Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles

[Duc_et_Pair]

So that's:
-one Protestant guy who needed to ensure his spouse and all his descendants would be Catholic
-one mixed marriage overseen by the most egalitarian, ecumenical, and small-c catholic Belgian sovereigns by far, with the no-pressure approach then ending with Astrid converting anyway (imagine what King Baudouin would have been like with a Protestant mother)
-and Albert and Paola have been famously reconciled by the Church, something that hasn't even worked with JC and Sofia.

Everybody is quite right about the decline of religiosity and the Catholic Church in Europe, but that doesn't mean the family has gotten less Catholic or more liberal about it. Laurent would seem to be the biggest candidate for irreligiosity of them all, but the spiritual counseling he's received is noted with great value.

You know Gabriel's uncle Laurent wanted to covert to Islam? In an interview with La Dernière Heure in 2015 the Prince himself told about his passion for Islam and that he and his three children actively learn Arabic language and culture: "An immensely poetic language, so much more so than French". Including reading the Qu'ran because -according to Laurent- it is part of "world heritage".

Yes, we know about his friendship with "rock priest" Père Guy Gilbert but it all does not appear as "staunchly Catholic". That is to be praised, that one is open to all cultures and even Faiths by the way.

https://www.dhnet.be/actu/belgique/...t-apprennent-l-arabe-54e64d2c35701001a1d1b765

When Gabriel learns an Anglican British, or an Orthodox Serbian, or a Protestant Dutch partner: in all cases I expect religion not to be a decisive problem. In the end in essence it all goes about the same Father, the same Son and the same Holy Spirit.

 

[Prinsara]

Laurent says and does a lot of things, and possibly was immersing himself in Islam just to annoy the rest of the staunchly Catholic family. Protestantism not being as dramatic, you see.

He also probably could have gotten most of what he's gotten from Père Guy from a good therapist, but he chose and stuck with the priest. Handy.

When Gabriel learns an Anglican British, or an Orthodox Serbian, or a Protestant Dutch partner: in all cases I expect religion not to be a decisive problem. In the end in essence it all goes about the same Father, the same Son and the same Holy Spirit.

And since it's praised to be open to all Faiths, what happens if he picks a partner in a religion that isn't Christianity and doesn't end "the same way"?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Laurent says and does a lot of things, and possibly was immersing himself in Islam just to annoy the rest of the staunchly Catholic family. Protestantism not being as dramatic, you see.

He also probably could have gotten most of what he's gotten from Père Guy from a good therapist, but he chose and stuck with the priest. Handy.



And since it's praised to be open to all Faiths, what happens if he picks a partner in a religion that isn't Christianity and doesn't end "the same way"?

No idea. On itself any Belgian is free to marry any partner he/she wishes, of any gender or identity, of any Faith or without any Faith at all. Including Prince Gabriel. And his own father is the ultimate protector of all these laws and Freedoms so it would be weird when he blocks something which is perfectly allowed in Belgian laws he himself swore to uphold, to maintain and to defend.

 

[Mbruno]

I am not sure the Belgian royal family is "staunchly catholic". The Protestant Leopold l (who remained Protestant!), the marriage of Leopold III with the Protestant Astrid of Sweden and the stormy marital union of Albert II shows that the definition "catholic" has a pretty wide range.

The Catholic Church has made an immensely deep downfall and becomes more and more an irrelevance, a trend which is visible all over Europe. The times that the CVP (the Christian People's Party), the Catholic Church and their Catholic "pillar" (Catholic schools, Catholic unions, Catholic media, Catholic clubs) was alike a massive granite monolith in society, is long gone.

Leopold I was Protestant (Lutheran), but raised his children as Catholics. Astrid of Sweden was also Lutheran, but, unlike Leopold I, she converted to Catholicism. Apparently, she wanted to do it right after her marriage, but the Church didn't allow her as she should convert out of conviction and not by obligation (i.e. only because she had married into a Catholic royal family); eventually, she did convert and her Belgian in-laws were allegedly delighted that all members of the family then belonged to the same Church.

