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  #2341  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think that upper class people would have been judgy over an American qqeen, even if she was single, a quiet type and from a well bred well to do family... because the upper crust esp the ladies would think "How come an American has got him? Why not one of us?
and they mgiht think that an Americna would never quite fit in with the RF... but
Some aristocrats were not fans of other aristocrats even marrying Americans, Lady Violet Greville, mother of Charles Greville, 3rd Baron Greville who went onto to marry a wealthy American heiress, Olive Grace Kerr 9months after his mother wrote about decadence since American brides married aristocrats. Lady Violet Greville said “ The rich American has no traditions, no prejudices in favor of old customs, duties or responsibilities; she is essentially irresponsible, and measures everything by only one standard- money”. At the time her thoughts were considered be criticism of Lord Granard to Beatrice Livingston Mills.
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  #2342  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1 View Post
Some aristocrats were not fans of other aristocrats even marrying Americans, Lady Violet Greville, mother of Charles Greville, 3rd Baron Greville who went onto to marry a wealthy American heiress, Olive Grace Kerr 9months after his mother wrote about decadence since American brides married aristocrats. Lady Violet Greville said “ The rich American has no traditions, no prejudices in favor of old customs, duties or responsibilities; she is essentially irresponsible, and measures everything by only one standard- money”. At the time her thoughts were considered be criticism of Lord Granard to Beatrice Livingston Mills.
well yes, as was said by someone at the time, the lower classes minded Wallis being divorced but the upper classes minded more that she was an American.
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  #2343  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
But Edward was involved with Wallis long before he became king.
Yes, but the Prince of Wales fooling around with a divorced woman on her second husband is a far cry from the King fooling around with a twice-divorced woman with two living ex-husbands. Perhaps they thought that once George V died, he'd break things off with her since his situation was no longer what it had once been, but when it was obvious that he very much intended to marry her, thus making her Queen Wallis...well, that just wasn't going to happen.
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  #2344  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
Yes, but the Prince of Wales fooling around with a divorced woman on her second husband is a far cry from the King fooling around with a twice-divorced woman with two living ex-husbands. Perhaps they thought that once George V died, he'd break things off with her since his situation was no longer what it had once been, but when it was obvious that he very much intended to marry her, thus making her Queen Wallis...well, that just wasn't going to happen.
well, the point i was making was that it was his affair with Wallis that pushed the GOvt into telling him he had to give Wallis up or go.. that he could not marry her and remain King. I dont think that the Govt were ready to get rid of him in 1936 due to his carelessness, or lack of responsibility. It was the affair with Wallis and the fear that Edw was going to marry her.
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  #2345  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:42 PM
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British royals traditionally married other European royals, British princes marrying British aristocrats was a fairly recent phenomenon in the early 20th century, so the aristocracy was used to showing obeisance to non-Brits, although admittedly an American would not be seen as the same kind of foreigner as a European princess. I can believe that the aristocracy would have a problem with the King marrying an American - and I recall reading a similar thing about the aristocracy had a problem with Wallis being American, whereas the middle and working class had a problem with her being divorced. However, I cannot believe that if Wallis had no other "flaws" that the aristocracy's anti-American sentiment would have been enough to cause an abdication crisis.

I am in the camp that it was the prospect of Edward VIII marrying a divorcee that led to the abdication. Edward's fitness for the crown had been discussed for years, however the folks who wanted him not to be King did not / could not get rid of him when he was Prince of Wales nor when he was King, that is not until Wallis filed for divorce and they knew that the groundwork was being laid for the King to marry her.

So while there had been people who thought Edward was not fit to be King, I don't think that there was a strong enough will to oust him for his non-Wallis related shenanigans and short-comings. And as I think someone else implied, what grounds would the UK and Dominion governments have to formally remove him, or alternatively to hatch a murder plot against him? I don't think that admiring and/or sympathizing with Germany would be considered sufficient grounds in 1936. Bear in mind that less than two years later, George VI, Edward VIII's brother and successor, took the (unprecedented?) action of appearing on the Buckingham Palace balcony with a Prime Minister, which was in recognition of Neville Chamberlain signing a peace agreement with German Chancellor / Fuhrer Adolf Hitler.
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  #2346  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Quite a few American women had married into the British aristocracy. The Countess of Grantham in Downton Abbey is a famous fictional example! Real life examples include Jennie Jerome and Consuelo Vanderbilt. The Warfields of Baltimore weren't in their social league, admittedly, but I think an American woman might have been accepted had she not been a divorcee, and also not been having a full-on relationship with the Prince of Wales before they were married.

