The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #1  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:28 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
Posts: 3
If Charles dies before the queen

Hello
New here, and want to ask a question I have with royalty.

If Charles dies before the queen, William would be next inline correct? Why, how long has this been in place as I thought it was the oldest child (boy until recently) would become king/queen. Has this changed, or is this always been true?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:35 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torrance, United States
Posts: 4,840
Yes should Charles pass before his mother then his eldest child, William, is first in line to the throne followed by his three children: George, Charlotte and Louis. After that it continues with Harry, Archie, Andrew, etc...The new succession rules were put into place in 2013.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:51 AM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaogier View Post
Hello
New here, and want to ask a question I have with royalty.

If Charles dies before the queen, William would be next inline correct? Why, how long has this been in place as I thought it was the oldest child (boy until recently) would become king/queen. Has this changed, or is this always been true?
It has always been the way. If the heir dies,a brother only inherited the throne, if the heir was unmarried and had no legal heirs.

And a throne could pass to a sister if they had no children or brothers.

It has happened before. George III succeeded his grandfather George II in 1760 as his father Frederick had died 1751. Despite the fact Frederick had a living younger brother William, Duke of Cumberland (as well as 2 living sisters).

Further back we have Richard II who came to the throne after the death of his grandfather Edward III in 1377. His own father Edward the Black Prince had died the previous year. This is despite the fact that his Uncles John of Gaunt, Edmund of Langley and Thomas of Woodstock were all alive and could have succeeded their father instead.

The throne passes to the closest blood kid in a direct line. So if the eldest son of the monarch has a legal child, they are in the direct line. It only branches off when the direct line dies out. If Charles had died before he married, then Andrew would have succeeded the throne when his mother died.

That continues. If Charles and William were to die in a freak accident next week, George would be heir.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-06-2021, 11:56 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaogier View Post
Hello
New here, and want to ask a question I have with royalty.

If Charles dies before the queen, William would be next inline correct? Why, how long has this been in place as I thought it was the oldest child (boy until recently) would become king/queen. Has this changed, or is this always been true?
Welcome to the forum, Gaogier. That is a good question.

Since you mention Charles and William I presume you are referring to the British queen. As a matter of fact, she is not "the (only) queen" at the moment, as a queen also occupies the throne of Denmark.

As it stands now, the rules of succession in all hereditary European monarchies are determined by two essential principles. As you stated, the first is the rule that birth order determines precedence. The second is that a child is the heir of their parent (or any other direct ancestor), and upon the death of a parent, his or her rights to the throne are transferred to his or her descendant(s).

Thus, if Charles dies while he is the heir to the throne, his dynastic rights as the oldest son pass to his own oldest son William, who will inherit the throne as if he himself were the oldest son of Queen Elizabeth.

I am not sure how long this system has been in place in the UK, but I recommend researching the laws of property inheritance in England as they are the foundation of the laws of succession to the British crown.


There is a thread dedicated to British line of succession here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...one-44513.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
It has always been the way.
No, not always. As with much of British common law, the laws of inheritance developed over time.

See this research briefing for information.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
The new succession rules were put into place in 2013.
The bill was passed in 2013 but only came into force in 2015.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:15 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
Posts: 3
Ah, so if say Charles had a child out of wedlock before William, say joe, even though joe is Charles oldest son, it will be William who would still become king. Would joe be able to contest this?

And yes I mean the queen of the United Kingdom and other commonwealth nations as I am british when I say queen I mean Queen Elizabeth II
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:26 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaogier View Post
Ah, so if say Charles had a child out of wedlock before William, say joe, even though joe is Charles oldest son, it will be William who would still become king. Would joe be able to contest this?

No, he would not. Illegitimate children are excluded from the line of succession to the Crown.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:30 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaogier View Post
Ah, so if say Charles had a child out of wedlock before William, say joe, even though joe is Charles oldest son, it will be William who would still become king. Would joe be able to contest this?
I am not aware of any rule which would immediately disqualify Joe from filing a lawsuit to contest the Act of Settlement (the statute which formalized the limitation to children born in wedlock), although my knowledge of this subject is limited.

However, I think his probability of success would be dim. The similar rules which regulate succession to British peerages have not been successfully contested so far, whether in court or in Parliament.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:30 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Portsmouth, United Kingdom
Posts: 3
Thank you all from answering my question... if I think of anything else or another question I shall be back
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:42 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: alberta, Canada
Posts: 12,726
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Welcome to the forum, Gaogier. That is a good question.

Since you mention Charles and William I presume you are referring to the British queen. As a matter of fact, she is not "the (only) queen" at the moment, as a queen also occupies the throne of Denmark.

