certainly wasn't alone in his racism. I was reading a letter that Clementine Churchill wrote to Winston the other day, where she casually used the word "******" to describe a minstrel show. And at the time, indeed into the late 1960s, Aboriginal children were still being forcibly removed from their families and "raised" in state-run schools.

But Edward expressed contempt here and I think that's a completely different thing altogether. His early support of Hitler can be explained easier, I think. The racism, even if it can be explained by the time in which he lived, still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Portrait of a very immature king: Yacht steward's scathing assessment of Edward VIII during abdication crisis | Mail Online

A scathing assessment of Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson has been unearthed in a letter from a crew member on their yacht during the abdication crisis.
The King is dismissed as a student who has not grown up while his lover is described as having a big mouth and a ‘metallic American voice’.
The author of the 16-page letter, thought to be a steward called Jim Richardson, wrote to his mother after a summer cruise in the Mediterranean in 1936 on board the Nahlin. He warned her that the letter should be destroyed after she read it.

 

[MARG]

Well if it is "for real" it is a wonderful example of the behaviour of the upper classes, aristocracy and royalty who treated their staff as if they were, for all intents and purposes, blind, deaf and dumb!

When you read things like this it makes you wonder how England avoided a very nasty 'Revolution". People in positions of power by virtue of birth living a life of unrestrained hedonism, entailing "Breakfasts" held and attended by many at 2 or 3 pm which, if you don't wake up until 11am or later, makes sense. Then there is tea, at 6pm and dinners and 9pm and after that . . . . . . they partyed. Actually, William and Harry seem like choirboys by comparison.

I don't know if the veracity of the provenence of this letter will hold up, after all, the writer or his mum could have made a bundle any time after WWII.

 

[EmpressRouge]

When you read things like this it makes you wonder how England avoided a very nasty 'Revolution". People in positions of power by virtue of birth living a life of unrestrained hedonism, entailing "Breakfasts" held and attended by many at 2 or 3 pm which, if you don't wake up until 11am or later, makes sense. Then there is tea, at 6pm and dinners and 9pm and after that . . . . . . they partyed. Actually, William and Harry seem like choirboys by comparison.

To be fair, there were aristocrats like that in France and Russia, and they had the most famous, violent revolutions.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

Never liked these two anyway. But Wallis had amazing jewels.

 

[Iluvbertie]

But the English did have a very nasty revolution and executed their King as well - in 1649. The also had another go in 1688/89 when they removed their King and parliament took control.

The powers that be though learnt a lesson then and regularly included increasing rights for the people to join them in government - 1832, 1867, 1884, 1910, 1918, 1928, 1968, 1999 - seeing more power to the people and less to the nobles etc.

 

[MARG]

Ah, I don't think that Royalty and the Aristocracy graced the trumbles and guillotine in great numbers in either instance. Nor did the "peasants" take up knitting big-time while they watched

 

[Iluvbertie]

Ah, I don't think that Royalty and the Aristocracy graced the trumbles and guillotine in great numbers in either instance. Nor did the "peasants" take up knitting big-time while they watched

That is because the English aristocracy either fled, were killed in the Civil War or were on the side of Cromwell (yes he had aristocratic supporters as well). They had 7 years of civil war to get organised.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I think that the abdication of Edward VIII was a very quiet sort of revolution. Had the governments of Britain and the Empire been fine with Wallis as Queen to a questionable Edward VIII, he probably wouldn't have abdicated. The politicians showed that the changes that were brought about by the English Civil War really did make parliament sovereign over the King.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Here's something I'm curious about the Duke and Duchess: their public support of Hitler before (and possibly during) World War II, how much of it might have stemmed from their desire for "revenge" on the royal family, politicians and probably the British people who refused to accept Wallis as queen/denial of HRH? We know that David was pro-German throughout his life and sympathetic to Germany after WWI and he became a Nazi sympathizer (probably due to Wallis' influence). But would they have taken the same, borderline treasonous, actions (e.g. that photo w/ Hitler) had they been king and consort or Wallis been given an HRH?

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Had David and Wallis been King and Consort.. no, I don't think they would have been the guests of Hitler in Germany. My guess is that Parliament would not allow the trip in the first place, if David were still the King.

He may have still been sympathetic to the Germans, but he would not have been able to voice such sympathies as the reigning monarch of Britain.

I do believe that Wallis may have had a lot to do with David's attitude toward the Nazis.. recently de-classified FBI files show that the FBI believed she was the one-time mistress of Joachim von Ribbentrop, and was paid by the Germans to obtain useful information. The Duke of Württemburg told the FBI that Ribbentrop and Wallis had been lovers.

At the time, she was still the wife of Edward Simpson and already David's mistress. She denied it, of course, but the FBI were concerned enough to inform President Roosevelt about the information they obtained.