The Belgian royals are not always models of Christian virtue (as none of us are as we are all sinners), but it is apparent to me that they are practicing Catholics. THey would not be pleased for sure if Gabriel's children were raised as Protestants, or if Gabriel had to marry like Maxima in a Protestant ceremony. A Catholic wedding, I guess, would be out of question for Gabriel and Amalia, not least because they would have to committ to raising their children as Catholics too.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

When Gabriel of Belgium really loves Amalia, when he can plant the Saxe-Cobourgs on the Dutch throne and make his entrance in a wealthy family... He will not let himself stop because he is a Christian on the Catholic side and she is a Christian on the Reformed side...

Remember the words of Gabriel's far ancestor Henri IV: Paris vaut bien une Messe...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The King and Queen appointed the Protestant Crown Princess of Sweden as a godmother to their younger daughter and they themselves are godparents to Muslim and Jewish children (who were bestowed the honor as seventh consecutive sons or consecutive daughters, following a tradition of the Belgian monarchy). They also selected the name Gabriel for their son because of its place in Jewish and Muslim as well as Christian traditions.

Zweites Baby für Belgiens Thronfolger: «Er hat enorm große Hände»

Brüssel (dpa) - Die belgische Prinzessin Mathilde (30), Ehefrau von Thronfolger Prinz Philippe (43), hat an diesem Mittwoch einen gesunden Jungen zur Welt gebracht. Das vier Kilo schwere Baby hat nach Angaben des Palastes blaue Augen und blondes Haar, doch der stolze Vater hob andere Eigenschaften seines ersten Sohnes hervor: «Gabriel hat enorm große Hände und große Füße», sagte Prinz Philippe nach der Geburt. «Er dürfte also ein kräftiger Junge werden.»

Den Namen Gabriel, der im belgischen Königshaus bisher nicht gebräuchlich ist, wählten Mathilde und Philippe nach Darstellung des Prinzen, weil sie ihn besonders schön finden. «Aber auch, weil er in drei religiösen Traditionen wurzelt - im Judentum, im Christentum und im Islam», sagte der Thronfolger im multikulturellen Belgien.

Das Neugeborene ist nach seinem Vater Philippe und seiner Schwester Elisabeth, die im Oktober ihren zweiten Geburtstag feiert, die Nummer Drei in der Thronfolge. Damit schwinden die Chancen der anderen Kinder von König Albert II., Prinzessin Astrid und Prinz Laurent, einmal den belgischen Thron zu besteigen. König Albert II. und Königin Paola brachen ihren Urlaub in Südfrankreich ab, um ihr siebtes Enkelkind in Augenschein zu nehmen.

In den Nachrichtensendungen von Rundfunk und Fernsehen in Belgien war die Geburt des kleinen Prinzen am Mittwoch das Hauptthema. Viele Bürger hängten Belgiens schwarz-gelb-rote Fahne aus dem Fenster und Premierminister Guy Verhofstadt sandte den Eltern im Namen der gesamten Bevölkerung seine Glückwünsche. Er hoffe, das neue Mitglied der königlichen Familie werde immer mit dem außergewöhnlich schönen und langen Sommer seines Geburtsjahres in Verbindung gebracht, fügte der Regierungschef hinzu.

© dpa - Meldung vom 20.08.2003 17:38 Uhr

web.de

 

[rominet09]

I think they are too young to talk about marriage.

 

[lucien]

Perhaps because it hardly ever happened in the past 6 or 7 decades. I think royal people are relieved beyond imagination they do not "have to" marry a cousin or something like that they had to over hundreds of years.

Indeed.And so be it.Let the rags invent whatever they want,and let anyone,especially Royals,do whatever they like whenever.Make belief stories are far below most with a extra grey cell.And there will be a lot of these bogus stories all the time.Unfortunately.Leave these kids alone!

 

[maria-olivia]

I stand with Lucien !

 

[wartenberg7]

I would love it as well. They both are well brought up, discreet, attractive. But they are both too young to take such a rumor seriously right now.
There is also the issue of Gabriel's staunchly Catholic family. But maybe Gabriel could follow the example of Queen Maxima and agree to raise the Dutch Royal heirs Protestant...he would frankly have no choice on the matter...but remain Catholic himself.

I remember when I was a kid, Prince Charles was linked to Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg and with Caroline of Monaco. Later the yellow press heard wedding bells for CP Frederik and Martha Louise of Norway, Prince William and Madeleine of Sweden...? I think the list could go on and on. This is just ridiculous!

