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  #1  
Old 07-22-2022, 09:34 PM
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Royalty/Nobility and Gender

For overall discussion of topics relating to gender.
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Old 07-22-2022, 09:37 PM
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Continued from a discussion in the Danish forum:


Quote:
Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
If Princess Isabella of Denmark marries at a young age and she marries a foreign prince or foreign aristocrat who would continue to live in his native country, how much would she be helping out with royal duties in Denmark?
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
-And if she does like her other great-aunt (Muhler, what is the Danish word for great-aunt?) and marries an aristocrat, why would it not be that that aristocrat would not come and live in Denmark?
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Isn't it because the European royal families continue to conform to the old patrilineal rule that the wife settles in her husband's country and not the other way around, unless the wife is the heiress to the throne?

Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier, Princess Madeleine of Sweden and Chris O'Neill, Prince Amedeo of Belgium and Lili Rosboch, Prince Harry of Wales and Meghan Markle: Even in relatively recent marriages, the old rule has still been complied with, whether the husband or the wife was the blood royal. I expect Princess Maria Laura of Belgium will also remain in the UK, where her future husband is from, instead of returning to Belgium as her brother did.
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Originally Posted by BriarRose View Post
I don't believe any of those did so out of conformity to a rule. It is apparent that Joachim and Marie wanted to remain in Denmark.

Rather, job opportunities (and strong personal preferences) appear to be the driving forces for the couples mentioned. Not conformity with arcane rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I agree. It is just about choices in life. The brothers of the Dutch King have lived in the Netherlands, the USA, Belgium, France, the UK, just corrresponding with their stage of life (study, work) and opportunities at that moment. Likewise Mabel and Laurentien have lived in the Netherlands, in Japan, in Belgium, in the UK.
But job opportunities, personal preferences and choices in life are sensitive to and affected by gender structures. When the given couples made their choice as to which country they would live in, they prioritized the husband's job or royal service over those of the wife.

Princes Joachim and Harry continued to represent the monarchy after marriage, whereas their wives renounced their premarital careers and relocated to their husbands' countries in order to work for their husbands' royal families.

Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill's moves to his native countries were explicitly announced as being motivated by his professional needs, whereas Princess Madeleine severely reduced her official program and her private work with her mother's foundation as a consequence.

The situation of the brothers of the Dutch king is quite different as they moved abroad before and not in connection with their marriages: Their wives were also Dutchwomen.
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Old 07-23-2022, 12:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Continued from a discussion in the Danish forum:












But job opportunities, personal preferences and choices in life are sensitive to and affected by gender structures. When the given couples made their choice as to which country they would live in, they prioritized the husband's job or royal service over those of the wife.

Princes Joachim and Harry continued to represent the monarchy after marriage, whereas their wives renounced their premarital careers and relocated to their husbands' countries in order to work for their husbands' royal families.

Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill's moves to his native countries were explicitly announced as being motivated by his professional needs, whereas Princess Madeleine severely reduced her official program and her private work with her mother's foundation as a consequence.

The situation of the brothers of the Dutch king is quite different as they moved abroad before and not in connection with their marriages: Their wives were also Dutchwomen.



Actually Prince Amedeo and his Family are living in Switzerland now.
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Old 07-23-2022, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Continued from a discussion in the Danish forum:












But job opportunities, personal preferences and choices in life are sensitive to and affected by gender structures. When the given couples made their choice as to which country they would live in, they prioritized the husband's job or royal service over those of the wife.

Princes Joachim and Harry continued to represent the monarchy after marriage, whereas their wives renounced their premarital careers and relocated to their husbands' countries in order to work for their husbands' royal families.

Princess Madeleine and Chris O'Neill's moves to his native countries were explicitly announced as being motivated by his professional needs, whereas Princess Madeleine severely reduced her official program and her private work with her mother's foundation as a consequence.

The situation of the brothers of the Dutch king is quite different as they moved abroad before and not in connection with their marriages: Their wives were also Dutchwomen.
Well with Harry and Meghan, Meghan wasn’t actively involved in acting around the time she was dating Harry. Princess Madeline could have easily left Sweden because she wasn’t the heir and Chris’s business affairs had something of a conflict of interest in Sweden.
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Old 07-23-2022, 08:31 AM
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Meghan was indeed ‘actively involved in acting’ while she was dating Harry. She wrapped up her scenes in Season 7 of Suits, shortly before she came to England to live in Nott Cott and became engaged to Harry in the November of 2017. She was in fact contracted to the show until shortly before her engagement.


https://people.com/tv/patrick-j-adam...-final-season/
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Old 07-24-2022, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Actually Prince Amedeo and his Family are living in Switzerland now.
Yes, and that is also a choice corresponding more to the husband's interests than the wife's. Basel is the location of Prince Amedeo's paternal investment firm, where he himself is now employed, and it is where he was raised until the age of seven. Princess Elisabetta, on the other hand, has no special connection to Switzerland.