They believed that Wallis was a frequent guest of Ribbentrop's at the German Embassy in London, while he was staying there in his role as German Ambassador to Britain. The FBI thought that Ribbentrop was using Wallis' access to David to funnel important information about the British to the German government.

Since David was clearly besotted with Wallis, she had great influence over every aspect of his life. And I do believe she was the brains between the two of them. Where he may have only been sympathetic before, the borderline treason was probably encouraged by Wallis.

After their marriage, she was enraged over the fact that she was denied the HRH and that she was not accepted into the family.. and she may have wanted to get some sort of revenge.. but it appears that she was involved with the Germans before she married David.. so the damage may have already been done.

When the Germans bombed Britain, Wallis was quoted as saying "I can't say I feel sorry for them" (meaning the British).

Certainly the British Establishment was concerned enough to move them out of Europe altogether, appointing David Governor of the Bahamas, where they lived from August 1939 until 1945.

 

[Lumutqueen]

But would they have taken the same, borderline treasonous, actions (e.g. that photo w/ Hitler) had they been king and consort or Wallis been given an HRH?

Definete No.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

I'm sorry, treason is treason.

 

[Zonk]

I don't consider the photo with Hitler to be a treasonous act.

Mind you, a lot of people not just David and Wallis (and they are not my faves although I have read a lot about them) considered Hitler to be Germany's salvation. They thought that Germany as a result of WWI got taken in regards to the sanctions that were placed upon them by the victors of WWI. As far as the lot were concerned, Hitler was a very attractive choice to Communism. So a lot of people were meeting with him and taking pictures.

It should be noted, however, that this was definitely before the truth of the Holocaust became known. It should be noted, however, that David (and perhaps Wallis) even after knowing about the horrors of the Holocaust still had the idea that if Hitler had been handled different pre 1939, a lot of things might be different. And again, they were not alone in their thinking.

David, however, could have been tried for treason when after WWII started (or right before it was getting ready to start) , when he was thinking of going public to announce that he differed from official government policy and advocated a British Republic. I beleive, that is treason.

One of my main issues with the Windsors, is that while the war was going on and people were dying....they were still concerned about being received at Court and official recognition of Wallis' HRH status. Just another example IMO of how selfish they were. They had a valid concern/complaints but sometimes you have to put things in perspective.

 

[Russophile]

It should be noted, however, that this was definitely before the truth of the Holocaust became known. It should be noted, however, that David (and perhaps Wallis) even after knowing about the horrors of the Holocaust still had the idea that if Hitler had been handled different pre 1939, a lot of things might be different. And again, they were not alone in their thinking.

Zonk, they all looked the other way during the Holocaust. Even those who KNEW what was going on. To give you an example, I read, (perhaps it was TIME magazine) about the liberation of a death camp near a German city. The American commander was so disgusted with the way he saw the Jews treated he went out and marched the whole city straight through the Concentration camp to show them what they let happen. The mayor ended up committing suicide by shooting himself. However, they KNEW.
Wallis and David certainly heard rumors of what was going on, they, like many others, just turned their heads. Krystallnicht and Night of the Long Knives was in 1938, the year after David and Wallis visited.

 

[Zonk]

Zonk, they all looked the other way during the Holocaust. Even those who KNEW what was going on. To give you an example, I read, (perhaps it was TIME magazine) about the liberation of a death camp near a German city. The American commander was so disgusted with the way he saw the Jews treated he went out and marched the whole city straight through the Concentration camp to show them what they let happen. The mayor ended up committing suicide by shooting himself. However, they KNEW.
Wallis and David certainly heard rumors of what was going on, they, like many others, just turned their heads. Krystallnicht and Night of the Long Knives was in 1938, the year after David and Wallis visited.

I totally agree Russo, a lot of people knew what was going on. There were tons of rumours about the camps.

My point is that when it was officialy known and the cameras were filming the deserted camps as well as the survivors, Wallis and Edward (along with a lot of other people) still thought Hitler should have been handled different. As if things were done differently pre 38, the camps wouldn't have happened.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Everyone knew what was going on, Auschwitz, Birkenau and Monowitz were all discovered by British Pilots, but they were told not to do anything because of the innocent lives that could be killed if it was bombed.

Wallis and David's envolvement with Hitler, was IMO to spite the royal family.

 

[Zonk]

Again, a lot of people (upper and middle classes) thought that Hitler was a great asset to Germany. So the Windsors were not alone in that regard.

The Windsors IMO did a lot of things that were very non supportive of the British war effort during WWII. Some of it was to spite the British Royal Family. But I also think a lot of it had to do with the fact, that the simply couldn't get past the fact that in their mind they were treated horribly by the BRF. Some people are so self involved that their actions are just irrational. Sometimes, they don't even recognize or accept the truth or that in some ways they were in the wrong.