 

[JR76]

I remember when I was a kid, Prince Charles was linked to Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg and with Caroline of Monaco. Later the yellow press heard wedding bells for CP Frederik and Martha Louise of Norway, Prince William and Madeleine of Sweden...?[emoji38] I think the list could go on and on. This is just ridiculous!

The story about Charles and Marie-Astrid was planted by Buckingham palace to find out who was leaking stories to the press.

 

[Prinsara]

And I think based on the photos of the time ML did seem to have a crush on Frederik.

 

[wartenberg7]

And I think based on the photos of the time ML did seem to have a crush on Frederik.

Well, one person being "in love" won´t be enough - if she ever was. Women smiling friendly at men are often considered as having "a crush" on him, even if they are just polite or kind. And having a crush, even if both people felt the same, would hardly be the enough to run a successful, longlasting marriage, which Frederik found in his REAL wife, which is even nowadays expected of senior royal members, especially monarchs, by the public!

 

[Prinsara]

Well, one person being "in love" won´t be enough - if she ever was. Women smiling friendly at men are often considered as having "a crush" on him, even if they are just polite or kind. And having a crush, even if both people felt the same, would hardly be the enough to run a successful, longlasting marriage, which Frederik found in his REAL wife, which is even nowadays expected of senior royal members, especially monarchs, by the public!

And this has what to do with Gabriel potentially dating Amalia again?

When a picture like this turns up (or the kids actually say something), then there'll be room to talk. Until then we speculate about what if's.

For what it's worth, given that the source of the speculation is an Argentinian tabloid, I would take the theoretical romance with a whole shaker of salt.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Most likely Prince Gabriel will not date his "neighbour", the Princess of Orange. I really would love to see such a traditional alliance because what makes royal families still royal has extremely been watered down.

Probably the majority on this forum would cheer when Prince Gabriel would date a tatooed ex-felon working as a fashion model or something because hey, isn't that the ultimate proof that monarchy is progressive and coping with times?

What intrigues royal and noble families is the fine web, the invisible layer in society, which has been spun in generations. It adds to fascination, to imagination. Of course Prince Gabriel can date a sans-papier working as a cleaner and living in a squatted derelict house in Molenbeek-Saint-Jean. Aaaaaaaw, how utterly romantic, a Cinderella - from squatted house to the Palais Royal! Maybe they can sell the storyline to Walt Disney?

There is absurd talk about "enforced marriages with inbred cousins" on these boards. As if Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and Olga of Greece was enforced. As if Astrid de Belgique and Lorenz of Austria-Este was enforced. As if Aloïs von und zu Liechtenstein and Sophie in Bayern was enforced.

No. They just found a partner in their traditional milieu. And no one of them is inbreeding at all. The shared DNA between Gabriel and Amalia is almost zero. If Gabriel would marry the (much older) Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg (second cousin as her grandmother was Gabriel's great-aunt), still the shared DNA is only somewhere in the 2.85% - 5.04% range.

 

[Biri]

He could marry also Princess Alexandra of Hannover, she converted to Roman Catholicism a few years ago.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

He could marry also Princess Alexandra of Hannover, she converted to Roman Catholicism a few years ago.

That would be a dynastically most interesting match. Also because he is a Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha (which occupies the British throne right now) marrying a Hannover (mirroring Victoria & Albert).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Most likely Prince Gabriel will not date his "neighbour", the Princess of Orange. I really would love to see such a traditional alliance because what makes royal families still royal has extremely been watered down.

Probably the majority on this forum would cheer when Prince Gabriel would date a tatooed ex-felon working as a fashion model or something because hey, isn't that the ultimate proof that monarchy is progressive and coping with times?

What intrigues royal and noble families is the fine web, the invisible layer in society, which has been spun in generations. It adds to fascination, to imagination. Of course Prince Gabriel can date a sans-papier working as a cleaner and living in a squatted derelict house in Molenbeek-Saint-Jean. Aaaaaaaw, how utterly romantic, a Cinderella - from squatted house to the Palais Royal! Maybe they can sell the storyline to Walt Disney?