As it stands now, the rules of succession in all hereditary European monarchies are determined by two essential principles. As you stated, the first is the rule that birth order determines precedence. The second is that a child is the heir of their parent (or any other direct ancestor), and upon the death of a parent, his or her rights to the throne are transferred to his or her descendant(s).

Thus, if Charles dies while he is the heir to the throne, his dynastic rights as the oldest son pass to his own oldest son William, who will inherit the throne as if he himself were the oldest son of Queen Elizabeth.

I am not sure how long this system has been in place in the UK, but I recommend researching the laws of property inheritance in England as they are the foundation of the laws of succession to the British crown.


There is a thread dedicated to British line of succession here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...one-44513.html




No, not always. As with much of British common law, the laws of inheritance developed over time.

See this research briefing for information.




The bill was passed in 2013 but only came into force in 2015.

Did I say that the gender laws had not changed

What I was talking about was the line of succession. In that a son of the Prince of Wales does not lose his place in succession if his father dies before ascending the throne. He simply moves up a place into first in line for the throne. This has been the practice for centuries. And nothing about the 2013 laws changes this, except allowing women to be infront of men if born before them.

The question was why is a grandson of Queen Elizabeth ahead of a son.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:48 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,799
Just an interesting tidbit should Charles die before Queen Elizabeth II. William then would become the Queen's heir apparent but he would not be able to inherit his father's Duke of Cornwall title. In order to be the Duke of Cornwall, he would have to be the eldest living son of the monarch and the heir apparent. William is the Queen's grandson. He also would not automatically inherit the Prince of Wales title either. The Queen would have to invest William to that role.

So, at the time of Charles' death, William would most likely remain The Duke of Cambridge. If things go as things normally do with the Queen passing and Charles becoming King, William would automatically then become The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge. Charles most likely would invest him as Prince of Wales also in due time.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:48 PM
QueenMathilde's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 715
Yes I got in a bit of an argument with some Brits who insisted that Andrew would become next in line if Charles died or abdicated. I didn't think that was right.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:55 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,799
It's kind of nice to know that Andrew is quite far down the line. Charles, William, George, Charlotte, Louis, Harry and Archie would all have to meet their maker before Andrew would sit on the throne.

We can all breathe a collective sigh of relief now.

ETA: Ooops. Forgot George!!! How could I forget George!
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-06-2021, 12:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Did I say that the gender laws had not changed

[...]

The question was why is a grandson of Queen Elizabeth ahead of a son.
I was not talking about gender in my response to you, but about the common-law rule of a grandson by an older son inheriting ahead of a younger son.

If you read the link in my response, you will see that it is about the general subject of succession to the crown.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-06-2021, 01:40 PM
QueenMathilde's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 715
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Just an interesting tidbit should Charles die before Queen Elizabeth II. William then would become the Queen's heir apparent but he would not be able to inherit his father's Duke of Cornwall title. In order to be the Duke of Cornwall, he would have to be the eldest living son of the monarch and the heir apparent. William is the Queen's grandson. He also would not automatically inherit the Prince of Wales title either. The Queen would have to invest William to that role.

So, at the time of Charles' death, William would most likely remain The Duke of Cambridge. If things go as things normally do with the Queen passing and Charles becoming King, William would automatically then become The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge. Charles most likely would invest him as Prince of Wales also in due time.



Interesting. Would William become the Prince of Wales if Charles died before the queen? Not that any of us are wishing Charles dead.


ETA Oh I see you answered my question. Charles would have to make William Prince of Wales then?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-06-2021, 02:12 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 6,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

As it stands now, the rules of succession in all hereditary European monarchies are determined by two essential principles. As you stated, the first is the rule that birth order determines precedence. The second is that a child is the heir of their parent (or any other direct ancestor), and upon the death of a parent, his or her rights to the throne are transferred to his or her descendant(s).

In the southern European monarchies, the first principle you described is called the rule of primogeniture while the second is referred to as the principle of "representation". Is the latter term also used in northern Europe?


Examples



Quote:

Portuguese constititution of 1838


ARTIGO 96º — A sucessão da Coroa segue a ordem regular de primogenitura e representação entre os legítimos descendentes da Rainha actual, a Senhora D. Maria II; preferindo sempre a linha anterior às posteriores; na mesma linha, o grau mais próximo ao mais remoto; no mesmo grau, o sexo masculino ao feminino; e no mesmo sexo, a pessoa mais velha à mais nova.

Quote:
Spanish constitution of 1876


Art. 60 – La sucesión al Trono de España seguirá el orden regular de primogenitura y representación, siendo preferida siempre la línea anterior a las posteriores; en la misma línea, el grado más próximo al más remoto; en el mismo grado, el varón a la hembra, y en el mismo sexo, la persona de más edad a la de menos.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-06-2021, 02:12 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 15,799
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
Interesting. Would William become the Prince of Wales if Charles died before the queen? Not that any of us are wishing Charles dead.


