The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #2321  
Old 09-24-2022, 02:51 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissPeach77 View Post
I mean the religion of the royal family was basically formed by a King wanting to dump one wife and move on to another. I don't know why Edward was so ostracized for wanting to marry a divorcee.
In addition to what others have said, that's also a fairly reductive way of looking at 500 years of ecclesiastical and societal history in England. The Church Henry founded wasn't even the church his daughter Elizabeth left it let alone later. Nor is the RC church of today the same as it was in 1533.

Also during this time English/UK monarchs moved away from being absolute monarchs to constitutional ones. Several other monarchs would probably have unilaterally declared their marriages annulled if they could have.
Reply With Quote
  #2322  
Old 09-24-2022, 03:22 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 9,142
One of the main reasons why Edward was ostracised for wishing to marry Wallis Simpson was that she wasn’t divorced at the time the two of them started their affair. She continued in fact to live with her husband Ernest Simpson for years after the affair began.

The middle and working classes in England between the wars would have regarded that as disgraceful behaviour on all counts. They especially disliked the idea of divorce, and as both classes made up the majority of the British population as a whole their views had to be taken into account. There were also the views of the Realms to be considered.


Wallis’s nationality to a certain extent and her past history were held against her by those in the know. Also the fact that she had been married not once but twice, with both husbands living. She was regarded by many as an adventuress.
Reply With Quote
  #2323  
Old 09-24-2022, 04:18 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 14,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine View Post
George VI didn't abdicate. Edward VIII did. He also didn't have to abdicate. He had three choices; keep the crown and ditch Wallis, ditch the crown and keep Wallis, or marry her anyway and deal with the constitutional crisis that was sure to erupt.

He chose to abdicate because 1) he probably saw it as the best chance to save the monarchy and his family and 2) he was selfish and never showed any interest in being king and saw this as a way out. Also, the sovereign, be they male or female, is the Defender of the Faith and the head of the Church of England. He couldn't be King, anointed by the Church, and marry a divorcee, particularly since divorcees couldn't and still can't be married in the CoE. Hence why neither Charles nor Anne's second marriages were celebrated in the CoE. Anne married in the Church of Scotland, which permitted divorcees to remarry, and Charles had a civil wedding with an Anglican blessing afterward.
Incorrect - divorcees can marry in the CoE. That was changed in 2002.

They can't marry in the CoE if, in the opinion of the officiating minister, the divorce/s was/were caused by the relationship of the marrying couple.

My minister would happily have married Charles and Camilla in the CoE as he didn't believe that their affair contributed to the breakdown of either of their marriages - believing they were broken before their affair started.

The AoC had to also deal with the public's view and so advised a civil ceremony with a CoE blessing, which to all intents and purposes was a CoE marriage ... the words spoken at that ceremony were straight from the CoE marriage service.
Reply With Quote
  #2324  
Old 09-25-2022, 03:38 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ipswich, Australia
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissPeach77 View Post
I know back in the day divorce was looked upon much differently then today. If it weren't, then King George wouldn't have had to abdicate the throne to marry Wallis Simpson, while right now King Charles sits on the throne as a divorcee, married to a woman who is also a divorcee.

My question is, despite the times back then of divorce being more taboo, why was King George ever made to abdicate to marry Wallis Simpson? Wasn't a good part of the reason that Henry the VIII split from the Catholic Church, and The Church of England was ulitmately formed, due to the fact that Henry VIII wanted the church to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon, and the Pope refused to do it. Without an official annulment, he couldn't get married again. The Pope refused to grant the annulment on grounds of Catholic doctrine: marriage is for life and there was no theological reason to dissolve this one. Henry therefore named himself head of the church in England and annulled the marriage himself.

I mean the religion of the royal family was basically formed by a King wanting to dump one wife and move on to another. I don't know why Edward was so ostracized for wanting to marry a divorcee.
No-one was forced to abdicate the throne to marry Wallis Simpson. Edward VIII (not George VI who was the new King) CHOSE to abdicate the throne and chose to marry Wallis.
Reply With Quote
  #2325  
Old 09-25-2022, 04:05 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 14,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carin View Post
No-one was forced to abdicate the throne to marry Wallis Simpson. Edward VIII (not George VI who was the new King) CHOSE to abdicate the throne and chose to marry Wallis.
He was 'forced' to abdicate. The government had decided by the middle of the year that he had to go. The fact he wanted to marry a divorced who was in the process of a second divorce gave them the excuse they needed without causing too many issues and without telling the people the sorts of things he was doing that was close to, if not treason.