There is absurd talk about "enforced marriages with inbred cousins" on these boards. As if Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and Olga of Greece was enforced. As if Astrid de Belgique and Lorenz of Austria-Este was enforced. As if Aloïs von und zu Liechtenstein and Sophie in Bayern was enforced.

No. They just found a partner in their traditional milieu. And no one of them is inbreeding at all. The shared DNA between Gabriel and Amalia is almost zero. If Gabriel would marry the (much older) Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg (second cousin as her grandmother was Gabriel's great-aunt), still the shared DNA is only somewhere in the 2.85% - 5.04% range.

See Marriage to Commoners vs Royals/Nobles for my reply as this issue also relates to other royals than Prince Gabriel and his siblings.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

What intrigues royal and noble families is the fine web, the invisible layer in society, which has been spun in generations. It adds to fascination, to imagination. Of course Prince Gabriel can date a sans-papier working as a cleaner and living in a squatted derelict house in Molenbeek-Saint-Jean. Aaaaaaaw, how utterly romantic, a Cinderella - from squatted house to the Palais Royal! Maybe they can sell the storyline to Walt Disney?

There is absurd talk about "enforced marriages with inbred cousins" on these boards. As if Aimone di Savoia-Aosta and Olga of Greece was enforced. As if Astrid de Belgique and Lorenz of Austria-Este was enforced. As if Aloïs von und zu Liechtenstein and Sophie in Bayern was enforced.

No. They just found a partner in their traditional milieu. And no one of them is inbreeding at all. The shared DNA between Gabriel and Amalia is almost zero. If Gabriel would marry the (much older) Princess Alexandra of Luxembourg (second cousin as her grandmother was Gabriel's great-aunt), still the shared DNA is only somewhere in the 2.85% - 5.04% range

With the last two paragraphs, I agree. I would be delighted to see a senior royal marry a person who had worked all their life as a cleaner or experienced poverty, homelessness or statelessness, but even in the "egalitarian" monarchies of Europe, the likelihood of it happening in the next generation is lower than the odds of even a royal-royal marriage (particularly if members of dethroned houses or the extended family members of royal houses are "counted" as royal). One only needs to compare the numbers of royals or semi-royals in the royals' social circles to the number of working- or lower-class persons.




May I suggest to the moderation team that this thread be merged with this one, as they seem to cover the same ground?

Marriage Between Royalty And Commoners

 

[Mbruno]

With the last paragraph, I agree. I would be delighted to see a senior royal marry a person who had worked all their life as a cleaner or experienced poverty, homelessness or statelessness, but even in the "egalitarian" monarchies of Europe, the likelihood of it happening in the next generation is lower than the odds of even a royal-royal marriage (particularly if members of dethrones houses or the extended family members of royal houses are "counted" as royal). One only needs to compare the numbers of royals or semi-royals in the royals' social circles to the number of working- or lower-class persons.




May I suggest to the moderation team that this thread be merged with this one, as they seem to cover the same ground?

Marriage Between Royalty And Commoners

I suppose senior members of deposed royal houses often stick with dynastic marriages because they might think that unequal marriages might "devalue their brand"; many of their (minority) royalist supporters are also traditionalists who cling to old laws/customs about equal marriages and still expect deposed royals to abide by them. In same cases, however, there may be also money or property rghts involved as some assets may be linked to the headship of the House, which in turn may be lost according to house rules in the case of morganatic marriages. I don't know, however, to what extent such house rules would be legal under existing civil law in the European republics, but I would be interested to know.

Nevertheless, even among non-reigning royals, we are now seeing an increasing number of unequal marriages (e.g. in the case of the Orléans, the Savoys, the Greek royal family, the Braganzas, the Bourbon-Parme, etc.)

 

[Durham]

Hadn't really thought about it, but imo you have a good point making this distinction. F.i. in the NL where the difference between "classes" is very small (if even at all existant anymore), the commoners that married in the RF are definitely not from a "low income" background, but are actually from quite well to do families, f.i. policians (on national or european level).
And indeed, they would nowadays mingle in the same circles as royals, so it's no surprise that marriages occur.

Although much more meritocratic than it once was there are still entrenched elements of a class system in the UK, especially in England. The way you pronounce words, indeed what words you actually use, & where you went to school can be subtle indicators of your position in an invisible system.