 

[Mermaid1962]

MAJESTY magazine for October has an article about the Windsors' war effort while they were in Bermuda. I know that MAJESTY is positive about the BRF, and so I wondered how the Duke and Duchess were going to be portrayed given their opinions about Hitler. The writer managed to find some positive stories; in fact, the only negative coverage was about the murder that took place while they were there and the Duke's alleged interference with the investigation.

The Sir Harry Oakes Mystery: Unsolved Murder in the Bahamas

 

[Iluvbertie]

Everyone knew what was going on, Auschwitz, Birkenau and Monowitz were all discovered by British Pilots, but they were told not to do anything because of the innocent lives that could be killed if it was bombed.

Wallis and David's envolvement with Hitler, was IMO to spite the royal family.

Everyone did NOT know. Even people within the Nazi establishment didn't know let alone everyone else.

The British pilots didn't know - they had photos of camps but not photos of exactly what was happening within those camps. There were rumours of what was happening but they weren't confirmed until late 44.

However the suggestion to bomb the camps would have seen more people killed including the Jews in the camps. It wouldn't have stopped the killings as the Nazis would simply have buikt new ones or done something else. It would also have diverted bombers from the winning of the war. In addition the British and Americans would have had to fly across Soviet air space and the Soviets wouldn't give the permission to do so, nor would they do so themselves. The Soviets weren't that keen on helping the Jews anyway. I watched a recent documentary that showed Jews fleeing Germany and Poland to the USSR anf what did Stalin do - handed them over to the Nazis.

Churchill summed it up best when he knew and was asked about bombing the camps 'the best way to help the Jews is to win the war'.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Well I was just commenting on what I was told when I visited Auschwitz itself, and I believe what I said was true.
And whilst winning the war millions died.

But anyway this thread is about Wallis and Edward.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Well I was just commenting on what I was told when I visited Auschwitz itself, and I believe what I said was true.
And whilst winning the war millions died.

But anyway this thread is about Wallis and Edward.

If they told you 'everyone' knew they were wrong. Many Germans didn't know along with most of the rest of the world.

 

[NoorMeansLight]

I agree with Iluvbertie. This is what I understood from all the things I've read, too. The majority of the people didn't have a clue until '44. Off topic, but a necessary clarification.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I think it's fair to say that they knew that people were disappearing but assumed that they were being relocated for work duty or resettlement. The woman who tells her life story in "The Nazi Officer's Wife", though a Jew, had no idea that people were being exterminated until she heard it through an Allied radio broadcast. Because people had previously come back from prison camps after serving a term, she assumed that the same would happen to "her" people, including her mother. The possibility that so many people were being systematically murdered would have seemed unbelievable, especially to those who weren't near the death camps.

I know, I know....we're way off topic here.

I agree with Iluvbertie. This is what I understood from all the things I've read, too. The majority of the people didn't have a clue until '44. Off topic, but a necessary clarification.

 

[Zonk]

Yes we are

I have question for everyone, do you think that if allowed following the abdication and the marriage, do you think it was possible for the Windsor to come back to England and assume roles as junior members of the Royal Family.

Knowing what we know of their personalities and their perceived ambitions? And I am basing this that the Queens (Elizabeth and Mary) and George VI would be comfortable with their return.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Absolutely not. There would have been people who would have supported them and even a second court around them. Think about how destructive it was for the RF to have a living divorced Diana for a year only. Although I do believe that she died in an awful accident due to drunk driver, speed and her stupidity in not wearing a seatbelt, the RF are in a stronger position today than they would have been if she was still alive.

 

[Zonk]

So you think that the George VI was smart in keeping the Windsor out of England.

I would agree. Though its interesting to note that Edward and Wallis (moreso Edward) could never understand that.

 

[HM Queen Catherine]

Since the Duke of Windsor was excluded from the Civil List, he was privately paid an allowance by George VI. George threatened to cut off his allowance if Edward came back to Britain without an invitation.. this is probably the prime reason the Duke and Duchess stayed away.

By creating Windsor as a royal title, George also ensured that his brother could not stand for elections to the House of Commons, nor speak on political subjects in the House of Lords.. effectively silencing any voice he may have had in British government.

George and Edward were at odds for a long time, in any case, because Edward concealed just how wealthy he was at the time of his abdication. He had been hoarding money from the Duchy of Cornwall for years, and failed to mention it when the agreement was made for his allowance.

He also owned Sandringham House and Balmoral Castle outright.. they were his private property, inherited from his father.. and he made George pay him for both.

I'm sure George was quite put out by his brother financially, on top of everything else.. no wonder he didn't want him back in Britain.