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Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1 View Post
Princess Madeline could have easily left Sweden because she wasn’t the heir and Chris’s business affairs had something of a conflict of interest in Sweden.
All the same, if the genders had been reversed, the conflict of interest would most likely have been settled by the non-heir prince's Anglo-American businesswoman wife giving up her career upon marriage. Her brother Prince Carl Philip's girlfriend Sofia Hellqvist, who had established herself and worked in the United States for many years, immediately renounced her career and returned to Sweden once she began a relationship with the prince.
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Old 07-25-2022, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes, and that is also a choice corresponding more to the husband's interests than the wife's. Basel is the location of Prince Amedeo's paternal investment firm, where he himself is now employed, and it is where he was raised until the age of seven. Princess Elisabetta, on the other hand, has no special connection to Switzerland.




All the same, if the genders had been reversed, the conflict of interest would most likely have been settled by the non-heir prince's Anglo-American businesswoman wife giving up her career upon marriage. Her brother Prince Carl Philip's girlfriend Sofia Hellqvist, who had established herself and worked in the United States for many years, immediately renounced her career and returned to Sweden once she began a relationship with the prince.
it would make sense because some of the royals would be working and being high profile more would be expected. But for Chris, it was because the company that he never took on citizenship or permanently living in Sweden.
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Old 07-25-2022, 05:35 PM
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Sorry, I'm not clear on whom the first sentence refers to. Your second point is the one I was addressing in my previous post.
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  #9  
Old 07-25-2022, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes, and that is also a choice corresponding more to the husband's interests than the wife's. Basel is the location of Prince Amedeo's paternal investment firm, where he himself is now employed, and it is where he was raised until the age of seven. Princess Elisabetta, on the other hand, has no special connection to Switzerland.




All the same, if the genders had been reversed, the conflict of interest would most likely have been settled by the non-heir prince's Anglo-American businesswoman wife giving up her career upon marriage. Her brother Prince Carl Philip's girlfriend Sofia Hellqvist, who had established herself and worked in the United States for many years, immediately renounced her career and returned to Sweden once she began a relationship with the prince.
When did she leave New York and when did they start their relationship? I wasn't aware of any link between those two events.

Her royal biography is very vague and lacks this kind of detail - it just mentions that she studied "accounting with computer application, specialising in business development, at the Institute of English and Business in New York." (without any mention of graduation) and that she "also studied at YTTP, Yoga To The People, to become a certified yoga instructor. She was also involved in setting up a yoga centre." Again, rather vague and not necessarily indicative that she 'established herself' and worked their for many years and had a real career. Instead it mentions that she took various courses at Stockholm university (which according to some Swedish courses happened after she returned from New York - and while working as a waitress and model) and did voluntary work in Ghana (her voluntary work indeed seemed related to working on her profile as potential future wife of CP).
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Old 07-26-2022, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
When did she leave New York and when did they start their relationship? I wasn't aware of any link between those two events.
I reviewed the links to news reports posted in the couple's first thread on TRF to double-check. It seems that subsequent to the first reports of the romance in January 2010, the couple were regularly photographed with one another from April 2010 onwards, always in Sweden and sometimes at Prince Carl Philip's home. By September 2010 there were headlines expressly stating that the couple were living together (at the prince's residence).
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Old 07-26-2022, 08:41 PM
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So, the question is: when did she move back from New York? That could easily have been for a completely different reason than meeting CP. As far as I can tell we don't even know whether she had moved back to Sweden before meeting him or after meeting him. I cannot recall anyone else linking those two things to each other, so I am trying to find (indications of) the evidence that her relationship was the reason for her move.
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Old 07-26-2022, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
So, the question is: when did she move back from New York? That could easily have been for a completely different reason than meeting CP. As far as I can tell we don't even know whether she had moved back to Sweden before meeting him or after meeting him. I cannot recall anyone else linking those two things to each other, so I am trying to find (indications of) the evidence that her relationship was the reason for her move.
Interesting. I recall my overall impression from reading news reports as being that Sofia Hellqvist returned from New York to Sweden around the beginning of her relationship with Prince Carl Philip and cannot recall anyone else reporting an alternative timeframe. But your recollection is as good as mine.

Scanning through the aforementioned TRF thread, the Realtid article from June 2010 implies that she only recently returned from New York after two years in order to begin studying social entrepreneurship at Stockholm University. TRF member Boris (who was typically very reliable) also mentioned in 2011 that

Quote:
One of the less appealing stories which were in the press about her in fall last year [2010] was that she had intended to apply for a spot at a Swedish university upon returning from New York, but missed the deadline to hand in her paperwork, while at the same time trying to collect student's state benefits regardless."
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Old 07-27-2022, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Yes, and that is also a choice corresponding more to the husband's interests than the wife's. Basel is the location of Prince Amedeo's paternal investment firm, where he himself is now employed, and it is where he was raised until the age of seven. Princess Elisabetta, on the other hand, has no special connection to Switzerland.