It would have been unexpected, but, had the Prince of Wales announced that he wanted to marry one of the Vanderbilts, say, and there had never been a breath of scandal attached to the woman concerned, I think the marriage would have been accepted.
The likes of the Vanderbilts were accepted by the British aristocracy because many peers were broke and in real danger of losing their estates and those American heiresses were extremely rich by the standards of the time. In fact, by comparison, there was probably no family in the UK as rich as the Vanderbilts for example.

Edward VIII didn't have a need to marry an American heiress because, unlike some bankrupt dukes, earls or viscounts, he didn't need to marry for money. If he wanted to marry an American heiress for love, that would still be frowned upon as the King was still expected at the time to marry a bride from a sovereign (or former sovereign) family (his brothers married daughters of peers, but they were not expected to be the King). Still, if the chosen bride were unmarried and had a clean reputation, the government, the church or the courtiers wouldn't have any valid argument to stop the marriage, or force the King to abdicate if he insisted on getting married. With Wallis, they had.
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  #2347  
Old 09-25-2022, 01:00 PM
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I still maintain the biggest argument against "they were trying to get rid of Edward VIII aside from Wallis" is that no one seems to have said "thank all the powers that be, Hallelujah, he's finally gone" once he actually departed. Not in their diaries, not in their private letters, nothing. You would think the so-called conspirators would have made mention of their success somehow.
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  #2348  
Old 09-25-2022, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
I still maintain the biggest argument against "they were trying to get rid of Edward VIII aside from Wallis" is that no one seems to have said "thank all the powers that be, Hallelujah, he's finally gone" once he actually departed. Not in their diaries, not in their private letters, nothing. You would think the so-called conspirators would have made mention of their success somehow.
Of course not. If there was a plan or even discussion about getting rid of him prior to the Wallis issue becoming the divorce issue, its over 80 years ago now and I'm sure it would have come out in diaries or govt papers. Noone WANTED the trauma of the abdication. but with Edw getting insistent that he would marry this divorced woman, who was alos American, and not really au fait with royal life, they felt they had to persaude him to give her up or go
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  #2349  
Old 10-06-2022, 02:28 PM
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One thing that never occurred to me previously is that Edward VIII would have inherited the bulk of George V's private fortune, including Sandringham and Balmoral.

Various sources note that these properties were purchased by George VI after the abdication. But how? Where would the second in line for the inheritance have obtained the finances to buy out the main heir? Was it paid for out of the Crown Estate?

Also, if the Duke of Windsor got anything like fair value for those properties (Balmoral Estate is the size of a small county) he would have been a remarkably wealthy fellow. But he doesn't seem to have been. He left an estate worth about a million pounds. Perhaps he made poor investments.
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  #2350  
Old 10-06-2022, 03:03 PM
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As to the second half, David had money, including the BRF payoff, but he also lived like a king in Paris, continuing to buy a fortune in jewelry for Wallis for the rest of his life.

Considering it's known that they received appearance fees for parties, it's more evidence that they were living outside their means.
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  #2351  
Old 10-06-2022, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
As to the second half, David had money, including the BRF payoff, but he also lived like a king in Paris, continuing to buy a fortune in jewelry for Wallis for the rest of his life.

Considering it's known that they received appearance fees for parties, it's more evidence that they were living outside their means.
They weren’t really broke. He was just an entitled twit. The rent on their grand Parisian mansion rent was very low, the city of Paris was very generous to them, and rich friends paid for his meals. Regarding some jewels, he sometimes didn’t pay them on time. He was truly afraid of being broke, but he just simply didn’t count his pennies like a normal person would. Queen Mary even gave the Duke of Windsor who gave Wallis a lovely pearl necklace. Plus they were always feted by Parisian high society and the jet set. Yes, the Duke of Windsor was a big spender, but he did not die a poor man’s death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daz_Voz View Post
One thing that never occurred to me previously is that Edward VIII would have inherited the bulk of George V's private fortune, including Sandringham and Balmoral.