He was allowed to say he 'chose' to abdicate but the reality was that he was going to be forced out one way or another.
Reply With Quote
  #2326  
Old 09-25-2022, 04:22 AM
CyrilVladisla's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Conneaut, United States
Posts: 10,500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
One of the main reasons why Edward was ostracised for wishing to marry Wallis Simpson was that she wasn’t divorced at the time the two of them started their affair. She continued in fact to live with her husband Ernest Simpson for years after the affair began.

The middle and working classes in England between the wars would have regarded that as disgraceful behaviour on all counts. They especially disliked the idea of divorce, and as both classes made up the majority of the British population as a whole their views had to be taken into account. There were also the views of the Realms to be considered.


Wallis’s nationality to a certain extent and her past history were held against her by those in the know. Also the fact that she had been married not once but twice, with both husbands living. She was regarded by many as an adventuress.
I did not realize that Wallis's nationality of being an American was held against her. Did the nobility hold this against her?
Reply With Quote
  #2327  
Old 09-25-2022, 05:49 AM
Lilyflo's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,576
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
I did not realize that Wallis's nationality of being an American was held against her. Did the nobility hold this against her?
I've read and heard many times that the upper classes couldn't stand the prospect of an American Queen and the lower classes couldn't stand the thought of a divorced one.
Reply With Quote
  #2328  
Old 09-25-2022, 06:57 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 11,030
I think that's true, that working class people would disapprove of divorce, (they could not afford to get divorcd) and upper class people felt that as an American she was not quite quite and would not understand royal life.
Reply With Quote
  #2329  
Old 09-25-2022, 07:22 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,270
Quite a few American women had married into the British aristocracy. The Countess of Grantham in Downton Abbey is a famous fictional example! Real life examples include Jennie Jerome and Consuelo Vanderbilt. The Warfields of Baltimore weren't in their social league, admittedly, but I think an American woman might have been accepted had she not been a divorcee, and also not been having a full-on relationship with the Prince of Wales before they were married.

It would have been unexpected, but, had the Prince of Wales announced that he wanted to marry one of the Vanderbilts, say, and there had never been a breath of scandal attached to the woman concerned, I think the marriage would have been accepted.
Reply With Quote
  #2330  
Old 09-25-2022, 07:34 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 14,035
The marriage might have been accepted but then the government would have found another way to remove Edward. The government was determined he had to go and Wallis was simply the excuse they found.
Reply With Quote
  #2331  
Old 09-25-2022, 07:43 AM
Lilyflo's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: England, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
It would have been unexpected, but, had the Prince of Wales announced that he wanted to marry one of the Vanderbilts, say, and there had never been a breath of scandal attached to the woman concerned, I think the marriage would have been accepted.
Yes it would have been accepted because there could be no legal or rational argument against it but from my reading (and hearsay) on the subject, I think many of the upper classes and aristocracy would have loathed having to curtsey/bow to an American as their Queen, however scandal-free her background.
Reply With Quote
  #2332  
Old 09-25-2022, 08:56 AM
Blog Real's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lisboa, Portugal
Posts: 10,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The marriage might have been accepted but then the government would have found another way to remove Edward. The government was determined he had to go and Wallis was simply the excuse they found.
Yes, I also agree that the government would rather have George VI and Elizabeth on the throne (as later happened).
Wallis was their excuse to get Edward off the throne.
__________________
My blogs about monarchies
Reply With Quote
  #2333  
Old 09-25-2022, 09:37 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 11,030
there is no evidence that I know of, that the PTB /govt wanted to get rid of Edward at that stage. Wallis was the main reason. She was not acceptable to the public - or the upper classes, really. and at that stage the Church would not have accepted a divorced woman as queen...
Reply With Quote
  #2334  
Old 09-25-2022, 10:02 AM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 2,270
There were concerns about his political views, but there was never any suggestion of getting rid of him. How could there have been? It wasn't 1688. There was no way that they could have removed him. I think some people were probably very relieved when he chose to abdicate to be with Wallis, but she wasn't an excuse to get rid of him. She just wasn't acceptable to the society of the time. Divorce wasn't socially acceptable in 1936, for anyone, and especially the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