All the same, if the genders had been reversed, the conflict of interest would most likely have been settled by the non-heir prince's Anglo-American businesswoman wife giving up her career upon marriage. Her brother Prince Carl Philip's girlfriend Sofia Hellqvist, who had established herself and worked in the United States for many years, immediately renounced her career and returned to Sweden once she began a relationship with the prince.
Amedeo and his wife aren’t working royals in Belgium and they are very well off, especially Lili’s family so that’s no issue or conflict of interest plus she’s a relatively young mother. Lili has relatives who live in Switzerland. As for Chris, he didn’t want Swedish citizenship or to be a working royal and Madeline is a junior royal so her leaving is not an issue. If the genders were reversed and the “female Anglo-American businesswoman” came in, I’m not necessarily sure because it depends on how highly ranked that person would be.
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Old 07-28-2022, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by SirGyamfi1 View Post
Amedeo and his wife aren’t working royals in Belgium and they are very well off, especially Lili’s family so that’s no issue or conflict of interest plus she’s a relatively young mother. Lili has relatives who live in Switzerland. As for Chris, he didn’t want Swedish citizenship or to be a working royal and Madeline is a junior royal so her leaving is not an issue. If the genders were reversed and the “female Anglo-American businesswoman” came in, I’m not necessarily sure because it depends on how highly ranked that person would be.
I wasn't saying there were issues with the working royals or conflicts of interests with Lili moving to Switzerland or Madeleine moving to America. I stated that most royal couples still conform to the old "rule" that the wife follows the residence of her husband and not the other way around, giving them and other couples as examples.
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Old 07-28-2022, 10:28 AM
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In October 1993,Viscount Linley now the second Earl of Snowdon married the Ango-Irish noble,Serena Alleyne Stanhope (daughter of the then Viscount Petersham)
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Old 07-28-2022, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I stated that most royal couples still conform to the old "rule" that the wife follows the residence of her husband and not the other way around, giving them and other couples as examples.
Might have something to do with the fact, that until recently all was in the most cases inherited by the oldest son... And it will stay that way for the most families, albeit in Sweden and so on the course has been changing - a female yoga instructor for the Prince, ok, but a male fitness trainer for the Princess...
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Old 07-28-2022, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I wasn't saying there were issues with the working royals or conflicts of interests with Lili moving to Switzerland or Madeleine moving to America. I stated that most royal couples still conform to the old "rule" that the wife follows the residence of her husband and not the other way around, giving them and other couples as examples.
Well it depends on the couples, the financial situation of the respective individuals, among other things.
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Old 07-28-2022, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Interesting. I recall my overall impression from reading news reports as being that Sofia Hellqvist returned from New York to Sweden around the beginning of her relationship with Prince Carl Philip and cannot recall anyone else reporting an alternative timeframe. But your recollection is as good as mine.

Scanning through the aforementioned TRF thread, the Realtid article from June 2010 implies that she only recently returned from New York after two years in order to begin studying social entrepreneurship at Stockholm University. TRF member Boris (who was typically very reliable) also mentioned in 2011 that
Thanks. So, it seems she had not been back in Sweden for a long time (probably in summer 2009 if she intended to start studying at Stockholm University in September - or earlier if she lived in New York for only 2 years; not exactly sure when she moved there). Nonetheless, my question was primarily about the reason for the move: so, the question remains whether she moved back because of CP as you claimed or moved back to Sweden for another reason (study for example), met CP and (not long after that) became his girlfriend.
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Old 07-28-2022, 08:54 PM
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Might have something to do with the fact, that until recently all was in the most cases inherited by the oldest son... And it will stay that way for the most families, albeit in Sweden and so on the course has been changing - a female yoga instructor for the Prince, ok, but a male fitness trainer for the Princess...
Indeed, and not only for oldest sons. Prince Carl Philip has received more in the way of inherited property than Princess Madeleine or the Crown Princess.


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Well it depends on the couples, the financial situation of the respective individuals, among other things.
Financial considerations also tilt the scale towards the wife being the partner to move. In the majority of couples the husband is higher-paid than the wife, and, as victor1319 pointed out, the men are more likely than the women to benefit from family inheritances.


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Thanks. So, it seems she had not been back in Sweden for a long time (probably in summer 2009 if she intended to start studying at Stockholm University in September - or earlier if she lived in New York for only 2 years; not exactly sure when she moved there). Nonetheless, my question was primarily about the reason for the move: so, the question remains whether she moved back because of CP as you claimed or moved back to Sweden for another reason (study for example), met CP and (not long after that) became his girlfriend.
I agree that the reason for the move cannot be proven one way or the other. However, the fact that, in the four years between her return to Sweden and her formal engagement to the prince, she did not engage in any professional work or training but devoted her time to courses, charity work and public activities similar to those of the queen and princesses, does in my view strongly indicate that she intended to give up her former life and career and take on her husband's status, which was the eventual outcome.
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Old 07-28-2022, 08:55 PM
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I don’t know whether this is an acceptable source for anything, but it does mention that CP and Sofia met in Sweden in 2009 and it ‘was love at first sight’. It also mentions Sofia’s stint in NY and what she did there.

https://www.independent.ie/style/cel...-34115266.html

5. The loved-up couple met on holiday in Bastad, Sweden in 2009 and described their meeting as “love at first sight.”
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