When a close relative of the monarch marries a Briton who went to a state school that will be a strong signal that class barriers are breaking down.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I remember when I was a kid, Prince Charles was linked to Marie-Astrid of Luxembourg and with Caroline of Monaco. Later the yellow press heard wedding bells for CP Frederik and Martha Louise of Norway, Prince William and Madeleine of Sweden...? I think the list could go on and on. This is just ridiculous!

William of Wales and Madeleine of Sweden were my dream couple. She was the most beautiful young Protestant princess in Europe and William was at one time very handsome.

Oh well.

 

[Mbruno]

William of Wales and Madeleine of Sweden were my dream couple. She was the most beautiful young Protestant princess in Europe and William was at one time very handsome.

Oh well.

Besides, they were born only 11 days apart ! I am not sure how the British public would react to a foreign princess as potential future queen though. There hasn't been one since Alexandra of Denmark more than 100 years ago.

Overall, I think royal brides/grooms have an easier learning curve. Princes or princesses like Gabriel or Madeleine grew up in a royal court and are used to official royal events (especially after they turn 18), and to the type of media attention that royals get. So marrying into another RF and taking up a full-time royal job wouldn't be a completely new lifestyle for them as it iwas for example for Letizia, Maxima, Mary, Kate or Daniel. On the other hand, each RF has its own traditions and different ways of doing the job and there may be a culture clash when a foreign royal is brought into the fold. And they may be less inclined to "do as they are told" in the way non-royals like Kate and Daniel seem to be (not to belittle them, but they strike me as being more complacent than Madeleine for example would be; I can't tell about Gabriel).

 

[Prinsara]

but they strike me as being more complacent than Madeleine for example would be; I can't tell about Gabriel).

Madeleine has apparently never been complacent about much.

 

[MAfan]

Since it appears that the topic of this thread is being discussed in two different threads, the Mod team has decided to keep the discussion in one place only, to avoid duplications and confusion.
Therefore the present thread is to be closed and the discussion can be continued in the Marriage to commoners vs Royals/Nobles thread.
Thank you for understanding.

 

[rob2008]

He could marry also Princess Alexandra of Hannover, she converted to Roman Catholicism a few years ago.

I doubt that Mountbatten wanted Princess Anne to marry Crown Prince Carl Gustaf in the late 60s/ early 70s. They are so very different. I don't think she would have appreciated his roving eye.

 

[Prinsara]

I think this thread is getting helter-skelter off-topic and we might need another one for "Potential Royal Matches".

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think this thread is getting helter-skelter off-topic and we might need another one for "Potential Royal Matches".

Biri's post and many others were originally posted in the topic for Prince Gabriel of Belgium. But there are at least two threads devoted to royal-royal marriages if that is the topic you are contemplating.

Royal-Royal Marriages Today
Marriages Between Royals

 

[Prinsara]

Biri's post and many others were originally posted in the topic for Prince Gabriel of Belgium. But there are at least two threads devoted to royal-royal marriages if that is the topic you are contemplating.

Royal-Royal Marriages Today
Marriages Between Royals

Yes, and that post was originally in the Belgian thread before everything was moved.

Thank you for letting me know there is a thread on the major topic of the moved discussion.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Apologies, I must have missed it.

I doubt that Mountbatten wanted Princess Anne to marry Crown Prince Carl Gustaf in the late 60s/ early 70s. They are so very different. I don't think she would have appreciated his roving eye.

I think this is the post you meant to quote:

The alleged Mountbatten push for Princess Anne to become Queen of Sweden was supposedly made in the late sixties before Crown Prince Carl Gustav met his future wife. At the time he's said to have been involved with the French aristocrat Milly De Grasset but the relationship was vetoed by his grandfather. King Gustav Adolf, Princess Sibylla, Queen Elizabeth and Prince Philip are all said to have been in favour of the match but the three parents didn't want to push the youngsters into something against their own free will. Princess Sibylla even said in an interview with a Swedish magazine that she hoped her son would marry a Swedish girl which, with one possible exception, would indicate that she was in favour of changing the rules regarding equal marriages.

For JR76: Who or what was the exception you were referring to?