People might not have been overly keen on an American queen, but they would have accepted her, had she not been divorced and not been his mistress.
Reply With Quote
  #2335  
Old 09-25-2022, 10:23 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 11,030
I think that upper class people would have been judgy over an American qqeen, even if she was single, a quiet type and from a well bred well to do family... because the upper crust esp the ladies would think "How come an American has got him? Why not one of us?
and they mgiht think that an Americna would never quite fit in with the RF... but
Reply With Quote
  #2336  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:31 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 14,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
There were concerns about his political views, but there was never any suggestion of getting rid of him. How could there have been? It wasn't 1688. There was no way that they could have removed him. I think some people were probably very relieved when he chose to abdicate to be with Wallis, but she wasn't an excuse to get rid of him. She just wasn't acceptable to the society of the time. Divorce wasn't socially acceptable in 1936, for anyone, and especially the Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

People might not have been overly keen on an American queen, but they would have accepted her, had she not been divorced and not been his mistress.
There were discussions among government ministers and other members of the government (my great-uncle was one at the time) and it was on how to remove him. There was even discussion about revealing his lack of care about state secrets or finding some excuse to show him unsuitable. Then Wallis sued for her second divorce and they had their excuse.

It was certainly being discussed among ministers and others (not at any 'official meeting' of course) from about Easter and certainly by the summer of 1936.
Reply With Quote
  #2337  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:33 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2022
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
Quite a few American women had married into the British aristocracy. The Countess of Grantham in Downton Abbey is a famous fictional example! Real life examples include Jennie Jerome and Consuelo Vanderbilt. The Warfields of Baltimore weren't in their social league, admittedly, but I think an American woman might have been accepted had she not been a divorcee, and also not been having a full-on relationship with the Prince of Wales before they were married.

It would have been unexpected, but, had the Prince of Wales announced that he wanted to marry one of the Vanderbilts, say, and there had never been a breath of scandal attached to the woman concerned, I think the marriage would have been accepted.
The aristocracy is different ball game than the monarchy when it came to that, some members of the aristocracy were simply marrying for money. Royals could and did befriend, have affairs with some upper crust Americans as many have done, but marry at that time, unlikely.
Reply With Quote
  #2338  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:34 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 11,030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There were discussions among government ministers and other members of the government (my great-uncle was one at the time) and it was on how to remove him. There was even discussion about revealing his lack of care about state secrets or finding some excuse to show him unsuitable. Then Wallis sued for her second divorce and they had their excuse.

It was certainly being discussed among ministers and others (not at any 'official meeting' of course) from about Easter and certainly by the summer of 1936.
But Edward was involved iwth Wallis long before he became king.
Reply With Quote
  #2339  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:36 AM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 11,827
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
there is no evidence that I know of, that the PTB /govt wanted to get rid of Edward at that stage. Wallis was the main reason. She was not acceptable to the public - or the upper classes, really. and at that stage the Church would not have accepted a divorced woman as queen...
Make that a multi divorced non upper class American woman.

Edward VIII would have been her third husband. And her two prior husband's were still alive.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena

"If your dreams don't scare you, they are not big enough" Sir Sidney Poitier
1927-2022
Reply With Quote
  #2340  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:46 AM
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 11,030
wallis was upper class, and well of course her 2 husbands were still alive.. that was why she was divorced from them and not widowed.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
abdication, britain, duchess of windsor, duke of windsor, edward viii, king edward viii, wallis simpson


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Duchess of Windsor Jewellery micas Royal Jewels 221 08-17-2022 09:44 AM
The Duke of Windsor and Wallis Simpson - 3 June 1937 aussiechick12 Historical Royal Weddings 36 01-11-2022 05:29 PM
Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester and Miss Birgitte van Deurs: 8 July 1972 Scott Royal Weddings 17 08-15-2018 01:49 AM
Books on The Duke and Duchess of Windsor Duchess Royal Library 106 07-15-2013 12:49 PM
The Duke and Duchess of Gloucester Current Events 1: October 2003-January 2006 A.C.C. Current Events Archive 132 01-13-2006 10:37 PM




Popular Tags
africa albert prince consort all tags america arcadie arcadie claret austria british british royal family caribbean caroline charles iii claret congo current events danish royal family death denmark duarte pio duchess of kent edward vii elizabeth ii emperor naruhito empress masako garsenda genealogy general news grace kelly grimaldi hamdan bin ahmed history india introduction jewels jordan royal family king king charles king philippe king willem-alexander leopold ier matrilineal monaco monarchy mountbatten need help official visit order of precedence portugal prince albert monaco prince christian princess of orange queen alexandra queen camilla queen ena of spain queen margrethe ii queen mathilde queen maxima queen victoria republics restoration royal initials royal wedding silk spain spanish royal family state visit switzerland visit william woven


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:37 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2023
Jelsoft Enterprises