Various sources note that these properties were purchased by George VI after the abdication. But how? Where would the second in line for the inheritance have obtained the finances to buy out the main heir? Was it paid for out of the Crown Estate?

Also, if the Duke of Windsor got anything like fair value for those properties (Balmoral Estate is the size of a small county) he would have been a remarkably wealthy fellow. But he doesn't seem to have been. He left an estate worth about a million pounds. Perhaps he made poor investments.
The Duke of Windsor was wealthy after the sales, but he simply spent money like nobody’s business. Either way, he didn’t die destitute. He and Wallis were enjoying life entertaining, jet-setting and buying expensive clothes, jewels etc.
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  #2352  
Old 10-06-2022, 07:06 PM
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Yes, I think the Windsors lived up to their income always. After the war there were many trans Atlantic trips on great ocean liners, a lot of entertaining done. Their status required a full staff always.

There were two properties the Windsors lived in in France. Even though their Paris home was leased at a pepper corn rent, there were still expenses, maintenance, replacement of fittings etc. And their country home and gardens would not have been cheap to maintain and keep running. Even in her widowhood, at a time when Wallis was bedridden and the Paris home practically shut up, there were still medical expenses, and a skeleton staff to be paid.


I read, perhaps in Shawcross, that the QM once remarked to a friend that the purchase of Balmoral and Sandringham from Edward had ‘kept them poor’ (the King and herself) for ‘a very long time’. Presumably the money to buy those private properties came via loans from discreet London bankers like Coutts.
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  #2353  
Old 10-06-2022, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daz_Voz View Post
One thing that never occurred to me previously is that Edward VIII would have inherited the bulk of George V's private fortune, including Sandringham and Balmoral.

Various sources note that these properties were purchased by George VI after the abdication. But how? Where would the second in line for the inheritance have obtained the finances to buy out the main heir? Was it paid for out of the Crown Estate?

Also, if the Duke of Windsor got anything like fair value for those properties (Balmoral Estate is the size of a small county) he would have been a remarkably wealthy fellow. But he doesn't seem to have been. He left an estate worth about a million pounds. Perhaps he made poor investments.
George V did leave his non-heir sons an cash inheritance. IIRC Edward VIII, despite inheriting the private property and kinda-sorta inheriting the crown property was upset that his father did not bequeath him a large cash sum. It later came to light that he was sitting on a big wad of cash accumulated from his Duchy of Cornwall income.

My take was that the deal made between the brothers was that Sandringham and Balmoral would be paid for by Edward getting an annuity, not by getting the full amount up front. The initial scheme was for the annuity to come from the civil list but the government balked at that so it did have to be privately funded by George VI.

I am a George VI admirer, but I just can't bring myself to feel too badly for him over having to pay his brother for Balmoral and Sandringham. First of all, he was in on the scheme to have Edward get income from the civil list and the civil list income count as payment for Balmoral and Sandringham. So in other words, the government was going to foot the bill for those properties to transfer from one brother to the other as private property. Secondly, George VI did inherit a substantial cash sum when his father died. Thirdly because his heir was both a child and female, the Duchy of Cornwall income went to the crown.

I can believe that there were financial uncertainties (by rich people standards) in the immediate aftermath of the abdication, but I believe that he was able to rebound / recoup and by the time of his death 14 years later he had accumulated considerable personal wealth and left his wife and heir well off.

Re Edward, he might have not left an impressive estate when he died, but Wallis left a good chunk of her estate to charity, and the auction of her items fetched ~ $50 million.
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  #2354  
Old 11-17-2022, 06:02 PM
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Richard Nixon with Edward and Wallis
http://www.gettyimages.com/license/615321228
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  #2355  
Old 11-26-2022, 03:34 PM
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Speaking of charming people, Ribbentrop wanted the Duke to come be a favourable witness for his intentions at Nuremberg. https://archive.ph/SM4NF
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