ETA Oh I see you answered my question. Charles would have to make William Prince of Wales then?
Yeps. Prince of Wales is not a title that is automatically inherited. One has to be created and invested to that role. Charles was created Prince of Wales at a young age in 1958 but actually invested as Prince of Wales in a investiture in Wales in 1969.
__________________
To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make you something else is the greatest accomplishment. ~~ Ralph Waldo Emerson ~~
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-06-2021, 02:25 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
Interesting. Would William become the Prince of Wales if Charles died before the queen? Not that any of us are wishing Charles dead.


ETA Oh I see you answered my question. Charles would have to make William Prince of Wales then?



If Prince Charles died before the Queen he can not create William Prince of Wales but it is likely that the Queen will then do it. This wase the case for the future George III. He was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather George II. after the death of his father.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-06-2021, 02:43 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In the southern European monarchies, the first principle you described is called the rule of primogeniture while the second is referred to as the principle of "representation". Is the latter term also used in northern Europe?


Examples [...]
The Dutch Constitution employs the term "plaatsvervulling", which I believe would directly translate as "representation", although the official English translation uses a more liberal translation of Article 25.

Quote:
25. Erfopvolging

Het koningschap gaat bij overlijden van de Koning krachtens erfopvolging over op zijn wettige nakomelingen, waarbij het oudste kind voorrang heeft, met plaatsvervulling volgens dezelfde regel. Bij gebreke van eigen nakomelingen gaat het koningschap op gelijke wijze over op de wettige nakomelingen eerst van zijn ouder, dan van zijn grootouder, in de lijn van erfopvolging, voor zover de overleden Koning niet verder bestaand dan in de derde graad van bloedverwantschap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Yeps. Prince of Wales is not a title that is automatically inherited. One has to be created and invested to that role. Charles was created Prince of Wales at a young age in 1958 but actually invested as Prince of Wales in a investiture in Wales in 1969.
Which was atypical, since most eldest sons of British monarchs in modern times have been created Prince of Wales much sooner after becoming first in line to the throne.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-06-2021, 03:02 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 5,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
Interesting. Would William become the Prince of Wales if Charles died before the queen? Not that any of us are wishing Charles dead.


ETA Oh I see you answered my question. Charles would have to make William Prince of Wales then?
The queen would have to make William prince of Wales if his father would die before his grandmother (and if she wanted him to have that title); the same applies to Charles once he becomes king.

The main difference is: William will automatically be Duke of Cornwall the moment of the queen's death (as his father is the new king at that point).

William won't be Duke of Cornwall if his father dies first as he won't be the monarch's eldest son.

In both cases the title of Prince of Wales is to be bestowed upon him if the monarch wishes his/her direct heir to carry that title.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 02-06-2021, 03:05 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 5,649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
In the southern European monarchies, the first principle you described is called the rule of primogeniture while the second is referred to as the principle of "representation". Is the latter term also used in northern Europe?


Examples
Also of importance: an unborn child is included in the line of succession (especially important if said child would be the eldest child (or eldest son, depending on the law) of the monarch) but if he/she dies before birth is presumed to never have existed.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pictures of Queen Silvia before her Marriage Josefine King Carl XVI Gustaf and Queen Silvia 90 08-29-2020 06:09 AM
Pictures of Queen Máxima before her marriage sky King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 21 08-23-2020 09:23 PM
"Harry & Charles" (2009) – NRK miniseries on Haakon VII and Queen Maud before Norway Prinsara The Electronic Domain 28 03-24-2020 10:40 PM
Queen Rania before her marriage papillon King Abdullah and Queen Rania and Family 66 01-11-2015 04:08 PM




Popular Tags
abdication american anastasia 2020 baby names bridal gown british royal family british royals canada carolin china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing coronavirus countess of snowdon cpr dna dresses dubai duke of sussex emperor facts fantasy movie gradenigo hereditary grand duke guillaume history hochberg house of windsor hypothetical monarchs intro italian royal family jewellery king willem-alexander list of rulers mary: crown princess of denmark meghan markle monarchy nepalese royal jewels northern ireland pless prince charles of luxembourg prince constantijn prince dimitri princess ariane princess catharina-amalia princess dita princess eugenie queen consort queen elizabeth ii queen mathilde queen maxima random facts resusci anne royal court royal dress-ups royal jewels royal marriage royal re-enactments. royalty of taiwan royal wedding royal wedding gown serbian royal family stuart sussex swedish queen thailand thai royal family tips tradition uae customs united states united states of america von hofmannsthal


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:07 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×